Harris County Commissioners to vote to raise toll fees

[jt16]

Agreed, I have to say that the trade off of better schools & lower crime is worth the wait in traffic, not to mention worth the toll. Especially when you can take P&R or carpool. The $2.50 is justified by me just by saving my time. I want a Bentley also, but I can not afford it.

For some people it's not the choice between a Bentley and a Ford, it's the choice between being able to afford their job or not. It's a bit elitist to say "I don't care about the commuter, they made their bed now lie in it." I know several families that have two different jobs in two different locations. Naturally you have to choose a central location to set roots. Factor in schools, cost of living and out right quality of life, and this rules out everybody living next to their offices.

[longcat]

This whole fiasco is exactly why toll roads are more valuable in private hands than when run by the govt. Private operators are much more free to set the toll rate correctly in order to maximize traffic flow than public entities that must answer for the rates in the court of public opinion. Next time you hear the argument about 'why sell the road to a private company and let them earn a profit off of the road when the county can just keep the road and make the same money and save by not giving away the profit' remember this. Publicly run toll roads in general have lower toll rates and have a much more difficult time raising them even to keep up with inflation.

And people forget that congestion is just another form of tax that benefits no one. So set the rates too low and everyone can sit in traffic together and all collectively pay that tax.

[TheNiche]

...when the benefit of the hike was to "get the poor people off the toll roards" you can always expect a revolt.

Who are you quoting? Where did you come up with that ridiculous load of ****?

[MidtownCoog]

Take out the word "poor" and that's an exact quote from Raddack.

And that's the exact message that came across, hence, the PR/backpedaling job performed today by the CO. commissioners. They bit the hand that feeds them and they realized it.

My advice to you,

[RedScare]

Publicly run toll roads in general have lower toll rates and have a much more difficult time raising them even to keep up with inflation.

Care to give some examples? Every private toll road proposal I have seen has ridiculously high rates, non-competition clauses, both for retail along the road and nearby freeways, and allows wide latitude to increase tolls further. At least a government run toll road reinvests toll profits into new toll roads. Private toll roads put profits into the shareholders' pockets.

The congestion pricing voted on by Harris County was correct. The commissioners did not educate the public prior to voting, and then got cold feet. This is simply a public relations problem, not a public vs. private problem.

[TheNiche]

For some people it's not the choice between a Bentley and a Ford, it's the choice between being able to afford their job or not. It's a bit elitist to say "I don't care about the commuter, they made their bed now lie in it." I know several families that have two different jobs in two different locations. Naturally you have to choose a central location to set roots. Factor in schools, cost of living and out right quality of life, and this rules out everybody living next to their offices.

The 'job' or 'no job' choice is usually pretty low on the list of sacrifices, and when it comes down to it, a change like this may only cause such households to reevaluate their place of employment rather than whether or not they have a job at all.

But I will give you one thing--Harris County needs to set and maintain strict policies regarding changes of toll rates. If it is a scheduled and incremental change that occurs frequently and in relatively small amounts, people can at least be aware when they move somewhere that toll road rates could go up in the future. As it is, you can hardly blame most toll road users for being at least a bit upset, not because the tolls would've been going up, but because they would've been going up so unexpectedly and by so much all at once.

[TheNiche]

Take out the word "poor" and that's an exact quote from Raddack.

...put in the word "poor", and those quotation marks become a lie.

From the forum guidelines, under the "Terms and Rules" section, I quote, "You may not post blatantly or demonstrably false information. The world is full of enough rumors and innuendo. The intent of this forum is to generate more light than heat."

My advice to you,

[MidtownCoog]

Well this time it looks like logic won and the big bad Harris County boys lost this game of chicken.

Put that into your equations and compute it.

[TheNiche]

Care to give some examples? Every private toll road proposal I have seen has ridiculously high rates...and allows wide latitude to increase tolls further.

That was what longcat was saying, but he viewed it as beneficial.

[longcat]

Care to give some examples? Every private toll road proposal I have seen has ridiculously high rates, non-competition clauses, both for retail along the road and nearby freeways, and allows wide latitude to increase tolls further. At least a government run toll road reinvests toll profits into new toll roads. Private toll roads put profits into the shareholders' pockets.

The congestion pricing voted on by Harris County was correct. The commissioners did not educate the public prior to voting, and then got cold feet. This is simply a public relations problem, not a public vs. private problem.

