The Woodlands 11-07

[bachanon]

Bach, City Centre isn't pluging itself as a Hometown/Downtown. The Woodlands decided it needed a Downtown after 30 years, so it created one. Houston already has a Downtown,Uptown,Midtown, Med Center, Rice Village etc. Yes, this project will spring to life, in a city full massive projects, in under two years with landscaping...but its merely a project, not a created city and its just a blip on the radar of Houston. Currently it seems not to be trying to present itself as anything but an urban lifestyle center within an urban area. But as implied above, I am cautious about the project, as ones in the burbs have that produced, trying to be Mayberry feeling to them. Hopefully, they got a good read on the area and surrounding neighborhoods and aren't going to go that wayof a 1950's town movie set. Time will tell.

BTW, it wasn't my intention to make my first post City Centre v. Market Street. They can't be compared anyway. One is a town area developed by one development company, the other just an urban project in a huge city. I was just merely stating that to me it doesn't matter what the place looks like, if it doesn't have a really good parking, good shops and a general energy to it during the day, I won't use it. Perfect or imperfect. And I have no clue how City Centre will flesh out.

actually, market street is merely a project and was not developed by the woodlands, but by trademark. the area that is now town center was land preserved by george mitchell in order that a "woodlands downtown" could be created when the area could support it. market street is just one project in the woodlands town center (by a company other than the woodlands development co). i think city centre and market street are the same type projects but on a different scale. if you were to compare city centre with the woodlands town center; however, city centre would be the less organic development. the woodlands provided the infrastructure and the market for market street, as houston is providing the infrastructure and the market for city centre.

[webdude]

Because dirt and chaos are big parts of the real world. It's only our abstractions and imitations of real things that are kept really clean and orderly. This isn't a real main street, it's an amusement park:

Many cities in the world are neat and orderly and they are real. Zurich (Switzerland), Montreal, Singapore, even our own Portland OR comes to mind.

[bachanon]

good point webdude. i think that some cultures have a certain mindset that involves order and cleanliness.

[moni]

Absolutely! If you see trash on the street, pick it up. If you have weeds and grass growing where they should not be growing, clean it up or notify the city. Homeless people should all be sent to facilities that take care of them like they did in NYC. No one's mom or dad should be begging on the streets people. Putting down clean and orderly towns is a sure sign that you are part of the problem.

[memebag]

Many cities in the world are neat and orderly and they are real. Zurich (Switzerland), Montreal, Singapore, even our own Portland OR comes to mind.

Where did you get that idea?

Here are a couple of pics from Zurich:

And Montreal:

Singapore:

Even Portland!

[webdude]

Where did you get that idea?

I am sure you can find uncleanliness and dirtiness if you try hard enough, but for those cities, those are the exception rather than the norm.

And I think those pics you posted are from offbeat areas rather than their main streets. I thought you implied the main streets or main gathering places are not real if they look clean and orderly. Those are certainly not their main streets as I remember their main streets as much cleaner than that.

And also, I was in Singapore beginning this year, and the skateboarding with graffiti pic you posted is actually a designated area for skateboarding and graffiti, it was allocated and designed that way on purpose to mimic the US skateboarding parks. No other area in Singapore has that kind of graffti. I also checked the link of the pic you posted and you neglected to show the other pics which show the clean areas. These are the pics from the same link you posted

And this pic above of their public transportation system is indeed as clean as show. I took it when I was there, it was extremely clean exactly like the pic, and it wasn't a amusement park ride.

Here are some of the main gathering areas of the cities mentioned, and they are not amusement parks.

Woodlands has something going on, it shows that real life and nice neat can go together, and I give them credit for that.

[Boris]

Excellent response Webdude.

[Guest danax]

There would seem to be a lot of people who are attracted to the inner loop because of features that they perceive to be "urban"; museums, tall buildings, pedestrian-oriented areas, rail lines, etc, etc. and I would guess that a lot of these same people will seldom use these features, so they like having them there just to give atmosphere to where they live and so they become nothing but props.

People are so used to watching fantasy via television and movies, living in the city becomes just another movie set, so why not have a movie set without the undesirable aspects of the real city, like the Market St. ?

[Jax]

There has to be a balance between the dirt and chaos of the real world and some sort of order and cleanliness, but anything which is relatively new will seem more clean than the old. It's not, as membag implies, that if something is clean and orderly and new that it is automatically artificial or 'Disney-like'.

I wonder if people once thought that the streets of NYC was were sort of disney-like imitation of Europe when the city was being built, but somehow because the city is old it now seems authentic.

Montreal has some pretty gritty parts, lots of graffiti, lots of homeless, dirty streets etc. Some of these undesirable elements are probably a greater problem than in Houston, simply because there are more people outside. But I don't think that if they cleaned the undesirable elements up that it would seem less authentic.

[memebag]

I thought you implied the main streets or main gathering places are not real if they look clean and orderly.

I wasn't trying to imply anything. I was answering your question about cleanliness and orderliness "would be consider not 'real world'".

Those are certainly not their main streets as I remember their main streets as much cleaner than that.

Their main streets might be clean sometimes, but other times they have been covered with filth.

And also, I was in Singapore beginning this year, and the skateboarding with graffiti pic you posted is actually a designated area for skateboarding and graffiti, it was allocated and designed that way on purpose to mimic the US skateboarding parks.

Singapore also banned the import, sale and use of chewing gum, and criminalized failure to flush a toilet after its use.

It's not, as membag implies, that if something is clean and orderly and new that it is automatically artificial or 'Disney-like'.

