Dallas has the best "total urban environment"

[worldlyman]

"Pariah, I just spent the evening driving in and around the pedestrian zones of Central Dallas... we have about 4 or 5 square miles of true urban pedestrian zones, more than almost all American cities... Dallas' total urban environment cannot be found in small places like San Antonio and Austin, or even large ones like Houston."

from a poster by the name of aceplace at the dallasmetropolis.com forum

http://forum.dallasmetropolis.com/showthread.php?t=1469

This is regarding a thread on why Dallas doesn't have a youth hostel and then the merits of the city for a backpacker are discussed.

I genuinely don't think either Houston or Dallas is cut out for "backpackers" per se. But I have to disagree with aceplace. While I think Dallas is, ah, cuter than Houston in the way some entertainment districts are laid out, I believe Houston does have a superior higher arts scene, better plethora of ethnic choices and more varied outlying supplementary attachments than Big D.

There is nothing that I've encountered in nocturnal downtown Dallas that compares to the Theater District when shows are going on. People dressed up en masse...sophistication for a Sun Belt city that is not too common in others. Houston's got that if you want it; it's not my sort of thing unless some cool play came up that I wanted to check out.

The frenetic pedestrian environment of Diho, Sin Chao and some of the other neighboring shopping centers of New Chinatown has no real equal that I've noticed in the Metroplex. I've always gotten a rush getting an outdoor table at the shaved ice place Star Snow in New Chinatown and watching people walk all over the sidewalks and lots on a Friday or Saturday night in the evening! I've never noticed this kind of action in Asian-friendly Richardson up in the Metroplex.

The Rice Village is not as funky as Greenville...but it still has the same al fresco and pedestrian flair, just in more of a grid format compared to a long strip. I love both districts because they're fun but when you go to British Isles the Village to buy some unique import Cadbury chocolates not available in regular supermarkets...at least the Houston version has real British staff everytime. I went to an equivalent in Greenville to try to get some puffed rice Cadbury and it was a good ol' American goth girl behind the register back in '95 or '96.

As far as guilty pleasures in the outlying areas, I don't think the Metroplex can offer what Galveston does with its Seawall and Strand, or Kemah with its busy and active waterfront entertainment or the forest/canals of the Woodlands. There's the canal in Irving but Las Colinas does not strike me as a place of many diversions as the Woodlands entertainment areas.

And I've preferred the true urban chic of actually being under skyscrapers in downtown Houston rather than the Bourbon Street neon imitation known as Deep Ellum when it came down to walking around crowded sidewalks and cafes/bars on a weekend night. And I've never noticed anything like a no-tsu-oh up there either. Something like that coffee house of olde, so ragged, bohemian and yet cozy nestled among the faux-South Beach scene in downtown H-town...that is the eccentricity for which the city is beloved for.

Deep Ellum was cool to me when I partied up there but when it comes to "urban", I think an active downtown Houston nightlife scene comes closer to satisfying that condition described as "urban" regardless of what district had the superior live music or night club disposition.

Don't ge me wrong, I love Dallas; it's cuter, better packaged in some ways but for aceplace to proffer that it is some superior urban environment to Houston...THAT kinda smacks of a misplaced superiority complex somewhere.

[JasonDFW]

I don't know for sure, but when Aceplace was talking about urban areas I doubt he was including or talking about Deep Ellum.

Jason

[dbigtex56]

"I just spent the evening driving in and around the pedestrian zones of Central Dallas... we have about 4 or 5 square miles of true urban pedestrian zones

If he's going to boast about "true urban pedestrian zones", shouldn't he at least get out of his car?

[musicman]

If he's going to boast about "true urban pedestrian zones", shouldn't he at least get out of his car?

LOL true.

[TexasStar]

Geez, that quote from AcePlace dates back to November 2003.

Shouldn't there be a time limit on digging up outlandish statements to complain about?

AcePlace's whereabouts are long since unknown. -- so he can't even defend his remarks.

[tierwestah]

In terms of the number of urban/centralized, pedestrian friendly areas, i think Aceplace's statement was pretty valid. Dallas has one key element that Houston is now trying to catch up with, Mass Transit. And the fact that Dallas has more areas that offer apartments and lofts above retail is also why i think Dallas is ahead.

But then again B of A, it is a Dallas forum and of course they're going to give their city extra credit. Just because Dallas is ahead in the realm of urban planning does not suggest it's an overall better city. I wouldn't trade Houston's Uptown/Galleria, Medical Center area for Dallas's Turtle Creek /Uptown area for a minute.

[scarface]

In terms of the number of urban/centralized, pedestrian friendly areas, i think Aceplace's statement was pretty valid. Dallas has one key element that Houston is now trying to catch up with, Mass Transit. And the fact that Dallas has more areas that offer apartments and lofts above retail is also why i think Dallas is ahead.

