Bridge Over Brazos St. At Spur 527

[ToryGattis]

40 minutes ago, Luminare said:

 

You can't just jettison all those potential variables like they are nothing. There might be something to that. How do you know they are sophisticated? What info do you have? Please share. Like most things zeroing in on just one thing like the freeway closure is probably not the most logical conclusion in regards to why they aren't hitting their numbers. Maybe its multiple factors we don't know. I'm willing to concede that the freeway closure plays a big part, but again this was closed for awhile now. You even admit that they really haven't penetrated the neighborhood they are in yet, and probably haven't tried. They could have done more, and they didn't.

 

As a former McKinsey management consultant, I know enough to know that these types of companies have very sophisticated models to determine where they build new locations and what the forecast sales will be.  It's way too big of an investment not to.  And I do think they have tried to get the word out. I live a fair distance away, but they mailed me very substantial coupons when they opened.  I suspect the local residential draw zone is small (Midtown + museum district + part of Neartown, third ward has small customer base, and go much further west and residents will go to the Waugh or Kirby locations), so they were counting on pass-through traffic stopping in, the same as Specs.  In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if Specs was their inspiration for choosing that location.

[Ponchorello]

Not sure why everyone ignores THE #1 data point for any retailer/restaurant....TRAFFIC COUNT.  You reduce traffic count i.e. visibility then you basically can reduce sales.  It has and always will be the most important factor.  

 

I read a few of you say well its only a couple of blocks away...that couple of blocks is so huge in retail.  Have you ever wondered why so much is developed at busy intersections??  Yeah, its called traffic count.  Its the same for freeway development...why are so many businesses along the freeways??  Same data point.  Nothing has changed from 40 years ago people.  If you don't see it you dont think about it.  Its as simple as that.  

 

Its also why any space for lease/sale along busy streets are much higher than those set inside or tucked away.   I have 2 retail front stores selling the same product service.  One off of Alabama and another tucked in Heights.  Which do you think does better?  West Alabama because its on the street with traffic even though Heights according to other data points such as income say I should be making more money in the Heights.

[ToryGattis]

2 hours ago, Ponchorello said:

Not sure why everyone ignores THE #1 data point for any retailer/restaurant....TRAFFIC COUNT.  You reduce traffic count i.e. visibility then you basically can reduce sales.  It has and always will be the most important factor.  

 

I read a few of you say well its only a couple of blocks away...that couple of blocks is so huge in retail.  Have you ever wondered why so much is developed at busy intersections??  Yeah, its called traffic count.  Its the same for freeway development...why are so many businesses along the freeways??  Same data point.  Nothing has changed from 40 years ago people.  If you don't see it you dont think about it.  Its as simple as that.  

 

Its also why any space for lease/sale along busy streets are much higher than those set inside or tucked away.   I have 2 retail front stores selling the same product service.  One off of Alabama and another tucked in Heights.  Which do you think does better?  West Alabama because its on the street with traffic even though Heights according to other data points such as income say I should be making more money in the Heights.

 

I've seen that first-hand in my Midtown neighborhood. When Oakmont opened at Baldwin and Pierce, a block back from the main drags of Bagby and West Gray, I thought it would boom. Very cool multi-story bar and patio that had a lot of money sunk into it - like a smaller Axelrad. But it's been dead, and the only reason I can see is because it's not along any of the main drags through Midtown.  It's way cooler than Front Porch or Belle Station along West Gray, but those places are packed and it's dead, even though it's only a block away!

Edited March 7, 2020 by ToryGattis

[dbigtex56]

On 3/6/2020 at 11:11 AM, ToryGattis said:

But I still don't see any realistic way the park doesn't become a homeless camp.

I'm struggling to think of any parks that have become homeless camps, and have come up with zero.
If you're looking for homeless camps, try overpasses, freeway ROWs, and privately owned vacant lots. 

