H-Town Man
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What's the story on the Bellaire? Does anyone have a picture or postcard (Subdude)? -
It would be nice if Mayor White were to get involved. I know this isn't typical for a Houston mayor, and there's really nothing obliging him to, but I just can't help thinking that if a major landmark in a place like Chicago were in jeopardy, you KNOW Mayor Daley would be all over it, flexing his muscle and protecting his city's interests.
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To me, it's more about the physical structure of the center. Look at that postcard. Look at the symmetry that it has. If there is one word I could use to describe the River Oaks in its present state, it would be "classy." Put in a parking garage, and you lose that. Put in a hulking Barnes & Noble, and you lose that. Houston is the city of the shopping center. We don't do sidewalk retail like other cities, we do shopping centers. That's the fabric of our commercial landscape. The River Oaks was our first great shopping center - the cow from which the others drew the milk. Any attempt to preserve a meaningful set of Houston architectural landmarks should start here.
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Opposition will only work if it's organized. A bunch of people crying separately will not do anything. Maybe HAIF can create a temporary category that will appear towards the top of the list (perhaps right under Going Up!) whenever there is a major preservation alert like this. Some sort of a Red Alert type thing, or Going Down!, that will catch the attention of anyone who comes here. The forum can then serve as a major meeting spot for any plans to fight this thing. Major landmarks going down are after all just as important as major landmarks going up in determining the architectural landscape of this city.
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You just compared a decentralized town to a town square. You did not compare a Kroger-anchored shopping center or a shopping mall to a town square. And in many towns that I know of, all of those uses are still in the town square. More people go to the square every day than any other location. No one would argue that a decentralized town is less successful from a market perspective. But almost everyone who grew up in, and many who have visited, a successful centralized town with a town square would say that the square offers something that the decentralized town lacks. Maybe the term 'community' comes closest to what that is. These people would recognize the notion that everything can be measured in terms of the market as very crude.
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Alright. So then how can you compare a town square with a shopping mall, considering people only go to the mall to shop, whereas people go to the town square for court business, public gatherings, visiting monuments, etc.? Doesn't make any sense.
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Niche, that's precisely what makes you a developer, and me an architecture enthusiast. If more people visit Disney World in a year than visit Frank Lloyd Wright's Falling Water, you'd judge it a greater architectural achievement.
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Niche, I don't care what's superior from a market perspective. I am interested in public space as architecture, not real estate. The town square, because it combines government with commerce, greenery, history, civic showcase, and public gathering space, offers something in this realm that indoor malls or tunnels do not. That is why people like them, and that is why a development like this will use a town square as its theme before it uses a Kroger-anchored shopping center.
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Did the courthouse squares you speak of fail because they were unsuccessful as public places? Or did they fail because the town died out, or because people abandoned the pedestrian lifestyle in favor of a car-based one? Most of our downtowns largely died out during the same time period... does that mean that the concept of a downtown is unfeasible or unsuccessful? The criticism that it's not creative is even weaker... simply because one uses a traditional form to organize space does not mean that one can't be creative. It's like saying that the traditional urban street grid is "not creative," or that downtowns are "not creative... they've been done." I can agree with the criticism that traditional, small town Texas does not fit with the Astrodome. Certainly Roy Hofheinz was not trying to hearken to small town roots when he proposed it. But most of these other criticisms make little sense.
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RedScare - I understand the difference, and I understand your critique of the project. I like to think that I have a humorous bone, but sometimes sarcasm does not come across in text.
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I understand how you thought what you thought, and I apologize for the unclarity. I don't think Latinos are the only group that appreciates the urban lifestyle. I have, however, noticed over a history of posts on this forum that they can be particularly vicious towards much of Texas' history and heritage (think of the whole 1836 soccer fiasco), and I sensed that on this thread. But I probably shouldn't have reacted so carelessly. The comment about the other 49 states was just a general comment towards people who can't stand elements of the Texas heritage being kept alive in contemporary projects. This state has a strong identity, and it usually takes precedence over any more local identity. Whether people like it or not, the Texas identity will likely always be part of Houston projects. Philip Johnson insisted on putting pink granite at the bottom of the Transco Tower because he thought all buildings in Texas should have that stone. The Astrodome itself was replete with Texas insignia, from the cowboys on the scoreboard light show to the star mounted on top of the roof. If a person is not into the Texas thing, they would probably be happier someplace else.
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Actually, that was your point. You said that the town square was a North Texas thing, and asked where in the Gulf Coast region could it be found, besides new master-planned communities. You have obviously NOT been to all of them if you think they have big box stores, strip malls, and highways that bypass the town. I can think of several on that list that do not have any of those... and several, notably La Grange, that are quite vibrant. There was a lot more to the disdain on this thread than simply the project's viability, as is obvious to anyone who does not share this disdain. Rednecks, huh? So we're down to name-calling. No Redscare, you're not prejudiced at all. You're the very picture of pleasantness.
