Potential Loss of Greenspace in Houston

[Heights2Bastrop]

If you use the links I originally provided you would not have these questions. This will be my last reply to you.

I grew up near this park, and I have driven by it numerous times over my 57 years there. I rarely saw anyone using the "park" for any reason at all. I believe they added a baseball backstop to a part of it, but I never saw anyone using it.

As to "needing" the park for walking, it is a mere stone's throw from the park and hike and bike trail along White Oak Bayou which is not only better, but much safer to use.

Don't get me wrong - I love that area, and I would hate to see it used for other purposes. But let's not get carried away with the "questionable" stastics that Website sites.

[bachanon]

I would not mind seeing her in a tree any day.

she still rocks!

bachanon sings.......'sum-mer lo-ver's' indeed she does.

even though this area is close to the hike & bike trails, there are age specific playgrounds that can be a great asset to any neighborhood. for instance, many parks have three or more play areas, each for different age children. a large park can have several play areas connected by walk ways to picnic, pavilion and/or sports areas. a twenty acre park could have extensive natural preserves along with a pond to aid in neighborhood runoff during downbursts.

timber grove should attempt to acquire at least a portion of this property for recreational use. i do like the idea of more greenspace. however, if timber grove residents are unconcerned, then, let it go to the highest bidder.

[Heights2Bastrop]

Perhaps someone "in the business" would give us a ballpark figure on what 20 acres of prime real estate in a desirable area like Timbergrove is worth. $1 million? $10 million? More?

Does anyone seriously think Timbergrove residents would pay that?

[bachanon]

Perhaps someone "in the business" would give us a ballpark figure on what 20 acres of prime real estate in a desirable area like Timbergrove is worth. $1 million? $10 million? More?

Does anyone seriously think Timbergrove residents would pay that?

i don't know how many homeowners are in timber grove. $1,000,000.00 is quite a chunk for 200-300 homes. it might be completely unfeasable to expect timber grove residents to foot the bill. the timber grove homeowner's association may be hoping for new development. it's easy to fantasize about the best use for property; however, the reality of a thing is a whole other story.

if i were a timber grove resident and was concerned about the acreage, i would find out what the neighborhood association is thinking first. find out where you are as a community and learn as much about the property and its owners' (HISD's) intentions.

[Heights2Bastrop]

if i were a timber grove resident and was concerned about the acreage, i would find out what the neighborhood association is thinking first. find out where you are as a community and learn as much about the property and its owners' (HISD's) intentions.

If I was (still) a Timbergrove resident, I would be just like everyone else everywhere else. I would want the value of the surrounding area to remain as low as possible to keep my taxes low, but want the values to soar astronomically just before I sold the property.

[HeightsGuy]

So, are you guys arguing against this the park because you don't like the original poster? Or is it because you are against green spaces in Houston that aren't in your area? Or are you against parks in general and favor development over green space any time the issue comes up? Just want to know the motivation behind the aversion to the idea of a park in this location.

Seems to me we should try to hold on to every green space we can in Houston regardless of the area of town it is located in. Not every park is going to be a jewel, and not every park is going to be in your neighborhood where you can use it every day, but once it's gone we'll never get it back.

[TheNiche]

Perhaps someone "in the business" would give us a ballpark figure on what 20 acres of prime real estate in a desirable area like Timbergrove is worth. $1 million? $10 million? More?

Does anyone seriously think Timbergrove residents would pay that?

Probably about $3.5 to $4.0 million, if I had to guess.

I currently live in Rice Military and anyone who is familiar with the "townhome disease" in our neighborhood would not want to wish this on anyone. This 21 acre is in a deed-restricted neighborhood and this parcel would not be subject to any restrictions and therefore anything could be constructed. It currently has over 99 species of birds, 1800 trees and the tallest cluster of pine trees in Houston.

The recent study on air pollution identified downtown and the ship channels areas as having the highest levels of particulate matter. The proximity of this forest to downtown does help filter some of this. Greenspace inside the loop is finite and once it is gone, that's it.

