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Highway6

Imam Rauf vs Rev Jones

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I don't condone what Rev Jones plans to do this Saturday. Having a bonfire of Qurans is asking for trouble. He's an idiot for doing this... I don't understand his reasons, but its disrespectful to all Muslims, peaceful and nutjobs.

However, I do have a problem with the response and the double standard applied.

When Imam Rauf wants to open a mosque at Ground Zero, while most of NYC is outraged, Pres Obama response:

"Muslims have the right to practice their religion as everyone else in this country," an apparent show of support for the mosque.

On Saturday, while spending the day in the Gulf, the president clarified, "I was not commenting and I will not comment on the wisdom of making the decision to put a mosque there. I was commenting very specifically on the right people have that dates back to our founding. That's what our country is about."

His response is to the legality of it... the right to do it. His response is not to the wisdom of doing it or whether it is the right thing to do.

Now dumbass Rev Jones wants to burn a bunch of Quarans. The Obama response:

is a "recruitment bonanza for al Qaeda," President Barack Obama said Thursday.

"You could have serious violence in places like Pakistan or Afghanistan" as a result of the proposal by the Rev. Terry Jones of the Gainesville, Florida-based Dove World Outreach Center, Obama said on ABC's "Good Morning America." "This could increase the recruitment of individuals who'd be willing to blow themselves up in American cities, or European cities."

His response is only to the wisdom of it.. Every official response out there is essentially saying this is dumb and asking for trouble. And it is, Obama is right. But where is the additional statement acknowledging that Rev whackjob has the right to do this. Where is the response that if in practicing his religion, he feels the need to make a point buy burning Quarans, that right should be respected.

I think Obama's words in response to Rev Jones are spot on, I think he's right in the ramifications. But it does tick me off more since it so shortly follows his mosque response. If he's smart enough now to understand the difference between the right to do something and the wisdom of doing it... why didn't he respond in kind during the mosque response.

Where was the response to the wisdom of building the Mosque at Ground Zero? Where was the quote along the lines of ... " Lots of NYers disagree with this and we could see a violent backlash from Christian Fundamentalists or patriotic NYers" ?

[Rant]

I don't understand the double standard in this country. Why do muslims get a free pass? Mosques around the country should while condemning the Quran burning, should at the same time be condemning any possible violent response by domestic muslim extremists. Drudge currently has on their right column, a dozen short snippets from those on the right, the left, religious leaders.. the responses are all similar.. "Dumb and asking for trouble" We've become a country of pansies. No, the entire world has put on a skirt to take it when offending Muslims are concerned. They aren't special. they have no more or less rights to respect than Christians, Jews, Buddists, anyone... yet the extremists in their midst literally can get away with murder, or the threat of murder, and everyone else is expected handle them with kid gloves.

[/Rant]

Rev Jones is a dumbass, I'll be surprised if he's still alive a week from now.... but this incident does go to show the double standard of Obama's responses and the double standard in how religious tolerance is applied in this country.

Edited by Highway6
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I find the comparison of an act of construction (building a place of worship) to an act of destruction (burning of holy books) to be interesting. I also find it interesting that you find the acts to be equal. However, I do not share you belief that it is a double standard.

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Both incidents deal with religious tolerance.. I expect response by officials to be equal in how applied, if not degree.

The latest....

GAINESVILLE, Fla. – The minister of a Florida church said he has canceled plans to burn copies of the Quran because the leader of a much-opposed plan to build an
near ground zero has agreed to move its location. The agreement couldn't be immediately confirmed.

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Why do muslims get a free pass?

Because they're Americans, and the Bill of Rights (1st Amendment) applies to everyone.

God, or whoever, Bless America.

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Both incidents deal with religious tolerance.. I expect response by officials to be equal in how applied, if not degree.

The latest....

GAINESVILLE, Fla. – The minister of a Florida church said he has canceled plans to burn copies of the Quran because the leader of a much-opposed plan to build an
near ground zero has agreed to move its location. The agreement couldn't be immediately confirmed.

Does that expectation extend to Secretary of Defense and former Texas A&M president Robert Gates?

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/checkpoint-washington/2010/09/pentagon_weighs_call_to_try_to.html

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Does that expectation extend to Secretary of Defense and former Texas A&M president Robert Gates?

http://voices.washin..._to_try_to.html

He is not exempt.. it applies to whoever is giving an official response for the administration. For some officials, it may be more suitable to respond to one situation, but not another. In this case, we don't know yet what was said between Gates and the rev., and we will never know what Gates would have said on the mosque situation since to my knowledge, his opinion hadn't been asked or reported.