[KinkaidAlum]

If Whole Foods was relying on fly-by traffic to stop in while people were zooming through Midtown to get to US 59, then they didn't hire a good local consultant. Houstonians do NOT think parking garage grocery shopping is convenient. Nobody who lives in in SW Houston/Fort Bend is going to pull over, navigate a garage, deal with getting back on the freeway with Midtown one-way streets just to pick up some bananas. Lets get real here. Houstonians are a lazy-assed people. If there's no convenient parking people aren't doing it. 

 

That Whole Foods was built for local folks and foot traffic from all the rooftops nearby. That'll take time to build. I am sure Whole Foods knew they'd have to grow into the market slowly. Trying to blame poor results on a freeway entrance closure is a stretch.

Edited March 7, 2020 by KinkaidAlum

[Ponchorello]

3 hours ago, KinkaidAlum said:

If Whole Foods was relying on fly-by traffic to stop in while people were zooming through Midtown to get to US 59, then they didn't hire a good local consultant. Houstonians do NOT think parking garage grocery shopping is convenient. Nobody who lives in in SW Houston/Fort Bend is going to pull over, navigate a garage, deal with getting back on the freeway with Midtown one-way streets just to pick up some bananas. Lets get real here. Houstonians are a lazy-assed people. If there's no convenient parking people aren't doing it. 

 

That Whole Foods was built for local folks and foot traffic from all the rooftops nearby. That'll take time to build. I am sure Whole Foods knew they'd have to grow into the market slowly. Trying to blame poor results on a freeway entrance closure is a stretch.

That argument doesn't quite apply.  If so, then every freeway restaurant/retailer/business would be dead.  All those cars are doing 50mph+.  Its visibility..its being in the mind, just like a billboard along every freeway.  Again...why are billboards so darn expensive....hmmm bingo....TRAFFIC COUNT!

Edited March 7, 2020 by Ponchorello

[KinkaidAlum]

It's the termination of the Spur not a corner of 610 and 59. Nobody is randomly driving by on the Spur. 

[Ponchorello]

23 hours ago, KinkaidAlum said:

It's the termination of the Spur not a corner of 610 and 59. Nobody is randomly driving by on the Spur. 

 

 

Its easy for you to say when you don't own a business.  When and if you do start your own...we will have that talk again about it.

[KinkaidAlum]

I currently an owner/investor in multiple hard retail businesses in several markets (Boston, Houston, Denver, and Los Angeles) but please continue...

[Ponchorello]

11 hours ago, KinkaidAlum said:

I currently an owner/investor in multiple hard retail businesses in several markets (Boston, Houston, Denver, and Los Angeles) but please continue...

 

 

Then im kinda taken back you believe declined traffic count doesn't affect the bottom line of a business....

 

Your business model must be insulated from these types of changes because the 10 businesses I have in Houston , the 6 in Colorado, 3 in Dallas and 1 in San Antonio are sensitive to decreased traffic.  

 

I am very impressed to say the least.

 

[BeerNut]

 

[HBC06]

I just attended a neighborhood meeting with representatives from the city, local residents along Westheimer, and a lot of local business owners. There are a few currents in this discussion that I think might be based on assumptions about the issue on which I'd like to add my perspective.

 

First, some posters seem to frame this as a conflict of interest between Midtown/Montrose and the broader interests of Houston's commuters. My neighbors and I are all against the removal of these traffic flows. The roads, entrances, and exits that they are talking about removing are all important options for those of us who live here. With more construction looming on Elgin, it will only become more important to keep as many paths open as possible. As the area grows more dense, as it is doing and ought to, removal of transportation works sounds like the wrong direction to us. We are on the same side as Houston's commuters. We still can't figure out where this idea came from, but it seems to be driven now by our neighbors on Courtland and other nearby residents who rightly think a park sounds nice but don't use these roads all the time.

 

Second, the proposal is not a park. It's proponents don't even have the chutzpah to call it a park. It's two slivers of green space which might or might not be more appealing to walk past than the tuft of trees currently between Brazos and Bagby. The area can be beautified without shutting off access. 

