Rapper Pimp C Of UGK Dies

[Trae]

^^Even the last song?

[jmancuso]

^ if CNN broadcast their news like that, their ratings would probably improve. lol. btw, i thought that song was alright...delved into social issues, current events...

Music can't make someone act out the stories they hear in music. It just isn't that powerful. I don't doubt you've seen messed up kids listening to music that reflects their messed up lives, but the music didn't mess them up.

no, music does not make people act out but it can reinforce a lifestyle or attitude. angry white rebellious teens in the 80's were drawn to heavy metal much as inner city black kids were drawn to hip-hip in the 90's on through today.

[Jeebus]

Music can't make someone act out the stories they hear in music. It just isn't that powerful.

I refuse to believe that you are this naive. Music, movies, television, video games, and even books & magazines are powerful sources of influence on young pliable minds.

I don't doubt you've seen messed up kids listening to music that reflects their messed up lives, but the music didn't mess them up.

You are right on a broad level. Usually it's not the music that messes kids up - but rather it's the music that fuels their that messed-up life style to continue. It often serves as a gateway to worse behavior - usually beyond a point of no-return (e.g. quitting school, going to prison, death via violent crime or drug overdose)

[Jeebus]

what i surmise from the second song is that the only way to get ahead in life is to become a rapper.

But only after he quit school and his job. When is a strong Black leader going to get through to black teenage boys that there's far more realistic ways to be successful than rapping & playing pro-sports. Maybe a rapper could rap about it - no wait, they're all too busy making money off those same kids they're lying to.

I don't see the youth of any other race as disillusioned as that of the African American. Again, where is it coming from? Rap music.

You all here are really generalizing rap as one thing. There should be different sub-genres in Rap/Hip-Hop.

I'm speaking specifically of "Gangster-Rap". To me, "Gangster Rap" can be defined as any song with spoken lyrics that promote the negative aspects of the urban hip-hop culture - including songs that degrading women, promote hardcore drug use/abuse/sales, and the committing of violent crimes - most often involving gun play.

[memebag]

You are right on a broad level. Usually it's not the music that messes kids up - but rather it's the music that fuels their that messed-up life style to continue. It often serves as a gateway to worse behavior - usually beyond a point of no-return (e.g. quitting school, going to prison, death via violent crime or drug overdose)

So the listeners are less responsible for their behavior than the creators of the music? Do I understand your position?

I don't see the youth of any other race as disillusioned as that of the African American. Again, where is it coming from? Rap music.

You seriously can't think of any other reasons for that?

Why aren't white kids (71% of the rap audience, according to Spin Magazine) having the same reaction if its all about the music?

[Gary]

Music can't make someone act out the stories they hear in music. It just isn't that powerful. I don't doubt you've seen messed up kids listening to music that reflects their messed up lives, but the music didn't mess them up.

First of all music is a VERY powerful force, and to trivialize it as you have shows you haven't a clue. Secondly, I'm not stating that rap/hip hop in and of itself causes a otherwise normal individual to play shoot em up. I'm saying that the rap culture has permeated the pop culture of African Americans to the degree that it HAS changed the way many view life. To deny that is ludicrous at best.

As i mentioned earlier... I grew up in the 70's when the pop culture of the African American was about bettering ones self and proving that the black man was just as good and just as capable as anyone else. It was about proving their equality by actions, not stupid words of thuggery. I believe Martin Luther King is turning in his grave at the destroying of much of what he accomplished.

[crunchtastic]

Why aren't white kids (71% of the rap audience, according to Spin Magazine) having the same reaction if its all about the music?

I'm a little worried about the other 29%. Are they all listening to Justin Timberlake?

[Trae]

^^Like Eminem's raps about killing his mom and ____.

[Gary]

Why aren't white kids (71% of the rap audience, according to Spin Magazine) having the same reaction if its all about the music?

Again you are confusing culture with music. Rap music in the black community IS far more of a lifestyle, while in the white community it's entertainment. I'm not stating that whites are superior because they are not. However it's not a lifestyle for them thus reactions are different. Take those that listen to death metal in the white community for instance. It's far more of a lifestyle for a white kid than is rap. They become engrossed in it, and in many cases in envelopes them to the degree that their daily actions and thoughts start to take on the form of what their listening to. Thus bad things start happening. It's the nature of the beast my friend.Crap in, crap out.

