Personality/experience Trumps Education?

[ricco67]

This is somewhat related to the "Degrees" topic.

As you guys know, I'm doing a major dive and switching careers. While I'm not really worried about needing to start at the bottom as I've usually doubled my income and jumped several levels inside of 3-5 years in the past; I would be lying if I didn't have some heebie jeebies about the situation.

The conversations I had with a former employer, friends, and a current client gave me some interesting food for thought.

They have are all mentioned that anyone can really talk themselves into a job if they have make the right connection to the employer and/or interviewee and have given me a couple of examples:

One was how a person walks into an interview and the perspective interviewer is somehow turns the entire thing into a conversation and found himself liking him after only a few minutes. It was only during the final minutes of the interview did they talk about the details of the job when it was determined that he was a perfect match.

Another was how a guy walked into the company who was NOT hiring and the man talked himself into a job sheer personality and accepting what would be a relatively low wage. he wound up proving himself within a few months.

now to the employers of the system, how prevalent is this? I know cronyism is fairly common, (I'm against it, so I generally refuse friend's offers of jobs) but how often is it that the sheer weight of a personality weighs heavily in favor of the perspective employee?

[jb4647]

Although there is always anecdotal evidence of someone who becomes a success without a degree, as a whole, those with degrees earn far more than those that don't. Many studies like the one linked below prove this. This is not to say that this is fair or that those without degrees are not as smart, it's just that's the way it's worked out. I've known many talented people over my career without degrees that found themselves at a disadvantage. I've seen them get passed over and over for promotions because they didn't have that "piece of paper." I've also met more than my share of individuals with advanced degrees that couldn't fight their way out of a paper bag. They usually go on to executive leadership

http://www.azcentral.com/families/educatio...efits19-ON.html

I remember in college there were a few opportunites for me to quit like some of my friends did. I kept at it and it led me to the success I now have today. My friends have not been so lucky.

It's a cliche, but my advice has always been to stay in school.

[Subdude]

I would say that being able to land a good job simply by virtue of snappy patter is increasingly a thing of the past. Many employers now insist on competency-based interviews that are structured to focus on real accomplishments. On top of that, where I work we also give both skill assessments and personality tests, so it is extremely unlikely someone will get in simply because of their sparkling personality. Not that it hurts, of course, but it's not enough.

[TheNiche]

It depends on the nature of the job. There are some jobs, especially sales and requisitions, where personality is really the key to success and your skill set became adequate by about the 4th grade. If you want to be an actuary, that's a different story. I've always been a big fan of professional certifications (CPA, CFA, etc.) over new degrees. Its all knowledge-based and is much more targeted than a college program typically is.

In any case, education is something that gets your foot in the door, but your personality and projected levels of energy and confidence are what closes the deal.

Edited February 6, 2008 by TheNiche

[jb4647]

I've always been a big fan of professional certifications (CPA, CFA, etc.) over new degrees. Its all knowledge-based and is much more targeted than a college program typically is.

My experience has been that those with just certs are looked down upon. No matter what your degree is, going through four years or more of college involves a great deal of learning how write and think in a logical & critical way. This is something that employers are frequently looking for and a degree is a verifiable way to tell them you went through this "rigorous process." Many certs are just proof that you passed a test. Employers are afraid of getting burned on people like these.

I've had a discussion with many recruiters and one of the key thing they look for is those with a college degree. It helps them whittle down the hundreds of resumes they receive.

It's also used as a basis for salary negotiations.

[memebag]

Although there is always anecdotal evidence of someone who becomes a success without a degree, as a whole, those with degrees earn far more than those that don't. Many studies like the one linked below prove this. This is not to say that this is fair or that those without degrees are not as smart, it's just that's the way it's worked out. I've known many talented people over my career without degrees that found themselves at a disadvantage. I've seen them get passed over and over for promotions because they didn't have that "piece of paper." I've also met more than my share of individuals with advanced degrees that couldn't fight their way out of a paper bag. They usually go on to executive leadership

I've had the opposite experience. I think it depends on the industry and type of work. I have no degree, but that's never been a problem in the software industry. My salary is above average and, most important, I get to do the kind of work I enjoy. I've seen people hired because they had graduate degrees in computer science get canned in six weeks because they couldn't program.