But then again B of A, it is a Dallas forum and of course they're going to give their city extra credit. Just because Dallas is ahead in the realm of urban planning does not suggest it's an overall better city. I wouldn't trade Houston's Uptown/Galleria, Medical Center area for Dallas's Turtle Creek /Uptown area for a minute.

yeah but dt Houston proper has more pedestrian areas and more to come (downtown park, HP, and existing Main Street Square) than dt Dallas. So really who's more centralized? I'd say Houston. And plus Houston has many of those areas all over the city. Some are still in planning such as (The Hardy Rail Yards/Intermodal Station, Greenway Plaza development, High Street development, TMC development, Rice U, and Blvd Place in Uptown.)

I like Dallas alot but who's to judge? I myself get bored with only having a few select places to go. You can only go to those same areas so many times without them getting stale. I'd prefer having the option to go to different parts of the city where different things are going on. Kinda adds to the diversity and excitement. All we really need is rail and that's quickly closer to becoming reality.

[tamtagon]

The way things are going in Atlanta, Dallas and Houston might find themselves in a battle for second place.

[zebra]

maybe not dallas but houston is becomming pretty stagnint in my opinon. i think its great that there so many projetcts plan for downtown but midtown isnt shapeing up to be the new jewl that develepers were expecting it to be. Midtonw needs more retail. If midtown shapes up more, then i'd be able probably say houston has the upper hand in urban developement. I really have high hopes for midtown though.

[Metro Matt]

The frenetic pedestrian environment of Diho, Sin Chao and some of the other neighboring shopping centers of New Chinatown has no real equal that I've noticed in the Metroplex. I've always gotten a rush getting an outdoor table at the shaved ice place Star Snow in New Chinatown and watching people walk all over the sidewalks and lots on a Friday or Saturday night in the evening! I've never noticed this kind of action in Asian-friendly Richardson up in the Metroplex.

I completely agree with you, but Houston's Asian areas are more "dense" & developed than what you find in Richardson, Garland, Carrollton, Arlington, Irving, & Haltom City. There are only like 3 distinctly Asian districts in Houston, where in DFW you have more of them, but they're a lot less developed & so spread out across the metro area.

BTW

I was reffering to Southeastern Asians & Koreans, not Indian.

[Spades]

The way things are going in Atlanta, Dallas and Houston might find themselves in a battle for second place.

What's going on in Atlanta that is not going on in Dallas and Houston?

[Dallasboi]

Nothing..........!

[HarryMoto]

From tam's previous posts on the dallas site, my impression is that ATL's downtown is further along in terms of urban redevelopment than either Houston or Dallas. But I don't know ATL that well to comment much but I do like the whole Midtown area which I guess would correspond to Uptown in Dallas and Houston.

[ProHouston]

From tam's previous posts on the dallas site, my impression is that ATL's downtown is further along in terms of urban redevelopment than either Houston or Dallas. But I don't know ATL that well to comment much but I do like the whole Midtown area which I guess would correspond to Uptown in Dallas and Houston.

I don't know anything about Atlanta's midtown, but I wouldn't lump Dallas' uptown in the same sentence with Uptown Houston. The two are worlds apart. You'd be better off comparing Uptown Houston to downtown Dallas.

[zaphod]

they all suck, would that be a good compromise?

[houstonfella]

This "best" urban stuff has gotta take a back seat to reality. Houston has some way cool urban environments. Not only that, when can you take a thirty minute drive to Kemah, Galveston, beaches, etc. or buy a condo on the beach or the bay in Dallas or Atlanta? OK, yes, you you have your little fresh water lakes. We have those too. So "my urban best" can beat your "urban best" almost always. Thanks, houstonfella has attitude today. >

[PapillionWyngs]

If urban equals concrete, sure.

Otherwise, NO!

[worldlyman]

I completely agree with you, but Houston's Asian areas are more "dense" & developed than what you find in Richardson, Garland, Carrollton, Arlington, Irving, & Haltom City. There are only like 3 distinctly Asian districts in Houston, where in DFW you have more of them, but they're a lot less developed & so spread out across the metro area.

BTW

I was reffering to Southeastern Asians & Koreans, not Indian.

Indeed, and I hear there's a decent Little Korea off Mockingbird.

Still, I didn't really think of places like Haltom City, Carrollton and Irving as being all that with Asian stuff...but maybe the offerings escaped my notice.

There's a good distribution of Asian shops/businesses outside of the Houston concentrations.

But I think Houston actually has more than three of decent density, or about more and less equal in number to the Metroplex towns you mention:

1)SW "New Chinatown" on Bellaire

2)Old Chinatown which is still anchored by a neat mall. And there is the very adjacent but somewhat hidden "extra" Little Saigon that hides under the 59 Fwy. Some good pho there.

3)Little Saigon "proper" off Milam, Travis, Louisiana

4)"Little Korea" off Gessner/Long Point

5)Veterans Memorial off FM 1960 has tons of Chinese, Vietnamese and Filipino businesses among others.

6)Westheimer between Wilcrest and Dairy Ashford has a good smattering of Asian businesses, particularly at Wilcrest which has a strip center which features some Japanese businesses like Nippan Daido and Yorimichi Fast Food.