Step back a second. Webdude asked why some people thought that, I gave a possible reason. I'm not the one claiming "clean and orderly" makes something artificial.I have much better reasons for thinking of Market Street as phony.

[houstonmacbro]

Good pix.

[marc]

Out of fear of responses, i will try to be delicate regarding my opinion regarding the "unreal, clean, fake, manufactured, world of white people."

When it comes to Houston and LA (in which i currently reside) and other US cities i suspect we all are aware of White Flight.

I think what some of these suburban developers are trying to achieve is a hearkening back to a time when neighborhoods were clean, lawns were mowed, and there were very few vagrants, etc. This is a reality of Houston's past, albeit maybe distant past. We are talking about an era of the 50s which is now roughly 60 years ago! My family has lived in Houston for generations, and like some of you, i hear the stories of how H-town has changed dramatically- both for the good and bad....according to them.

Having said that- i prefer a more "urban" feel. And i understand that some of us prefer a little more grit in our lives, versus others who enjoy a more pristine existance. What i LOVE about Houston, (and LA) is that one can choose from both. I think of Montrose and similar districts where there is just as much culture as there is grit. And yes, there is also a certain amount of culture in TW and even , i know its hard to believe, Katy. What is the culture? Apart from that which i am not a part of, the pristine cookie cutter artificiality of some of the newer suburbs has become a culture all of its own. And i suspect, until there is a more evening of the distribution of wealth in our country, the newer areas which have a larger tax base and income level will be prodominately, well, ....white. That is just the reality of 2007 America. This will probably NOT be the case in say, 2027 America. Stick around, and we' ll see!

Like the case of townhomes. Many developments in the suburbs of Houston will have a similar feel to them, because i think they are going for a concept which cannot be achieved in more "real" settings. In other words, if people wanted more "realness" they would have stayed put in the areas where it is apparant an attrition rate has developed.

The thing that bothers me, and i feel, does a HUGE disservice to OUR generation is that those with money (and for many years, were, well, mostly white people) did not stay in existing neighborhoods and upgrade. They did not assimilate with the newer residents who, in Houston's case, tended to be Black or Hispanic. That, imo, is a big shame on us.

Consequently, the stereo-types perpetuate racism. Think about it. So, if someone speaks properly, listens to classical music, enjoys more open, clean spaces, likes to shop in expensive looking "plastic" places etc., that automatically makes them "white?" Hmmm. So, conversely, what does that say about non-White people? Not a very good commentary at all about non Caucasians. See what i mean?

Do some of these places look DisneyLandish? Yes. But maybe that's what some people want from their neighborhoods. In a day and age where "reality" is shoved down our throats, maybe a little make believe (besides amusement parks) is what some of us is looking for.

OK, let the tirades begin.

m.

[RedScare]

Do some of these places look DisneyLandish? Yes. But maybe that's what some people want from their neighborhoods. In a day and age where "reality" is shoved down our throats, maybe a little make believe (besides amusement parks) is what some of us is looking for.

In a nutshell, this is really the rub. The gripes that some make about these "1950s town squares" is merely a cover for the disdain that they have for a culture that has grown superficial enough to appreciate and prefer "Disneyland". It is not so much a gripe about Town Center or Market Street, as a gripe that anyone would actually like it. These developments are merely a symptom, or an expression of a larger societal gripe, that society prefers to ignore reality, instead surrounding itself with "Disneyland".

I am not going to denigrate a developer for building what the people want. I am not even going to cast aspersions toward those that wish to live and shop in these "disneylands". If living in these environs helps one survive in the game of life, so be it. I can only speak for myself and my own preferences. Those preferences include the grit and grime that come with living a little closer to the action. I recognize that it is not for everyone, and that my preferences are not the "correct answer", as there are no correct answers. It is merely my preference, as Market Street is clearly the preference of others.

My take, for what it's worth.

[marc]

^^^^ Noted. Personally, i rather like a more urban feel. But as you have pointed out, that may mean different things to different people. I have lived in NoHo Cali. for a few years and the entire area has experienced a rebirth. By urban, i mean outdoor cafes, more small, quaint theatres, a dance studio or two, acting studios, open air markets, a community library and park in the middle of all of it and mass transit out the wazoo. (Red line and Orange line converge in NoHo). Do i miss the homeless people camping in the park? Peeing in the alleyways? The graffiti on the walls? Not so much. NoHo has even hired a team of security people who travel around on bikes in the 5 mile radius to make sure the "degenerates" move along and do not squat anywhere in the area. Because of this transformation which took place really in the past two years, i do see the "grit" rubbed out. So, i do understand where you are coming from. And i must admit, i am still deciding where i stand about the polishing of NoHo. Some things i do miss. Urbanity, to me is supposed to include the more gritty side of life, so if that is whitewashed and polished, then is it really urban? Hmmmm.

m.

[infinite_jim]

In a nutshell, this is really the rub. The gripes that some make about these "1950s town squares" is merely a cover for the disdain that they have for a culture that has grown superficial enough to appreciate and prefer "Disneyland". It is not so much a gripe about Town Center or Market Street, as a gripe that anyone would actually like it. These developments are merely a symptom, or an expression of a larger societal gripe, that society prefers to ignore reality, instead surrounding itself with "Disneyland".

P. Eisenman calls these socio-political architectural concepts as "dislocations" in that they supplant preexisting conditions with microcosms of order, more akin to the nostalgic beaux-arts theories of pomo pursued by Leon Krier.