^^Like Eminem's raps about killing his mom and ____.

White or black this stuff is bad, bad, bad for a community. Sugar Hill Gang?? Yes.... Eminem?? Emphatically no!!!!!!!!I hope some of you guys can do a little history check on "rock/soul/rap". You will be blown away at the content and cultural differences in music today

I refuse to believe that you are this naive. Music, movies, television, video games, and even books & magazines are powerful sources of influence on young pliable minds.

I wouldn't refuse anymore Jeebus. He's blind.

[Trae]

I know all about that. Rap back in the 80's was good. Tupac was money, too. What is played on the radio is bullshit to me. I hate it. That is why I have my iPod rolling all the time when I drive. I here quality on it and not "YOOOOOOOUUUUUUUUUU!!!!!!!!!!!!" every ten minutes. And I agree with the death metal thing. They got some scary looking kids in Katy wearing with dudes wearing tight pants and tight shirts with painted shoes and pink in their hair.

[Jeebus]

Why aren't white kids (71% of the rap audience, according to Spin Magazine) having the same reaction if its all about the music?

If white kids do indeed make up 71% of the rap audience, it's only because they account of about 60 to 70 percent of the total teenage demographic in the nation, where as black teenagers might only account for 10 to 15 percent.

You also need to look at the difference between the average white & black teenager. More black teenage boys (per capita) typically are from broken homes, don't know their father or have limited interaction with him, come from a family with less total income, live in lower-income inner-city style* neighborhoods, and are more likely the first generation of their race to not start below the poverty line.

*"Inner-city" for Houston is a unique beast, as kids who live in apartments on the outer limits of the city are subject to the same life-style as those inside the 610 loop.

Where as white teenagers are typically to more likely have 2 parent families or at least decent interaction with their fathers in divorced settings, come from families with more income, live in middle-class suburbs, and not be the first generation of their family to start below the poverty line.

Now, I bolded the word typical because I know some rich black kid from Mo City will want to chime in about how he listens to rap but doesn't go around killing his neighbors. I know, we all know. We're dealing with the law of averages, not exacts.

So the listeners are less responsible for their behavior than the creators of the music? Do I understand your position?

With the information above, I can answer this question. No, I do not believe that the rappers are more responsible for the actions of listeners than the listeners are themselves. I do feel that rappers should be held more responsible by their peers (black community leaders) for the content of their lyrics though.

Why? Because black teenage boys typically look up to these rappers as role-models. They listen to the lyrics of their songs, and feel like they can relate to the rapper's story. Even if they live in the Woodlands and go to the preppiest academy around, they are still more likely to form an emotional bond with a rapper because of perceived similarities than a white teenager. In all reality however, they share nothing more than skin color. Most rappers aren't even from low-income and/or broken homes like many of their listeners. They sell a message of deceit to those kids, and those kids believe their lies and feel that these rappers are the only ones who understand them. They strive to live like said rapper, and find themselves doing whatever it takes (many times emulating what the liar has rapped about) just to achieve the false sense of success the rapper emotes in his songs.

These rappers are abusing their position as role models. They know better than anyone else what it's like to be a black teenager in the United States. Yet, instead of finding ways to rap about the positive, they feed off the emotional immaturity of these kids by rapping about the bad, and the rewards of quick success. No where are the values of education, respect, discipline, or social responsibility even mentioned.

If I were Quannell X, my focus wouldn't be on racism, but rather to trying to reach these kids that rappers are selling lies.

[Jeebus]

^^Like Eminem's raps about killing his mom and ____.

Eminem is a cultural fad. White rappers have never been, nor ever will be taken seriously. The fad that started with Vanilla Ice, has finally peaked with Slim Shady. They are token in the rap world at best.

Black rappers however are immortalized. 2pac, Dr. Dre, Snoop, Ludacris, Master P, Jay-Z, Notorious BIG, 50 Cent, Ice Cube, etc etc.. The list goes on and on. Nothing trivial about these men as they have been, and continue to be worshiped by a nation of black teenage boys who place them on higher pedal-stools rather than other great black men who haven't relied on rapping & pro-sports for success.