[crunchtastic]

Agree that it depends on the industry, and also size and culture of the company. In my business, the few people without degrees answer phones and and work in the mail room. Many are super-technical, like actuaries. Some of them even answer phones until they get a break.

I find most MBAs are useless tools who worm their way into mid-level project management where they proceed to do a crappy job of project management, because they think they're too special to update their own very fancy spreadsheets. In nearly 20 years of giganta-corp investments and insurance, I have found a great number of people at the mid- to senior range of management who are not specialized and have weird liberal arts degrees to boot. I had a former sr veep, officer, with a hotel/restaurant management degree. Which was only a little more laughable than my history degree, but we both made it work. In these situations, your skill can be easily sussed; they don't bring you in for a look if you don't have the relevant experience. Everything is verifiable, these days.

My experience, personal and observed, is that after a certain age and experience level are met (assuming technical/advanced degrees are not requisite) degree is not important. At that point, hire-ability and promotability depend almost entirely on your ability to communicate-- not just well but persuasively, 99% percentile better --in writing, in casual conversation, in public speaking.

Which is to say, it's all bull.

But it pays well.

[TheNiche]

My experience has been that those with just certs are looked down upon. No matter what your degree is, going through four years or more of college involves a great deal of learning how write and think in a logical & critical way. This is something that employers are frequently looking for and a degree is a verifiable way to tell them you went through this "rigorous process." Many certs are just proof that you passed a test. Employers are afraid of getting burned on people like these.

I've had a discussion with many recruiters and one of the key thing they look for is those with a college degree. It helps them whittle down the hundreds of resumes they receive.

It's also used as a basis for salary negotiations.

I probably should've been more clear. A degree of any kind (Music, Philosophy, Religion, etc.), coupled with professional certifications of the sort that I mentioned, which aren't even granted to anyone without at least some sort of degree, is plenty enough to land a nice job. A new or specialized degree is probably overkill if you already have one.

Computer programming, btw, can be problematic without a degree (especially in business) because there are often problems with upward mobility later in a career.

[MidtownCoog]

I would say that being able to land a good job simply by virtue of snappy patter is increasingly a thing of the past. Many employers now insist on competency-based interviews that are structured to focus on real accomplishments. On top of that, where I work we also give both skill assessments and personality tests, so it is extremely unlikely someone will get in simply because of their sparkling personality. Not that it hurts, of course, but it's not enough.

The skills assessments sound so Special Ed and would not work in my business. I did have a quasi one back at Exxon in 2004. Passed it with flying colors and then passed when they extended an offer.

I probably should've been more clear. A degree of any kind (Music, Philosophy, Religion, etc.), coupled with professional certifications of the sort that I mentioned, which aren't even granted to anyone without at least some sort of degree, is plenty enough to land a nice job. A new or specialized degree is probably overkill if you already have one.

Computer programming, btw, can be problematic without a degree (especially in business) because there are often problems with upward mobility later in a career.

Agree. In my business it's the "alphabet soup" you put after your name on your business card.

[memebag]

Computer programming, btw, can be problematic without a degree (especially in business) because there are often problems with upward mobility later in a career.

I've been programming for 21 years, in companies that ranged in size from 4 to 90,000 employees, most of them writing financial software, and I've never seen a degree considered in a promotion decision. The only time degrees were on the radar was during initial hiring, and it was never critical. After hiring folks, I don't think any of us even remember who has what degree or certification.

Where have you seen this, and what sort of upward mobility are you talking about?

[MidtownCoog]

My company (Fortune 500 International) requires a degree for all members of management.

[TheNiche]

Where have you seen this, and what sort of upward mobility are you talking about?

Also Fortune 500.

[crunchtastic]

Code jocks are different from management, right?

[TheNiche]

Code jocks are different from management, right?

Sure, until they start getting to the point that they manage other code jocks or gain P&L responsibilities.