We'll get too technical here in a hurry, but here's a response:

1) You are correct that privates tend to set higher rates, and I do view it as beneficial when it allows for free flow of traffic.

2) You can take the non-competition clause out of a private toll concession, but then the value to the private owner decreases dramatically. How much would you pay for an asset that's only value is based on traffic projections that can be completely trashed at any point whenever the govt decides to build a competing road. The non-compete clause eliminates risk from the projections which increases NPV dramatically and thus increases what a concessionaire would pay to the govt for the project.

3) Private toll roads may put profits in shareholders pockets, but where do you think the interest goes on the bonds that the govt uses to finance public toll roads??? Why isn't that viewed the same way?

Politicians are always going to be reticent to raise rates to the proper level. Perhaps it was more PR failure in this case, but I think the broader point remains.

[N Judah]

So people didn't know Westpark would be congestion pricing? Or did they just not know what congestion pricing is?

I don't like the idea of scheduled fare increases, unless they are somehow tied to population growth or something like that (which seems very difficult).

I think I agree with musicman -- fares should be increased in a way that targets specific congestion areas at specific times. With EZ Tag this shouldn't be too hard to do...

Edited June 21, 2007 by N Judah

[TheNiche]

Well this time it looks like logic won and the big bad Harris County boys lost this game of chicken.

Put that into your equations and compute it.

You speak of logic?

[MidtownCoog]

I don't like the idea of scheduled fare increases, unless they are somehow tied to population growth or something like that (which seems very difficult).

The court agreed to a schedule that would double all toll rates over the next 20 years. Rates will go up annually: 2 percent or at the rate of the rise in the consumer price index, whichever is greater.

[Pumapayam]

Westpark Tolls won't be doubled.

Officials listen to irate public but warn congestion will continue

By BILL MURPHY

Copyright 2007 Houston Chronicle

Top county officials announced Thursday that they will rescind a decision to double fees during peak hours on the Westpark Tollway but warned drivers that traffic backups likely will continue without "congestion pricing."

"The realistic answer is 'yes,' " Commissioner Steve Radack said. "There will be congestion on the Westpark Tollway."

Edited June 22, 2007 by Pumapayam

[EatSleepMOD]

The obvious but not politically correct solution is for a system to be designed that matches license plate info up with current / active insurance records. This would at least on my side of town eliminate a lot of traffic from all those that don't carry insurance, crash into a vehicle and either drive off or run off. If police could scan plates not just for the regular items but also current insurance we could fix traffic and the need for more roads, etc....

Just think less traffic and cheaper insurance.

Scharpe St Guy

YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You have my vote!

[westguy76]

Occasionally I agree with Niche.

When the toll roads were approved and built, (hopefully) no one was naive enough to think the toll would be the same forever. It was built with the understanding that it was a finite resource and the purpose of the toll was to fairly allocate the resource to those who felt it was important enough to pay for. In the situation where the roadway is beyond capacity even with the toll, the built-in mechanism (and only logical solution) is to increase the toll to reduce congestion.

Anyone who constructed their life in any way around access to the tollway at a current price level and congestion is in fact guilty of NIMBYism. It's well demonstrated that NIMBYism is a selfish and indefensible position. It's the assertion that the maintenance of one's own status quo supersedes the property rights of all others. This is the intellectual dishonesty and hypocrisy of NIMBYism: at one moment to claim you are only defending your property rights, while in fact your claim is based on restricting the property rights of others.

Beyond that, personally I've always felt the suburban lifestyle with a 30 mile commute is unsustainable because of land use, gasoline use, carbon dioxide and other emissions, etc. I think it's wasteful. So I have little sympathy for long-distance commuters to begin with. JH Kunstler provides a rhetorically entertaining view of this position.

the total length of the westpark is less than 19 miles.

[TheNiche]

the total length of the westpark is less than 19 miles.

And if you live at Westpark and the Grand Parkway, but work at the intersection of Westpark and the 610 Loop, that'd be relevant.

[MidtownCoog]

QUOTE(woolie @ Thursday, June 21st, 2007 @ 8:20am)

Occasionally I agree with Niche.

So I have little sympathy for long-distance commuters to begin with. JH Kunstler provides a rhetorically entertaining view of this position.

Other than people rightfully complaining about the fee doubling, I don't see any commuters asking for sympathy regarding their commute.

People do not commute with a gun held to their head.

[westguy76]

And if you live at Westpark and the Grand Parkway, but work at the intersection of Westpark and the 610 Loop, that'd be relevant.