[Trae]

Eminem is a cultural fad. White rappers have never been, nor ever will be taken seriously. The fad that started with Vanilla Ice, has finally peaked with Slim Shady. They are token in the rap world at best.

Okay.

Black rappers however are immortalized. 2pac, Dr. Dre, Snoop, Ludacris, Master P, Jay-Z, Notorious BIG, 50 Cent, Ice Cube, etc etc.. The list goes on and on.

The ones that I didn't bold are crap.

Nothing trivial about these men as they have been, and continue to be worshiped by a nation of black teenage boys who place them on higher pedal-stools rather than other great black men who haven't relied on rapping & pro-sports for success.

This is one of the stupidest things I have ever heard. So, you think all of the white high school QB's across America don't put people like Tom Brady or Peyton Manning on the same pedal-stools? You think they don't place groups like Godsmack (can't believe I remember the name), Limp Bizkit, or a Ozzy Osbourne on the same pedal-stool?

[Gary]

. I here quality on it and not "YOOOOOOOUUUUUUUUUU!!!!!!!!!!!!"

What do you mean Trae?

This is one of the stupidest things I have ever heard. So, you think all of the white high school QB's across America don't put people like Tom Brady or Peyton Manning on the same pedal-stools? You think they don't place groups like Godsmack (can't believe I remember the name), Limp Bizkit, or a Ozzy Osbourne on the same pedal-stool?

I think what he's saying is that many men in the black community see there way to the big time (Making money) via sports or music. It's not a slam, rather it's a product of environment.

[Trae]

What do you mean Trae?

You haven't heard that crappy song before?

I think what he's saying is that many men in the black community see there way to the big time (Making money) via sports or music. It's not a slam, rather it's a product of environment.

True, because many black men from those communities make it big, so everyone thinks if they try hard enough they can do it.

^ if CNN broadcast their news like that, their ratings would probably improve. lol. btw, i thought that song was alright...delved into social issues, current events...

You catch that one scroll heading "Don Imus Opens Up New Soul Food Restaurant In Harlem: NAPPY'S".

[memebag]

First of all music is a VERY powerful force, and to trivialize it as you have shows you haven't a clue. Secondly, I'm not stating that rap/hip hop in and of itself causes a otherwise normal individual to play shoot em up. I'm saying that the rap culture has permeated the pop culture of African Americans to the degree that it HAS changed the way many view life. To deny that is ludicrous at best.

Can you discuss this subject without insulting me?

[memebag]

I don't see the youth of any other race as disillusioned as that of the African American. Again, where is it coming from? Rap music.

You also need to look at the difference between the average white & black teenager. More black teenage boys (per capita) typically are from broken homes, don't know their father or have limited interaction with him, come from a family with less total income, live in lower-income inner-city style* neighborhoods, and are more likely the first generation of their race to not start below the poverty line.

Which do you think will have a bigger influence on a child's development?

a) growing up poor, without a father, in a high crime area

the music they listen to

[bachanon]

QUOTE(Gary @ Friday, December 7th, 2007 @ 10:23pm) *

First of all music is a VERY powerful force, and to trivialize it as you have shows you haven't a clue. Secondly, I'm not stating that rap/hip hop in and of itself causes a otherwise normal individual to play shoot em up. I'm saying that the rap culture has permeated the pop culture of African Americans to the degree that it HAS changed the way many view life. To deny that is ludicrous at best.

Can you discuss this subject without insulting me?

how is that insulting you personally memebag?

[memebag]

how is that insulting you personally memebag?

By saying I "haven't a clue" and calling me "ludicrous". That isn't rational discourse; its name-calling, and I don't want to participate in it.

[bachanon]

disagreeing with you and thinking you don't get it, is not insulting you. it is simply a disagreement. you see things differently. it isn't an insult when someone recognizes and defines a difference in opinion. he didn't call you names. you're overly sensitive (not an insult btw).

[bachanon]

come to think of it, if you could go back in the annuls of haif history and peruse some of the more intense discussions between some of our more cerebral members, you would see that things can get pretty ugly among friends.......at least when discussing music and culture and politics, etc. disagreement sharpens us all if we remain civil and not easily offended.