 

Third, there is nothing about the proposal that makes the area more "walkable". Green spaces are nice, but what gives a neighborhood its walkability is the range of amenities within walking distance. The restaurants and nightlife give character to the area and the availability of stores, pharmacies, laundries, etc. make it easy to live there. Anything that puts additional pressure on local businesses stifles the growth of more amenities to accommodate more residents, and could even threaten existing ones. The speed control measures in those proposals are not necessary on those streets that have plenty of traffic signals. 

[ToryGattis]

9 minutes ago, HBC06 said:

I just attended a neighborhood meeting with representatives from the city, local residents along Westheimer, and a lot of local business owners. There are a few currents in this discussion that I think might be based on assumptions about the issue on which I'd like to add my perspective.

 

First, some posters seem to frame this as a conflict of interest between Midtown/Montrose and the broader interests of Houston's commuters. My neighbors and I are all against the removal of these traffic flows. The roads, entrances, and exits that they are talking about removing are all important options for those of us who live here. With more construction looming on Elgin, it will only become more important to keep as many paths open as possible. As the area grows more dense, as it is doing and ought to, removal of transportation works sounds like the wrong direction to us. We are on the same side as Houston's commuters. We still can't figure out where this idea came from, but it seems to be driven now by our neighbors on Courtland and other nearby residents who rightly think a park sounds nice but don't use these roads all the time.

 

Second, the proposal is not a park. It's proponents don't even have the chutzpah to call it a park. It's two slivers of green space which might or might not be more appealing to walk past than the tuft of trees currently between Brazos and Bagby. The area can be beautified without shutting off access. 

 

Third, there is nothing about the proposal that makes the area more "walkable". Green spaces are nice, but what gives a neighborhood its walkability is the range of amenities within walking distance. The restaurants and nightlife give character to the area and the availability of stores, pharmacies, laundries, etc. make it easy to live there. Anything that puts additional pressure on local businesses stifles the growth of more amenities to accommodate more residents, and could even threaten existing ones. The speed control measures in those proposals are not necessary on those streets that have plenty of traffic signals. 

 

So how would you characterize the overall opinion of the crowd pro and con? Or the proportions of the split?

[HBC06]

This meeting was all con - what I said about who I assumed was in favor was, admittedly, hearsay. It was nice of the community relations person from the city to endure the fury the whole time. But would have been nicer to have public forums instead of just meeting with one neighborhood group at a time.

 

Just to clarify , when I say 'con' I mean against the "green space" proposals, and in favor of the original plan to finish the bridge. 

Edited March 11, 2020 by HBC06
missing pronoun

[ToryGattis]

9 hours ago, HBC06 said:

This meeting was all con - what I said about who I assumed was in favor was, admittedly, hearsay. It was nice of the community relations person from the city to endure the fury the whole time. But would have been nicer to have public forums instead of just meeting with one neighborhood group at a time.

 

Just to clarify , when I say 'con' I mean against the "green space" proposals, and in favor of the original plan to finish the bridge. 

 

At the business owners meeting, Jeff from the City said they were specifically trying to avoid one or two giant public meetings because it's hard to make those productive. Most people never get a chance to speak. They wanted to do a series of smaller neighborhood meetings instead where more people could give their perspective.  I suspect that also makes it easier to summarize and bring to the Mayor: he can just say which groups were pro or con.  I'm curious what the tenor will be at the Midtown Super Neighborhood meeting tomorrow.

[Aksarben]

I attended a meeting last night regarding this project and these are questions that need to be answered:

• How will the traffic on Smith Street be affected by the two planned high-rises (20 story) being built along that street?  Cars departing both plan on using Smith Street as it’s garage exit and the traffic study for both counted on the Bagby Bridge being in place.

• The cost of replacing the Bagby Bridge was in hand and planned, but at some point someone or entity came in and proposed removing the bridge.....who was that entity?