7)There's a growing axis of Asian businesses there on Highway 6 and extreme S. Kirkwood (it changes name in Sugarland but I can't remember it) that is anchored by the Wel-Farm Supermarket.

[NDtexan]

This "best" urban stuff has gotta take a back seat to reality. Houston has some way cool urban environments. Not only that, when can you take a thirty minute drive to Kemah, Galveston, beaches, etc. or buy a condo on the beach or the bay in Dallas or Atlanta? OK, yes, you you have your little fresh water lakes. We have those too. So "my urban best" can beat your "urban best" almost always. Thanks, houstonfella has attitude today. >

Dude, Galveston's gross...it really makes me mad though that Texas doesn't have nice beaches like the Florida Gulf coast; it's really the one thing the state's missing

[ProHouston]

Dude, Galveston's gross...it really makes me mad though that Texas doesn't have nice beaches like the Florida Gulf coast; it's really the one thing the state's missing

That's no fault of our own. It's just dumb luck that we're located west of the Mississippi. Galveston still have some very nice areas, is historical, and is really gaining ground economically.

[tamtagon]

What's going on in Atlanta that is not going on in Dallas and Houston?

Atlanta's got a decade(+/-) of continuous high density residential development in the central city swath generally labeled as downtown and midtown. Highrise living in Atlanta had an Olympic jump-start that has not faded over the years. Many of the dwelling just coming to the market, and more which are u/c, will have moderate pricing - that's a very encouraging signal.

These tangible signs of an expanding urban environment are not what makes me say Atlanta's got going on that puts it on top. There's an atmosphere of excitment, contagious and encouraging; a street beat of prosperity resonates across town much of the time.

[Gary]

Dude, Galveston's gross...it really makes me mad though that Texas doesn't have nice beaches like the Florida Gulf coast; it's really the one thing the state's missing

To say that Galveston is gross is ubsurd, especially on an architectural forum. It also show's a lack of knowledge of the great things there are to see and do on the island. On top of that, the water can be very bareable several months of the year when winds sustain Southeast.

I won't elaborate about all of the wonderful attributes of Galveston, as you've already got your mind made up.

[NDtexan]

To say that Galveston is gross is ubsurd, especially on an architectural forum. It also show's a lack of knowledge of the great things there are to see and do on the island. On top of that, the water can be very bareable several months of the year when winds sustain Southeast.

I won't elaborate about all of the wonderful attributes of Galveston, as you've already got your mind made up.

Ok, first, I do realize that the city of Galveston does have a significant history with some great pieces of architecture that sets it apart from other Texas cities.

As far as the beach goes, you basically said it yourself...Galveston's water is "bearable" for part of the year. And I know there's more to the island than Stewart Beach, but it just doesn't compare with other beaches on the east and west and Gulf coasts. If I lived in Houston, I'm sure I'd still head elsewhere to spend to time at the beach.

[Gary]

Ok, first, I do realize that the city of Galveston does have a significant history with some great pieces of architecture that sets it apart from other Texas cities.

As far as the beach goes, you basically said it yourself...Galveston's water is "bearable" for part of the year. And I know there's more to the island than Stewart Beach, but it just doesn't compare with other beaches on the east and west and Gulf coasts. If I lived in Houston, I'm sure I'd still head elsewhere to spend to time at the beach.

If I want to look at beautiful water, I certainly don't go to California. Florida is a lot better but still lacks truly beautifull beaches, except for the keys. If I want a great beach I'm in the Bahamas, Bermuda, Jamaica, etc.

Galveston is so much more than a beach as you somewhat posted in your rebuttle. It's also a huge beach going spot for Houstonians, which is why your remark "If I lived in Houston, I'm sure I'd still head elsewhere to spend to time at the beach" would leave you in the minority.

[RedScare]

...it really makes me mad though that Texas doesn't have nice beaches like the Florida Gulf coast; it's really the one thing the state's missing

He's right, you know. Texas beaches really DO suck.

[Gary]

That wave looks like something you would see at "The Pipeline". Can't believe that's Padre.

[NDtexan]

He's right, you know. Texas beaches really DO suck.

Yep, that's the awesome surf you'll see on a typical day at south padre....oh, wait what does that say in the lower right hand corner? Picture taken the day Katrina struck...good lord, please don't try to fool us anymore.

[RedScare]

It's still Texas water.

BTW, here's NORTH Padre...

...and, SOUTH Padre (on a calmer day)...

[TheNiche]

It's still Texas water.

BTW, here's NORTH Padre...

...and, SOUTH Padre (on a calmer day)...

I have a collection of old Official Texas Highway Maps (none of the gas station maps, just those issued by TXDoT). Their cover art always immediately betrays the period in which it was designed. My favorite of the bunch is, I think, the 1967 map. It depicts a young couple walking down an empty undeveloped beach on a sunny day, with dunes in the foreground and a light surf in the background.

The illustrator captured the essential beauty of a lonesome Texas beach...only relatively few people seem to relate to this vision anymore because most of us don't take the time to journey out to those far-flung beaches and those that were once accessible have been developed and populated...I consider myself lucky to have grown up with parents who had an affinity for such places.