When Harry Reid responded to the mosque situation, he was able to distinguish between 'right to do' and 'should do'.

""The First Amendment protects freedom of religion," said Reid spokesman Jim Manley. "Sen. Reid respects that but thinks that the mosque should be built someplace else.""

I don't know if he has issued a statement on the Rev, but I would hope it would be consistent.

Because they're Americans, and the Bill of Rights (1st Amendment) applies to everyone.

God, or whoever, Bless America.

Of course the bill of rights applies to them... that isnt at debate here.

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Well, they are consistent. They are consistent in attemtping to protect the rights and lives of Americans from all threats, foreign and domestic, just as they promised to do in the oaths that they took. I am disappointed that you are unable to see that. Frankly, this is not even a close call. No one has denied the POS' right to burn books. They have pointed out the threat to Americans by his threat to do so. Speaking of consistency, why have you suddenly decided that putting US troops and diplomats' lives at stake for the sake of an attention grabbing whore is a proper role of US officials tasked with protecting them? Even Sarah Palin sided with the President on this one.

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. Speaking of consistency, why have you suddenly decided that putting US troops and diplomats' lives at stake for the sake of an attention grabbing whore is a proper role of US officials tasked with protecting them? Even Sarah Palin sided with the President on this one.

Interesting. I believe the Patriot Act is worded in such a way that the FBI could classify Pastor Cracker an enemy combatant and make it go away. I'm frankly surprised the DoD isn't pressing the issue harder to shut this guy up. Between the mosque protests and this guy, our troops in Afghanistan have even bigger targets painted on their helmets, and the Pakistanis don't exactly provide trustworthy cover.

Point being, I can imagine a number of scenarios where if the pastor were not a white Christian in an election year, he might well already be detained 'for questioning.'

Edited by crunchtastic

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The issue here is how can normal, educated people seriously be emotionally affected by contrived "news" stories? laugh.gif

The IDEA has already been planted in society's consciousness and can/will spawn copycat meme's. The best part about all this is that burning a Koran is the proper way to dispose of it. If you really want to insult them, throw it in the trash or step on it.

The evidence of America's failing school systems is piling up...

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Well, they are consistent. They are consistent in attemtping to protect the rights and lives of Americans from all threats, foreign and domestic, just as they promised to do in the oaths that they took. I am disappointed that you are unable to see that. Frankly, this is not even a close call. No one has denied the POS' right to burn books. They have pointed out the threat to Americans by his threat to do so. Speaking of consistency, why have you suddenly decided that putting US troops and diplomats' lives at stake for the sake of an attention grabbing whore is a proper role of US officials tasked with protecting them? Even Sarah Palin sided with the President on this one.

No one has denied him.. yet... Paul Begala just said on CNN "He is inciting hatred and should be held accountable for it." ... If by held accountable he means, accept that people and extemists arent going to be too happy and come after him, That is one thing. IF he means, "should be pre-emptively stopped".. then apparently the bill of rights isnt for everyone.

I agree with Gates, Obama, Palin, everyone on saying this guy shouldnt do this. Reread my opening post. To quote myself - "I think Obama's words in response to Rev Jones are spot on, I think he's right in the ramifications."

My issue is in comparison to what he didnt say during his mosque comments. If Harry Reid could get it right, why couldnt Obama? Nobody questions whether the Imam had the right to build a mosque there... yet, that is all Obama would answer. Since Obama couldnt bring himself to say.. "But he prolly shouldnt build a mosque there", he apparently is in the minority that feels the sensibilities of NewYorkers be damned compared to religious freedom of a non-Christian religion.

2/3rds of New Yorkers, one of our most left leaning cities, feel the mosque should be built elsewhere.

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Interesting. I believe the Patriot Act is worded in such a way that the FBI could classify Pastor Cracker an enemy combatant and make it go away. I'm frankly surprised the DoD isn't pressing the issue harder to shut this guy up. Between the mosque protests and this guy, our troops in Afghanistan have even bigger targets painted on their helmets, and the Pakistanis don't exactly provide trustworthy cover.