• The homeless problem was brought up and the city reps said it shouldn’t be a problem, they gave the example of low homeless #’s of other green areas like Buffalo Bayou Park.  It was pointed out that unlike Buffalo Bayou Park, we have multiple soup kitchens and shelters within 5 blocks of the proposed project.  They seemed perplexed by the facts.  (and for those that think the homeless may limit themselves to the green area once camped, will be sadly mistaken).

• We asked where the project docket is located so that we could view all comments sent in; they had no information on how to let the public view comments.

• We asked why they haven’t had public meetings on the subject.  They couldn’t answer the question.

• We asked who will make the final decision the city council or the mayor’s office.  We were told that a recommendation would be made to the mayor.  As a follow-up they couldn’t explain how input would impact the recommendation.

The cost of replacing the bridge and putting in the green zone will be the same. 

The contract for replacing the bridge was already in place and then cancelled.

Until the above questions can be answered, I will not be climbing on the removal bandwagon.

[ToryGattis]

6 minutes ago, Aksarben said:

I attended a meeting last night regarding this project and these are questions that need to be answered:

• The cost of replacing the Bagby Bridge was in hand and planned, but at some point someone or entity came in and proposed removing the bridge.....who was that entity?

 

Jeff from the City said that Bill Fulton of the Kinder Institute at Rice reached out to get them to look at other options rather than just replace the bridge.

[Aksarben]

11 minutes ago, ToryGattis said:

 

Jeff from the City said that Bill Fulton of the Kinder Institute at Rice reached out to get them to look at other options rather than just replace the bridge.

....and did he provide what economic/traffic impacts that change would inflict...or was it a "hey I have an idea".......

[ToryGattis]

7 minutes ago, Aksarben said:

....and did he provide what economic/traffic impacts that change would inflict...or was it a "hey I have an idea".......

 

Definitely "hey I have an idea".  The impact assessment and community feedback is what they're doing now.  They've done the traffic study, but I don't think they have a real handle on the economic impact.

[Aksarben]

18 hours ago, BeerNut said:

 

Something very suspect about the traffic volume table above.....says there was no south traffic during 4 out of 7 days but gives a 7 day average and total for 7 days?  You really want us to believe there was no traffic at all for 4 days?

[ToryGattis]

18 hours ago, BeerNut said:

 

 

@BeerNut after the Mayor's health emergency declaration today, can you confirm whether or not this event is still happening? The website doesn't look like it's regularly updated.

 

[BeerNut]

@ToryGattis I haven't seen anything on their web page or received an updated email.

[BeerNut]

@ToryGattis Canceled

 

 

Edited March 11, 2020 by BeerNut

[ToryGattis]

Update: Opposition seems to be mobilizing. New website has appeared as well as opposing signage.

 

https://stopbagbyclosure.com/

 

Edited March 17, 2020 by ToryGattis

[hindesky]

1 hour ago, ToryGattis said:

Update: Opposition seems to be mobilizing. New website has appeared as well as opposing signage.

 

https://stopbagbyclosure.com/

 

Saw this as they were putting this yesterday but it wasn't unfurled so I couldn't read it.

[dbigtex56]

Thanks for posting the link. 
The website gives email addresses where public officials can be contacted, which I've found useful to express my support for the permanent closure of this segment of the Spur.

[trymahjong]

I got an email from an Avondaler  ( who “just” found out that COH was trying to sneak in the closure of Bagby) asking me to sign the StopBagbyCloseure petition—  I responded that the open meeting (hosted by Westmoreland Civic 6 weeks ago at MontroseCenter)on the 3 proposals was posted on Nextdoor and didn’t seem sneaky at all.

Next day BikeHouston emailed a StoptheBrazosHighwayRamp-Buildapark petition.

 

guess these proposals will prove a gentle way to deflect attention away from Coronavirus?

[hindesky]

2 Groups that are "For" the Brazos Street Bridge Park.

[BeerNut]

[hindesky]

The signs against the park are popping up all around Montrose and Midtown.