[memebag]

disagreeing with you and thinking you don't get it, is not insulting you. it is simply a disagreement. you see things differently. it isn't an insult when someone recognizes and defines a difference in opinion. he didn't call you names. you're overly sensitive (not an insult btw).

I disagree.

If I don't get it, then help me get it. Showing me why I am wrong might persuade me. Telling me I don't have a clue or calling me or my position ludicrous will not.

Notice how I haven't said anything negative about you, and I haven't cast aspersions on your opinion. I tried to demonstrate the difference between name-calling and rational discourse, and show the benefit of the latter.

[bachanon]

sorry, but if someone tells me i'm small minded or that my opinion is ludicrous, it doesn't hurt my feelings or tick me off. it does; however, let me know we see things differently.

it is small minded of you to think that gary was trying to be mean to you and it's ludicrous to spend this much time discussing what is essentially civil (YES civil) banter.

i think it's small minded to want gay marriage. does that mean i think less of or want to insult people who desire it? NO! i think there are other options. do i think it's ludicrous for so much discussion to be had over a dead rapper who had little to offer society? yes i do. however, i don't belittle those who admire the guy. i love trent reznor for god's sake. what does he stand for? i certainly wouldn't spend hours and get my feelings hurt because others didn't "get" him like i (think i) do. i have friends and family who say "you're an idiot if you think that.". do we bring out the boxing gloves and have it out? no, we say "you're a dork"......"you're a dip####!" and move on with a hug or a wink.

evidently, you know the hearts of people to suppose that anyone who disagrees with you must be MEAN or intend hurt. you must be the all-seeing oracle and seer of men's hearts.

no one hates you, memebag, or intends to belittle you. take a chill pill and let it roll off you like rain on a ducks backside.

[memebag]

sorry, but if someone tells me i'm small minded or that my opinion is ludicrous, it doesn't hurt my feelings or tick me off. it does; however, let me know we see things differently.

Gary's insults neither hurt my feelings nor ticked me off. I just don't spend time talking to people who argue that way, so I asked him if he could discuss this topic without insults. If he says no, I won't continue the discussion.

it is small minded of you to think that gary was trying to be mean to you and it's ludicrous to spend this much time discussing what is essentially civil (YES civil) banter.

I never said Gary was being mean to me, and I wouldn't have spent any time on this meta-discussion if you hadn't asked me that question.

evidently, you know the hearts of people to suppose that anyone who disagrees with you must be MEAN or intend hurt. you must be the all-seeing oracle and seer of men's hearts.

What makes you think I feel that way? Do you see it in my heart?

no one hates you, memebag, or intends to belittle you. take a chill pill and let it roll off you like rain on a ducks backside.

Actually, a lot of people hate me. My archenemies plot my comeuppance as we speak! But I never let it bother me. You seem to think I'm agitated. I assure you I am perfectly calm.

[houstonmacbro]

I'm beginning to believe (as many of you) that this thread has run its course. Can't we let it die?

[jmancuso]

Why aren't white kids (71% of the rap audience, according to Spin Magazine) having the same reaction if its all about the music?

becuase despite rap being the most popular among white kids, they are not the targeted audience. middle-class suburban white kids can't identify with social problems facing the black community which is what most rap tends to deal with at some for or another.

in defense of rappers, sure, we can blame them for promoting/ glorifying violence but the buck doesn't stop with them...as record companies would not continuously sign them if they weren't goldmines.

[bachanon]

Actually, a lot of people hate me. My archenemies plot my comeuppance as we speak! But I never let it bother me. You seem to think I'm agitated. I assure you I am perfectly calm.

LOL. This I like.

i did think you were agitated. my bad.

because despite rap being the most popular among white kids, they are not the targeted audience. middle-class suburban white kids can't identify with social problems facing the black community which is what most rap tends to deal with at some for or another.

the "message" may not be targeted to white kids, but it is marketed to white kids. these guys know who's buying. i saw a special some time ago that had one of the big producers of rap/r&b (can't think of his name. bald guy, model girlfriend). he was up front about who is buying; suburban white boys.

as much as i loathe rap and rap culture, it would be hypocritical of me to come down it.

