C2H

Also, Firstngoal stated that Denver is 10 years ahead of Houston in residential development; therefore Denver Pavilions didn't need a residential portion, but Houston's does. But Denver Pavilions opened 9 years ago, so that puts Houston in relatively the same place that Denver was when Denver Pavilions opened. (In fact, we'll be in a better place than Denver was, since Houston Pavilions won't open until nearly 11 years after Denver Pavilions did; so if we're only 10 years behind in residential development... well, you can do the math. ;-)

Don't get me wrong, i'm very excited and hopeful of Houston Pavilions. I think it will be slightly different from Denver's version because for one: it will be larger. The only thing that i wish Houston has that Denver's has is the movie theatre.

I don't think Firstngoal was basing his statement over Denver's residential develpment off Denver Pavilions alone. I guess part of what got me in "the dumps" is the statements saying it will be like another Bayou Place. We all know that place isn't the most happenin' in downtown and i don't want HP to suffer the same fate. I wanna see more people!

Not so sure about what you mean by "Denver Pavilions has done great." There have been many casualties on the restaurant side - including Wolfgang Puck's restaurant. Other smaller retailers - esp. on the upper levels - are long, long gone. There are many vacancies. Have you been there?? The only portion of the development that does ok is the area that immediately faces 16th Street on ground level. Overall, retail sales have been so-so there.... many in Denver would say that it is not their first choice for a retail destination... even amongst retail centers downtown.

Denver didn't need to build residential over the Pavilions project. With LoDo - which is down 16th Street from the Pavilions - flourishing, and now with the Platte River surging with new residential construction, downtown Denver is at least a decade ahead of downtown Houston on the residential side... and that is a best case scenario for downtown Houston. And that is my point... if there was one case for a new residential development in downtown Houston, it would be near amenities (retail, light rail, office jobs) as the Pavilions promises. If the developers can't make it work here (and with incentives, no less!), I am skeptical on creating any real residential density downtown. As Kinkaid stated - it is disappointing. We don't need another Bayou Place (which, I may add, is also heavily subsidized!!)...

Sorry to rain on everyone's parade but ever since this the quoted statement was made, i've wondered if HP will really make a difference downtown Houston.

On the other hand, anything like this can only be a positive step for downtown because downtown Houston currently needs some serious help.

Maybe this is why downtown's night life is slowing down.

http://www.click2houston.com/news/10961238/detail.html

Man, that's just terrible!

I've spent time in Denver and like the city. She's right to some degree: Houston dwarfs Denver! Denver's DT is really nice, but the city is really pretty small overall. Once you're a few miles north on 25, for example, you're in the country again.

The cities are just different. There's just as much (if not more) urban living in Houston. I'm somewhat confused with her impression about Uptown. Denver doesn't have anything like it (Tech Center? Come on..._)

I know that Houston has to grow on some people. I have a few friends that hated moving to Houston but really enjoy it now.

I currently live about an hour from Denver, so i'm up there quite often. There is pollution but it has improved since the 90s. The lightrail system has been expanding like crazy. I'm hoping to move to Houston because i just love the ethnic diversity and the "free" way of living. Plus my girlfriend goes to TSU!

Musicman, when was the last time you were in Denver ?

very subjective. some things have improved and worsened like anywhere. hard to guess what her opinion was based on. what time period was she here?

I work with about 60 people down in clr lake. only 3 of us live in the beltway. i can tell you one person who was here 2 yrs and had only been to "houston" once, and that was on his way to moving here. he just stays in clear lake for everything.

some people just want to stay in their little worlds and and be sheltered. anything "urban" is bad. so they stay in the burbs all of their lives.

I think you're right, people are generally just afraid of change from their own world. For the most part, Denver is newer than Houston and is very urban downtown. She could've been talking as someone from the suburbs. She said they had been living down there for a few weeks and were just back in Colorado getting some more of their things. They may have been from the Denver suburbs and just probably ended up in the wrong part of Houston.

I'm just surprised that her being an employee of the Uptown/ Galleria area, that didn't help enhance her image of the city a little bit. I know the traffic is bad in that area but it's great as far as aesthetics.

Hey everyone. I'm sorry to start such a miscellaneous question but i'm curious.

I was speaking with this young couple who just left Denver and is still in the process of moving to Houston within the next 2 weeks for a job transfer. The wife states that she is so depressed about moving to Houston and wishes she could stay in Denver. I asked her why. She replied, "It's so biggg!" I told her, "The last time i checked, Denver was big too!" The lady went on further to say that Houston is congested, raggedy and etc.... She seemed to have a very negative image of the city, even when i told her to visit Uptown/Galleria area. She said that's where she works and STILL didn't seem very impressed.

The last time that i was in Houston, it looked like they have made alot of improvements and several beautification projects were under way. The city really seemed to be shaping up to be a decent looking city. I was somewhat disappointed to find that this person still has that negative impression of Houston. I love Houston so much and want for it to be recognized as a great place to live and visit. So that brings me to my question, Do you all think Houston's image has improved, gotten worse, or stayed the same over the last few years. From the Superbowl, NBA All Star game, Essence 2006, MB All Star Game, Astros World Series and Etc. I'm not taking the opinion of just this one person, i'm talking overall.