You are proving my point. You see the mosque protests as the evil. Sensibilities of 2/3s of NYC be damned, if ya protest, you're just feeding the crazy, homicidal maniac muslim extremsits.... and they must be loved and read bed time stories instead. Don't poke the bear.

I'm guessing if some Christian preacher made some veiled threat that Fundamentalist Christian extremists would come after the new mosque, there would be many more people up in arms against them.... not a word has been said when the Imam said the same on Cnn last night. Why? Apparently muslim overreaction and violence is just seen as inevitable and therefore tolerable.

There apparently isnt enough Fear of God to balance out Fear of Allah in the world today.

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Both issues are examples of religious intolerance not tolerance.

2/3rds of New Yorkers, one of our most left leaning cities, feel the mosque should be built elsewhere.

It's a truly great thing that private property is not subject to the tyranny of the mob mentality.

Should we vote/poll people to determine whether the Pastor should have the right to burn the books?

There apparently isnt enough Fear of God to balance out Fear of Allah in the world today.

To be fair there are more Muslims from poor countries with lower educational expectations & therefore more prone to violence. We don't "tolerate" it, we just deal with it. We have come to expect better behavior from Americans.

Edited by LegacyTree

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You are simultaneously confusing viewpoints and rights guaranteed under the Constitution. I feel safe in speaking for crunch in saying that it is not the right of you and 2/3 of New Yorkers to complain about a mosque that she and I find objectionable. It is the argument that you propound that we disagree with. Likewise, we do not object to the right of a southern fried redneck preacher to burn books. We find his views disgusting...as is our right. Obama, and the US administration is concerned that a publicity seeking douchebag may be putting US lives in danger, and has spoken up about their fears...which is exactly what they should do.

As I understand it, the FBI paid a visit to the Rev. POS. My neighbor and I believe that while expressing their concerns that US lives may be endangered, the Special Agents may have let slip their knowledge of some of the reverends other activities...and which sections of the US Code might discourage such activities. Given that a high percentage of these nutjobs also tend to have a lackadaisical attitude toward following rules that they did not make up themselves, this conversation may have influenced the reverend's softer stance this evening. And, I'm fine with that. Those who draw attention to themselves do not get to choose who gives them attention or why. If they also draw the attention of law enforcement, so be it (witness the number of idiots arrested after posting on Facebook, MySpace and Craiglist. Also witness the number of reality stars who end up in jail).

Since you asked, I reread your first post. You are picking nits. Get over it. No one has questioned this guys right to burn books, so no response was needed. Many people demanded that the right to build a mosque be denied the imam.

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I feel safe in speaking for crunch in saying that it is not the right of you and 2/3 of New Yorkers to complain about a mosque that she and I find objectionable.

We don't have a right to complain? I thought we did.

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A few comments / opinions with regard to the religion issues we have been dealing with lately... may be off topic maybe not...

1) I find it interesting that riots broke out across portions of the Middle East with many screaming "Death to America" b/c that nutty pastor wanted to burn those Qurans. Did those rioters not see that 99% of Americans where actually against what that whackjob was doing... that 99% of Americans did not want to see the Qurans burn... that 99% of Americans sided with the Muslims in the Middle East on the issue... and yet they still chanted "Death to America".

2) With regard to the Mosque at Ground Zero... what has happened to America? I can totally understand people being upset over it even though the VAST majority of Muslims are not terrorists... but this is America and they have the right to build it if they want. Even if 99% of New Yorkers don't want it built there they still have the right to build it. What makes America so amazing is that people have the right to do things like this even though it angers so many.

I always loved this quote from Michael Douglas' character in The American President...

America isn't easy. America is advanced citizenship. You gotta want it bad, 'cause it's gonna put up a fight. It's gonna say "You want free speech? Let's see you acknowledge a man whose words make your blood boil, who's standing center stage and advocating at the top of his lungs that which you would spend a lifetime opposing at the top of yours. You want to claim this land as the land of the free? Then the symbol of your country can't just be a flag; the symbol also has to be one of its citizens exercising his right to burn that flag in protest. Show me that, defend that, celebrate that in your classrooms. Then, you can stand up and sing about the "land of the free".

Americans need to stop buying into the fear mongering coming from the right wing in this Nation (e.g. Fox News, Sarah Palin, Sean Hannity, Newt Gingrich)... it's only going to cause us more problems in the end. Americans should actually be celebrating that Muslim community center being built near ground zero. We should be showing the world that even after what happened on 9/11 we are still America... we are still a Nation that stands for FREEDOM!