[Jeebus]

This is one of the stupidest things I have ever heard. So, you think all of the white high school QB's across America don't put people like Tom Brady or Peyton Manning on the same pedal-stools? You think they don't place groups like Godsmack (can't believe I remember the name), Limp Bizkit, or a Ozzy Osbourne on the same pedal-stool?

Trae, you're digging way too deep what is visible on the surface. Sure there are thousands of white kids who want to be rock stars and sports stars like Fred Durst or Tom Brady, respectively. The difference for (most) of them is that they are not in denial about how long of a shot it is to become like those they admire. They also see their fathers and uncles working white & blue collar jobs that bring home more than enough money to support their life style and know that this is ultimately their fate.

Many black teenage boys however don't have those father & uncle role models to fall back on. This leaves them to think that if they don't make it as a rapper or pro athlete, then it's back to the hood to sell drugs & commit robbery/burglary - as if that's the only way. Just look at the percentage of black men in prison in the U.S. There's a reason why it's higher per capita than any other race.

Which do you think will have a bigger influence on a child's development?

A. growing up poor, without a father, in a high crime area

B. the music they listen to

I think the first of the two choices is what has the biggest influence on a child's development. That doesn't mean that rap music is guilt free. Rap music tells these kids in these situations that it's okay to be poor. Just sell drugs and rob people until you make it as a rapper as they did. That is the wrong message to a kid already in a bad situation. He needs a to hear a message of hope, and a lesson of responsibility to his family, his community, and to his people.

I'm beginning to believe (as many of you) that this thread has run its course. Can't we let it die?

come to think of it, if you could go back in the annuls of haif history and peruse some of the more intense discussions between some of our more cerebral members, you would see that things can get pretty ugly among friends.......at least when discussing music and culture and politics, etc. disagreement sharpens us all if we remain civil and not easily offended.

The fact that we have two active HAIF Moderators posting in this thread, and there has yet to be any serious name calling, or accusations of racism, I say let the discussion continue.

[Trae]

Trae, you're digging way too deep what is visible on the surface. Sure there are thousands of white kids who want to be rock stars and sports stars like Fred Durst or Tom Brady, respectively. The difference for (most) of them is that they are not in denial about how long of a shot it is to become like those they admire. They also see their fathers and uncles working white & blue collar jobs that bring home more than enough money to support their life style and know that this is ultimately their fate.

It can go both ways. I have seen some of the most redneck white people out in Katy that don't give a rats ass what they do in school. While here in Katy though, I have met some of the smartest Blacks that I ever have you want to go to school to learn.

Many black teenage boys however don't have those father & uncle role models to fall back on. This leaves them to think that if they don't make it as a rapper or pro athlete, then it's back to the hood to sell drugs & commit robbery/burglary - as if that's the only way. Just look at the percentage of black men in prison in the U.S. There's a reason why it's higher per capita than any other race.

I wouldn't say many. Some, but not many. The racist in you is starting to show again. I know plenty who don't think that way. Two years ago, I went to a summer camp at Prairie View, and the majority of the Blacks there came from inner-city Houston high schools. You act like every Black in the inner city thinks that the only way they can make it is by dribbling a ball, or spittin' a verse.

[memebag]

This leaves them to think that if they don't make it as a rapper or pro athlete, then it's back to the hood to sell drugs & commit robbery/burglary - as if that's the only way.

I can't fault their logic. There are alternatives, but they aren't very attractive.

I think the first of the two choices is what has the biggest influence on a child's development. That doesn't mean that rap music is guilt free. Rap music tells these kids in these situations that it's okay to be poor. Just sell drugs and rob people until you make it as a rapper as they did. That is the wrong message to a kid already in a bad situation. He needs a to hear a message of hope, and a lesson of responsibility to his family, his community, and to his people.

There are plenty of hopeful, uplifting messages available to listeners. They just don't sell as well as the alternative. Are you saying the free market is failing us here? Should we require young black men to buy 2 gospel songs for each rap song, or something along those lines? Should we tell people what music they can buy if they are at high risk of becoming criminals?