Please share your thoughts.

I have to somewhat disagree with that. When I came to Dallas, I was anxious to see West Village, Mockingbird Station, and even downtown Fort Worth. I visited all of them, saw them, liked them, and have been back often. The same with Houston. When my parents moved there and I read about the Houston's Main St. revitalization, I was a "lookie-loo" on my first visit. I found places I liked and now visit the area almost everytime I'm in Houston. The area hasn't chaned very much since I first visited, but that doesn't stop me from visiting. I visit Houston at least twice a month, it would be crazy for me to expect a new shiny development to check out everytime I visit. If people like what you have to offer, they'll be back, for whatever the reason., be it to shop, drink, eat, or just hang out and walk around. With your logic, I would only visit most places once.

You're speaking from a Visitor's aspect. I was saying as a resident, people won't make special trips to Victory every week and won't just be crowded with activity. Especially not the 230 + days that 713-214 gave.

I personally don't think this development is going to turn this area into a crowded city gathering place overnight. And the "230+ days out of the year" figure that 713-214 gave sounded a little too hopeful. Granted, this area will have development, but things will still take time. It will probably be at least 5-10 years before you really notice any impact. There will be few people living here, but not enough to really spur a city buzz that the developers hope. After the looky-loos and browsers see the development, what then? Just like when people first come to Dallas, they see the skyline. After you've seen it, it's not a big deal. The premier feature in this development are the video screens, which are behind AA. More than likely will only really be used as a hang out area after MAVS games.

does anyone know if they decided to put the residential back in the project?

I love Victory!!! And not because it's in Dallas (although, since I live here now, I'm glad it is). I would love it if it were in Houston, Austin or anywhere else. I think it is one of the most ambitious projects being constucting in the coutry right now. I love most of the buildings presently constructed. But will agree with mjd about the midrise condos. They seem very cold and sterile. I do love the silver plaza buildings, and I've never been crazy about AA Arena's exterior. But to each his own. I, however, don't doubt one bit, that if Victory were in Houston, most of these Houstonites that dislike it and knock it would praise it as if it was the greatest development ever. Much like they praise the soon, if ever, to be built Pavillions.

Maybe this thread's title should be changed to simply "Victory" anyway. I was surprised to learn that with all of this talk about the fabulous, and amazing Houston Pavillions that the project hasn't even begun construction and many HAIF members believe the project is dead. When the Pavillions break ground and buildings start going up, then lets compare the two. In the meantime I guess you can keep comparing it to Greenway Plaza...a comparison that is just as ridiculous.

I think you're right, many people on here would love the development if it were in Houston. However, i like the development as is in Dallas. I personally can't help but wonder why these developers chose Dallas over Houston for the location. But i don't want to be accused of trying to start a Dal VS Hou flame war, so we won't get into that.

Could you explain why you feel that comapring Greenway Plaza to Dallas Victory is ridiculous though?

anyone have any updates on this project? When is groundbreaking supposed to start?

I don't see a reason to get all caught up in this until we get a "yes or "no" from the developer.

I don't see how we could get a no when there's been several leases signed and funds secured for the project?

There won't be a Walgreens in the M Bar space; at least not anytime soon. It was a good excuse of why they closed M Bar though...

I trust you know what you're talking about seeing you ususally have an inside scoop. But is there any way to confirm this?

But, I guess, there was no official article or announcement saying that the former MBar was slated to become a Walgreens

When ships enter the port of Houston (and possibly other ocean ports as well), giant cranes will put the containers from the cargo ships onto trains, which will be shot to Dallas, where all the logistical action will take place: customs, unloading, warehousing, sorting to destination. It is as if the boat will pull up to Houston, but the longshoremen will be in Dallas.

In short, the inland port will position southern Dallas County as the major center for the transport and distribution of goods in the central United States.

Who writes this crap?

Obviously crazed and over-excited marketers that continue to try to promote Dallas to be something it's not and could never be. All Dallas port will be is an extention of Houston's Port. It will hardly be a epicenter for transportation and distribution of goods in the U.S.

If this is how Dallas is going to act, i'd rather the port not be built period, or either give it to San Antonio .

I stand by my statements. Anyone who'd like to evaluate the projects from here on can look at the two websites. Now, I believe the topic of discussion for this thread is supposed to be Victory compared to Pavillions. Anyone else who feels compelled to pull other projects from Midtown (i.e. Greenway Plaza), the Galleria Area, Woodlands, Galveston, etc, etc. into the discussion, please just start another comparison thread. Thanks in advance.

Before we get back to the Pavilions comparison, i just want to say that i agree with Houston19514 and question how you can say that Greenway Plaza is not comaprable to Victory. Not to start any war but i notice you say that you're familiar with both cities quite often when making a comparison. The only real thing that the website suggested is that Victory is a newer, hotter development with a fancier website with all the bells and whistles. When it all comes down to it, the developments are basically the same. Both are mixed use, master-planned developments with hotels and office buildings. One is 40 years older, so it's not quite as fancy as the other. One is 5 miles from the CBD, one is .5 from the CBD.

