Diy, To Permit Or Not To Permit?

[WorkerBee]

We've owned our 1920 bungalow for almost seven years and haven't had time or money to do a much needed restoration. We now have some time and a little bit of cash to make some improvements. My wife and I are DIY types and did two successful, to-the-studs bungalow restorations in Austin. When we bought ours in Houston we knew was going to need a lot of work but were pretty sure that we were up to the challenge. The problem is that we waited a little bit too long and prices in our area have gone up significantly. Now we are afraid that doing any major work will trigger a tax reassessments. From talking to neighbors we've gathered that pulling permits is the main trigger for tax reassessments. We would like to keep everything on level but the potential tax hike is scary. That and the fact that one of the majo expenses is going to be electrical in nature and as we understand it in Houston homeowners cannot do their own electrical work. What should we do? Most of the work is going to be inside and in the crawlspace, away from prying eyes. Should we go for it?

[TheNiche]

Most of the work is going to be inside and in the crawlspace, away from prying eyes. Should we go for it?

Buyers almost never ask if rennovations were done to code or with a permit, and electrical work is often not very visible to home inspectors. If you do it right, you shouldn't have any problems.

[musicman]

Now we are afraid that doing any major work will trigger a tax reassessments. From talking to neighbors we've gathered that pulling permits is the main trigger for tax reassessments. We would like to keep everything on level but the potential tax hike is scary. That and the fact that one of the majo expenses is going to be electrical in nature and as we understand it in Houston homeowners cannot do their own electrical work. What should we do? Most of the work is going to be inside and in the crawlspace, away from prying eyes. Should we go for it?

obtaining a permit does trigger the appraisal district. if you know how to wire, it would be fine. I did mine. if you don't know how, hire an electrician. they don't want you to get a permit. they should give you a break if you don't require them to get a permit.

if the work you're doing is visible, a nosey neighbor or a pass by an inspector, might force you to get one.

[jgs1419]

If you have a 1920s bungalow and live in an area that is seeing a good deal of renovation, the odds are against you. The appraisal district seems to be roaming many neighborhoods walking up on renovations randomly - permit or not. I have a neighbor that is was doing a small renovation on the back of his house (siding, a new window, moved some wiring around for his TV/cable hookup) and the appraisal walked up on him in the middle of a Saturday session, probably saw some of the materials laying in the driveway. My friend didn't have a permit, for the work he was doing it was not required since it was mostly remove/replace/paint type activity.

If the appraisal district or COH catch you without a permit, it isn't the end of the world but the fine isn't small. Might be worth a thought.

[flipper]

Ok, I'll be the contrarian here.

There is a checkbox on the mandatory seller's disclosure form that asks if any unpermitted work has been done to the property. So you have three choices.

1. Don't ever sell the house and you don't have to worry about it.

2. Check that you did unpermitted work, and hope that potential buyers don't care.

3. Don't check that you did unpermitted work, and hope you don't get sued if someone finds out.

Just don't forget to way the down side of not getting permits in your decision.

flipper

[musicman]

Ok, I'll be the contrarian here.

There is a checkbox on the mandatory seller's disclosure form that asks if any unpermitted work has been done to the property. So you have three choices.

unforunately, people not stating the truth on these forms is quite common.

[sidegate]

is there a statute of limitations on non-pulling of permits?

[flipper]

is there a statute of limitations on non-pulling of permits?

The Texas Association of Realtors Seller's Disclosure form being used now says:

"Are you (seller) aware of any of the following: Room additions, structural modifications, or other alterations or repairs made without neccessary permits or not in compliance with building codes in effect at the time"

No mention of time.

flipper

[memebag]

I'm going to be an even bigger contrarian. I'm going to be a buzz kill.

Building codes exist for very good reasons. Follow them. It's your duty to your community.

I feel dirty.

[jm1fd]

The Texas Association of Realtors Seller's Disclosure form being used now says:

"Are you (seller) aware of any of the following: Room additions, structural modifications, or other alterations or repairs made without neccessary permits or not in compliance with building codes in effect at the time"

No mention of time.

flipper

So it would appear to me that you could answer NO to this question if you didn't pull permits but the modifications/additions/repairs/alterations, as far as you know, are up to code.

[MovingSoon]

So it would appear to me that you could answer NO to this question if you didn't pull permits but the modifications/additions/repairs/alterations, as far as you know, are up to code.

That's not how "OR" works. But you would be right if there was "AND" in its place.

[musicman]

That's not how "OR" works. But you would be right if there was "AND" in its place.

I don't know whether you are joking or not. or should it be an and?

[memebag]

I don't know whether you are joking or not. or should it be an and?

There's no joke. If the seller is aware of any of these things:

• "Room additions, structural modifications, or other alterations"
  
• "repairs made without neccessary permits"
  
• "[repairs made] not in compliance with building codes in effect at the time"
  

then the seller has to say so (if the seller doesn't want to lie.) The 2nd clause makes the whole thing true if you didn't obtain a permit. That's how "or" works.