I was pointing that out in reponse to the ignorant anti-suburban-everybody commutes 30 miles to work-ignore the fact that not everyone works in a central business district-mentality that was expressed in the previous post.

Of course people get on and off the tollway at different points.

from cinco ranch I ride in on westheimer to the westchase district about an 11 mile commute. I'm usually at work in 20 minutes

I usually use the westpark on weekends when i make the trip to pearland or somewhere else on the south side.

Edited June 22, 2007 by westguy76

[westguy]

It is 19 miles from GP to Post Oak. It'll eventually reach about 26, since it looks like they are going to go through with the ill-advised expansion to accomodate unbuilt master plan communities. It seems really nervey to bring more traffic to the road and say we need to hike up the tolls.

[Ktex]

I sent an email to the County Commisioners regarding this issue and received the below response earlier today.

Your message to the Harris County Budget office regarding Toll Road Authority rate increases was forwarded to our offices for reply.

As you know, the vote approving a 25-cent system-wide toll increase and Westpark Tollway-only $2.50 time-of-day increase passed on Tuesday. Just yesterday, after many citizens voiced their opinion to our department, County Judge Emmett and the Commissioners, the plan for Westpark will be changed. When Commissioners Court meets on July 10, it will propose to drop the plan to double the tolls during peak hours on the Westpark. It stands to reason, that if you want to reduce traffic congestion on that road plans must be made to accommodate that traffic. At this time there is no viable alternative.

Let me assure you that the entire plan to increase toll rates was the result of a year-long study looking at the transportation and mobility needs of Harris County. Conservative estimates put costs for construction of new roads at over $30 million per mile. Six new toll projects identified for Harris County total $4.5 billion. Furthermore, the costs for maintaining existing toll roads are increasing. The system-wide rate increase was necessary to meet these needs. These are Harris County roads and are not eligible for federal or state funding.

In reviewing the Westpark Tollway congestion Judge Emmett has announced a three point plan that would replace the time-of-day pricing. First, Commissioners Court, in consultation with Toll Road Authority executives will determine a realistic completion date for construction along the I-10 corridor. Second, planners will look at possible improvements on other roads that could also serve as an alternative route to the Westpark Tollway. Finally, the group will study creative partnerships with METRO to enhance commuter service in that corridor. This could be as simple as designating additional Park & Ride routes or providing non-revenue EZ TAGs for buses to use the tollway. Planners will also examine ideas and incentives to encourage people to pool together in higher occupancy vehicles.

Certainly, I hope this answers your question and concerns. Again, we appreciate your ideas and comments. Please feel free to contact this department if you have any other questions.

Regards,

D. Page Rander

Communications Coordinator

Communications Office

Harris County Toll Road Authority

(832) 601-7932

[musicman]

13 undercover is at work again. seems our commissioners are getting to ride the toll roads for free and harris county has given out over 5500 freebie tags to various people and neighboring cities including harris county personnel.

i'll bet "let them take richmond" is going to come back to haunt them! LOL

Edited June 22, 2007 by musicman

[The Voice of University Oaks]

Finally, the group will study creative partnerships with METRO to enhance commuter service in that corridor. This could be as simple as designating additional Park & Ride routes or providing non-revenue EZ TAGs for buses to use the tollway.

I've never understood why this didn't happen immediately after the Westpark Tollway opened. METRO and HCTRA signed a Memorandum of Understanding several years ago in regards to the ability to run buses on the Katy Freeway's new managed lanes. But they never bothered to generate a similar understanding regarding the Westpark Tollway, even though there are four transit facilities (Mission Bend, Westchase, Gessner, Hillcroft) directly adjacent to the tollway. Hence, the 274 Westchase/Gessner runs in surface traffic along Harwin and Westpark Road (read: slow travel times) and there is no 2XX-level service to Mission Bend. Putting buses on the Westpark Tollway will result in shorter travel times and that, in turn, will attract more riders.

The other lesson from this episode is that congestion pricing, for all the favorable literature written about it from economists, engineers, etc., still has a long way to go before it gains public acceptance.

Edited June 23, 2007 by The Voice of University Oaks

[N Judah]

The other lesson from this episode is that congestion pricing, for all the favorable literature written about it from economists, engineers, etc., still has a long way to go before it gains public acceptance.

Until commuters can use tollways for free during non-peak times I don't expect anyone to get too enthusiastic about congestion pricing.