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Wherever there is a county seat in this state, there is usually a courthouse square. Houston has one around its original courthouse, and although retail did not develop there, we also have Market Square. If you have to think of North Texas to think of towns with town squares, it shows your ignorance. Richmond, Columbus, La Grange, Halletsville, Brenham, Victoria, Fayetteville, Round Top, Gonzales, Bellville, all have town squares that are the historic and civic focal points of their towns. Houston has very strong historical connections with these towns as well - a sizeable number of Houstonians grew up in these towns, and frequently go back to them. None of these towns are "DEAD," or ever where. What towns that you have experience with do you know of that died? Ricco... you sound like an expert... what town squares do you know of that are boarded up? Why are you not convinced of the movement's "staying power"? What is so great about a traditional place? Becauses traditional places are ones that are proven to work. The town square is to Texas as the plaza is to Mexico... both are traditional, time-proven forms that today's planners can take lessons from. Yes, there is plenty of room for creativity in a town square, as there is in a plaza. And no, I was not thinking of the food court in a mall. Look at the malls around town, and you will find that they basically imitate either a street (smaller malls), or a number of streets leading up to a square of some type. There are of course exceptions, notably the Galleria, which imitates a gallery of shops in Milan. I cannot explain the belligerence in these posts other than to guess that there are some deeply held prejudices against rural and traditional Texas, for whatever reason.
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Town squares prove to be a fad in twenty years? What are you talking about? They have been around since the 1800's, and have been more successful than any other public space in this state. The point is that if you are designing an indoor shopping environment, modelling it on a public space that is traditionally successful is a much better idea than anything space themed. Most shopping malls themselves are mild imitations of town streets leading up to a central square (Willowbrook, for example). How exactly would you do a space-themed environment? Would there be a large crater with restaurant seating inside? I know you folks want this to be about Houston, but you need to understand, Texas has much more brand identity outside of this state than does Houston. Whenever I tell people out of state that I'm from Houston, they say "Oh, Texas!" In college, when my Latin prof went on a trip to Houston (this was Chicago), people would say, "So when are you leaving for Texas?" "How was Texas?"
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I didn't say that everyone who expressed dislike was Latino. The Gaylord Texan, which has a Texas theme, is very successful. I honestly think that the rural heritage angle will work better than space, if only because it makes for a more pleasant walking and shopping environment. People don't want to shop in a lunar landscape, they want to shop in a town square. Look at the situation for a moment from an architectural perspective: what public space in Texas has been more successful than the town square, with the courthouse as its focal point, repeated a hundred times across this state?
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Simply because Latino immigrants hungry for an urban lifestyle don't like traditional Texas doesn't mean other people don't. It is a no-brainer that a hotel/convention center in Texas would play up the Texas theme. If you don't like Texas, there are 49 other states. I like the blending of the dome with other elements of Texas heritage, showing that the Astrodome is a part of that heritage. The whole idea of a nineteenth-century courthouse under a twentieth-century glass dome... interesting...
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You ever notice how almost every time a truly great project is proposed that everyone on here can agree on (which is itself a minor miracle), it almost invariably "never happens," whereas whenever something detestably ugly and sprawl inducing is proposed, like _____ (fill in blank) master planned community or ____ CVS store... it happens?
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If it's a matter of he said/she said, and you're not sure what the original poster actually meant, why would you have referred to his "absurd delusions" that Midtown is only for the upper class? I get so sick of the way people look for fights on this forum, about something as innocuous as real estate, no less. Also, who says that CVS is catering solely to people who live in Midtown? They might just be catering to the hundreds of thousands of cars that pass through every day. As for Randall's, that was built to cater to the upper class - all those nice apartments and townhomes near West Gray. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but I've always heard that for new construction to happen in Midtown, it will have to serve a higher income bracket.
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The fact that the owner does not just pull the rest of it off, when a whole nice facade is just sitting right there ready to go, says a lot about the clientele downtown and what its demands are.
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I don't think he said that Midtown is only for upper classes. I think what he was trying to say is that the only people that could afford new construction with those land prices are the upper class, and since the upper class for the most part is not interested in Midtown, we are not going to see anything along the rail line for awhile except the occasional drug store.
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GreenStreet: Mixed-Use Development At 1201 Fannin St.
H-Town Man replied to MontroseNeighborhoodCafe's topic in Downtown
In defense of the naysayers, this project is following a familiar pattern: the ever-receding groundbreaking date. This has always frustrated posters, going all the way back to 1982 when the forum was just a bunch of penpals, writing letters in longhand and sending them out. The big discussion topic back then was the Bank of the Southwest tower - would it be built? Communication in those days took a long time, because each post had to be sent to a central mimeograph machine, from which copies were sent out to all the members. Everyone contributed to take care of the 19 cent postage. This historic topic garnered seven posts, at that time a record, and as us oldtimers will recall, the project experienced several delays before finally being cancelled. I still remember sitting at Gilley's in my stenciled jeans and cowboy hat, crying into my Lone Star. -
Some people on this forum just can't handle a discussion about a new downtown park without conflict. You make a simple harmless comment and you're liable for a diatribe about American society and what's wrong with it. A lot of axes being ground around here...
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Wow. http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/business/3858146.html
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- whitestone reit
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Verrrrrrrrrrrry ugly. I think some people just don't get beauty.