[flipper]

There's no joke. If the seller is aware of any of these things:

• "Room additions, structural modifications, or other alterations"
  
• "repairs made without neccessary permits"
  
• "[repairs made] not in compliance with building codes in effect at the time"
  

then the seller has to say so (if the seller doesn't want to lie.) The 2nd clause makes the whole thing true if you didn't obtain a permit. That's how "or" works.

This is the correct answer

flipper

[musicman]

There's no joke. If the seller is aware of any of these things:

• "Room additions, structural modifications, or other alterations"
  
• "repairs made without neccessary permits"
  
• "[repairs made] not in compliance with building codes in effect at the time"
  

then the seller has to say so (if the seller doesn't want to lie.) The 2nd clause makes the whole thing true if you didn't obtain a permit. That's how "or" works.

where it fails is the phrase "is the seller aware". when someone breaks the wax seal on the toilet, the city requires the owner to get a permit. Do most homeowners do that? no. I would be willing to say that most homeowners aren't aware of the requirements or figure it makes no difference. A no on the form guarantees you nothing.

ironically the getting a permit doesn't guarantee you anything either. the permit area is so short staffed that they do home inspections so quickly (if at all) that they cant possibly inspect everything per their own rules.

hiring someone that you can trust is the best thing a homeowner can do.

[rapturematt]

If the appraisal district or COH catch you without a permit, it isn't the end of the world but the fine isn't small. Might be worth a thought.

If you get caught, the fine is normally double the permit price.

[sidegate]

I don't think anyone is advocating dodging code. but if excessive property valuations are discouraging homeowners from updating older properties, and in turn bringing up the wider neighborhood, stimulating the local economy etc., then clearly something is wrong with the system.

[WorkerBee]

I don't think anyone is advocating dodging code. but if excessive property valuations are discouraging homeowners from updating older properties, and in turn bringing up the wider neighborhood, stimulating the local economy etc., then clearly something is wrong with the system.

This is what's troubling us the most. We want to do everything by the book. In Austin we pulled all the permits, studied the code books, and made sure we did everything to code. In the end we saved tons of money and were happy with the results. We would like to do this here, but the city is more interested in encouraging house flippers and townhouse development than potential longterm owners. It makes sense from a tax perspective. We've been at our current place since 2002 and most of the surrounding bungalows have either flipped multiple times at ever-increasing prices or been torn down and replaced with three-to-a-lot townhouses. Currently we are leaning towards pulling all the permits. We may change our mind when the rewire estimates start coming in.

[AJXterra]

This is what's troubling us the most. We want to do everything by the book. In Austin we pulled all the permits, studied the code books, and made sure we did everything to code. In the end we saved tons of money and were happy with the results. We would like to do this here, but the city is more interested in encouraging house flippers and townhouse development than potential longterm owners. It makes sense from a tax perspective. We've been at our current place since 2002 and most of the surrounding bungalows have either flipped multiple times at ever-increasing prices or been torn down and replaced with three-to-a-lot townhouses. Currently we are leaning towards pulling all the permits. We may change our mind when the rewire estimates start coming in.

I'd do it by the book on anything you 'outsource'. We did our electrical and wastewater by the book because we wanted it permitted and done by people who would do it to those standards. The permitting can also be there for your help b/c if it's not done right the city won't pass it. My horror story was with our wastewater replacement that was done and only had city approval needed before the ditch got filled back in. Luckily for us the city showed up and the 'problem' (which come to find out was a before unknown CITY line under the property) wasn't fixed and they refused to pass it until it was. This basically forced the plumbers to find the problem and remedy it. I would have been out 5k and still had my problem if we hadn't had the thing permitted...

So sometimes the right way is the cheap way.

[musicman]

The permitting can also be there for your help b/c if it's not done right the city won't pass it.

if you're lucky. some friends in midtown bought a townhome discovered from another private inspector that the roof joists were undersized even though it had "passed" the city's inspection. they had to spend 5k to correct the issue and sued the builder who avoided court by paying the costs. the permit doesn't guarantee a thing.

[flipper]

the permit doesn't guarantee a thing.

It guarantees you don't have to lie on the Seller's Disclosure.

flipper

[musicman]

It guarantees you don't have to lie on the Seller's Disclosure.

flipper

which doesn't guarantee it is done right which is more important in my book.

[cottonmather0]

The appraisal district seems to be roaming many neighborhoods walking up on renovations randomly - permit or not. I have a neighbor that is was doing a small renovation on the back of his house (siding, a new window, moved some wiring around for his TV/cable hookup) and the appraisal walked up on him in the middle of a Saturday session...

I will second this because it happened to me - even put a post about it on HAIF. About this time last year when our contractor was finishing up our major (permitted) remodel, I was doing some gardening in the backyard one afternoon and looked up and saw some random lady just walking around the back of my house. She introduced herself as being from HCAD and had come to "check on the progress of your work" and was very pleasant. I however, was not pleasant, and ran her off and told her never to come onto my property again. My wife was mad that I had guaranteed us a huge appraisal bump but in the end it wasn't even as big as increase as we were expecting in the first place.

The system is indeed broken, it's all about the money.