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My issue is in comparison to what he didnt say during his mosque comments. If Harry Reid could get it right, why couldnt Obama? Nobody questions whether the Imam had the right to build a mosque there... yet, that is all Obama would answer. Since Obama couldnt bring himself to say.. "But he prolly shouldnt build a mosque there"

He has a right to build the mosque there and building the mosque at this location is not in bad taste. The site was formerly a Burlington Coat Factory. It holds no special reverence.

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Yes, they have the right to build there and yes they others have the right to burn holy books. And yes both groups are stupid for doing so.

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I don't condone what Rev Jones plans to do this Saturday. Having a bonfire of Qurans is asking for trouble. He's an idiot for doing this... I don't understand his reasons, but its disrespectful to all Muslims, peaceful and nutjobs.

However, I do have a problem with the response and the double standard applied.

There is a double standard when it comes to Muslims in America, American politicians want us to believe that we have to cater to them, that we have to allow the country as we know it to be changed so that we do not offend them anymore, because everyone in this country should be free to practice whatever religion they see fit. Political correctness has run amuck in this country. The age of the internet and fast spreading video/internet has brought upon this country the inability to stand up for itself for fear of being labeled a racist, or an intolerant person, and getting your picture plastered across the media for someone elses gain. It is destroying this country. It is allowing this country to have no national identity. New residents/immigrants do not even attempt to adopt our way of life, rather they pick and choose what they want to adopt. They want to adopt the ability to protest as long as nobody protests them....if you protest against them, your intolerant, or a racist (see the entire tea party movement). We are allowing this country to essentially become a nation of laws with absolutely no national identity - The longer this type of acceptance, and pussification goes on the worse this country will be. It is what got Obama elected in the first place. The blacks showed up and voted entirely because of race, certain whites voted out of guilt, young people voted to do something cool and new, and liberals voted for his ideals. Anyone opposed was just a racist.

With that said, as much as I hate the idea of a mosque near ground zero, the private property rights side of me makes me say let them build it, it is their private property and you should not be able to stop it just because you dont like it. After its built, someone else can utilize their private property rights and build things next door and all around it that are equally as offensive to muslims as the mosque is to the people of New York who see this mosque as a trophy for the devastation done in their religion's name. I can think of several things that could be built around it that could test their tolerance. SPCA adoption facility for stray/homeless dogs. Pork factory (upwind of course). Street vendors selling pork products, sex shops, a holocaust memorial, etc.

I am one of those who wants the laws applied evenly, but does not allow the loudest group of complainers to get their way just because they are loud....I dont think this country is headed in the right direction at all, but I think that enough people are finally waking up and getting angry enough to at least put the brakes on the direction we are headed. We may not make a U-turn like I want, but we will at least put the brakes on the downhill slide we are in.

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It comes down to this - freedom of speech is regardless of polarity, but public perception is historically very good at jumping all over the outspoken negative versus the positive. On this specific issue, the building of the mosque is simply a group wanting to practice what they believe in. The act or idea of burning a bunch of Qurans doesn't stand for anything - it's just against something. So yeah, Reverend idiot is going to look like the bad guy in all of this. The anti stance is most always going to take more criticism than someone who is speaking out as pro-something.

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He has a right to build the mosque there

Not the issue here.

building the mosque at this location is not in bad taste.

Your opinion differs from the majority of the people that live closest to that location.

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Your opinion differs from the majority of the people that live closest to that location.

His opinion differs with the majority of America, not just those near the location. The majority of polls show some 71-80% of Americans dont believe it should be there and is poor judgment. Many believe it is intolerant.

I dont think anyone questions their right to build it. They question the appropriateness of the location.

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Moslims and Islam Were Part of Twin Tower's Life (New York Times, Sept 12 2010)

"He staggered out to the gathering place at Broadway and Vesey. From that corner, he watched the south tower collapse, to be followed soon by the north one. Somewhere in the smoking, burning mountain of rubble lay whatever remained of the prayer room, and also of some of the Muslims who had used it.

Given the vitriolic opposition now to the proposal to build a Muslim community center two blocks from ground zero, one might say something else has been destroyed: the realization that Muslim people and the Muslim religion were part of the life of the World Trade Center. "

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