The funny thing about it, Greenway is still growing and for the better. The last time i was in Houston, they had constructed quite a few new residences and Office buildings within the Greenway Plaza area and is coming along quite nicely. Like 19514 mentioned, the Metropole will be coming along as well. Just admit 713-214 that you're very biased when it comes to your comparisons of Houston and Dallas. Your name says it all!

Your comments about Houston needing to "keep up with the times and continue to build around its downtown..." strike me as curious. Have you been to downtown Houston in the past 10 years? The changes and construction that have occurred in that time are nothing short of remarkable.

I'll admit i never saw downtown Houston prior to 2000. I'm almost glad i hadn't considering the stories i've been hearing. I'm prety much comparing downtown Houston as is to what i see in downtown Denver. While both downtowns are nice, i have to say that downtown Denver is a more live and happening place. I understand that Denver started revitalizing its downtown way before Houston. also Denver doesn't have several business districts to compete with, so that's understandable.

When i say that downtown Houston needs to keep up with the times and build everything closer to downtown is basically suggesting to steer away from sprawled-out environments. Let's continue to urbanize the central part of Houston so it won't give that "donut" vibe. The donut vibe suggest that the live is everywhere else, but not in the center where it should be.

I guess i can see how people say that Victory development and Greenway are similar. It's just that Victory has more advantages like:

1) Its newer

2) It's connected by rail

3) It's more walkable

4) It's closer to the CBD

I just think that Houston better keep up with the times and continue to build around its downtown until they can't build no more. I can't help but wonder if the Intermodal Station, Hardy railyard development, and Houston Pavilions are just pipe dreams. I hope they all happen and FAST!

Houston did a Victory-type development 30 years ago. It's called Greenway Plaza. Arena, a little retail, hotels, luxury condos, yadda yadda yadda. Sure, Victory is a little flashier than Greenway Plaza; that's partly a function of the times and partly just Dallas being Dallas.

Where's the retail in Greenway out of curiousity (Other than those new shops in front of those new apartments off Timmons facing 59)

While both cities may have access to the same resouces, the SOIL conditions in the cities are dramatically different, as is the distance from the surface to the water table - a major concern when running any substantial tunneling efforts. Houston is also has a phenomenon known as subsidence (sp?) which means we are slowly sinking, complicating tunnelling operations even further.

It has been confirmed in an article about a year ago that adding a subway in Houston is feasible. I'll find the article and post it later.

"I mean if Dallas could do it, what is the problem with Houston?" is confrontational.

Right, if Dallas can do it, why Can't Houston. Simple Question. That's not confrontational at all. I neither live in Houston or Dallas so i have no reason to start any battle. You're being hell of ridiculous by trying to make a simple question become a war. I think you're paranoid as hell. That's mainly because of the flamewars that go on between Dal and Hou. If you read my posts, you see that i rarely, if ever participate in those battles. So don't bring that crap over my way... BUD!

I have to ask how both cities have access to the same resources? That is just not true IMO.

What i mean is Dallas and Houston have access to the same funds that TXDOT allows. Forgive me if i'm not as educated as you but it only makes sense .

Was the last sentence necessary? Please leave the us vs them mentality out of the thread.

For me cost is an issue but how it affects underground infrastructure would be even MORE costly because things would have to be rerouted. The city didn't even know where certain services were while building the current line.

I was only asking... musicman. It's you who's trying to make this a city VS city thing. I was just curious how Dallas was able to pull off the cost of running a line underground and Houston has all these cost issues. Both cities are supposed to have the same access to the same resources.

Why can't they just put the darn thing underground in a section near the 610/59 interchange? I know some might think its unrealistic but why is it such a cost issue in Houston. I mean if Dallas could do it, what is the problem with Houston?

" ditto on Gary's response."

I don't believe I was making a blanket statement.

i would venture to say less that 1% of Houstonians live along the rail line as you did. So you were able to ride to the museums/zoo/the dome/etc. It saved you some time since you didn't have to park your car.

Your friends who worked in the med center saved time by taking the train instead of driving their car.

I don't really see going to a museum or eating lunch as reasons to build rail that serves less that one percent of the metro service customers. The inconvenience that is occuring because of the light rail most likely affects more than the 40000 daily ridership it attracts. If the new westpark line is built, it will be going in areas that have have heavy traffic frequently (unlike the Main street line) and therefore will affect more drivers, resulting in slower drive times for those that live/visit the area.

Sometimes i have to question you when you say you support LRT. Some of your statements indicate that you don't know if you support Light rail or not.

Are you serious? Of course its a joke; or more specifically an attempt to satirize the depths many of you Houstonian have sunk to in making this and other threads about Dallas in to a pictorial comparison with Houston.

Well , that's why i asked you if it was apart of a joke.

And we haven't seen any pics of Dallas night life on this thread, so this can't be a picture comparison thread with Dallas.