People will continue to move to Houston but who wants to move inside the loop if you can't enjoy the outdoors because the air quality is so poor? People will just continue to choose the suburbs over downtown.

The forest is not really all that close to downtown, and certainly not the ship channel. If you wanted the City or some other governmental/nonprofit entity to make an investment in parks based upon environmental critera, the east side would definitely have a greater impact. For that matter, there are many large forested tracts in blighted areas that would be much less expensive to acquire. They could probably acquire two or three times as much acreage for the same price.

Frankly, though, I'm not all that concerned about air pollution. My very first post on HAIF was a legnthy rant about the inadequacies of last year's environmental study and the way that it was reported. Incidentally, somebody asked me at the time whether my opinion would change if I lived closer to the refineries on the east side...if a seller had accepted my offer, I'd be living in Morgan's Point, exposed to all the pollutants from the Tenneco refinery, Barbours' Cut, and every single ship that passes through the Houston Ship Channel every single day...instead I bought in the East End. So yes, I'll gladly put my money (and bodily health) where my mouth is.

[Pumapayam]

So, are you guys arguing against this the park because you don't like the original poster? Or is it because you are against green spaces in Houston that aren't in your area? Or are you against parks in general and favor development over green space any time the issue comes up? Just want to know the motivation behind the aversion to the idea of a park in this location.

I think every neighborhood should have a dedicate park place. It is just part of what makes a good community.

It is unfortunate that is lies so close to Memorial Park, but I think that I-10 is reason enough to overlook that.

[TheNiche]

I think every neighborhood should have a dedicate park place. It is just part of what makes a good community.

Reducing the supply of developable land by governmental means has the impact of driving land prices higher, resulting in a less affordable stock of housing.

...unintended consequences...

[HeightsGuy]

Reducing the supply of developable land by governmental means has the impact of driving land prices higher, resulting in a less affordable stock of housing.

...unintended consequences...

Um, 21 undeveloped acres inside the loop won't generate the slightest blip on the radar in regards to city-wide real estate prices.

And, 21 acres of contiguous undeveloped land inside the loop is worth a tad bit more than 3.5 million, more like 10-20 million on the open market. Here's the closest largest piece of land, outside the loop in Oak Forest, $700,000 an acre:

Land on 34th

Edit, sorry, got the number wrong, the above listing is actually 5.4 acres total. Still, I remember a piece of property where 15th deadends into Beall that was about 5 acres that went for 1.2 million. The larger the contiguous tract the more lucrative the price per.

[TJones]

, but once it's gone we'll never get it back.

Why does this line keep coming up, that statement is untrue. Look at Brownwood in Baytown. It was a HUGE subdivision, and pretty affluent one also. It has been turned into a nature preserve. No standing buildings, just greenspace. So quit saying "once it's gone, blah blah blah !" That "greenspace" is not being used for anything, and like Niche says, causing prices of existing housing to skyrocket, that's great if you already live there, but if you are trying to find something in the area, well what's the alternative ? Those websites are all by the same group and they are ALL propaganda where the 11th st. park is concerned. I am not trying to knock all the good that group has done thus far. I think it might be a real eyeopener to go take a look at some of these benevolent parks they have acquired. Culligan Park on Hwy.6, overflowing trashcans full of empty beer boxes, a great place for city of Sugarland employees to doze off, while they are on the clock. Probably a nice hangout for the middleage men cruisin' other men "lookin' for a goodtime." The place is a gutter that leads to a dump.

[kris3179]

HISD is asking $9,000,000 from the City of Houston.

HISD purchased the land in the 1950s for $65k. They have a real estate option with the City of Houston for $9 million, but the city is only willing provide $4,000,000. The rest of the money must be raised by the community by 12/31/06 (option expiration date) or the property goes to the highest bidder.

Timbergrove, Lazybrook, Old Timbergrove, Shady Acres,and Heights neighboorhood associations are very much involved in the fund-raising efforts. The residents just discovered that this land would be sold 2 months ago. Prior to that everyone believed that the City of Houston permantly secured the land based on what the civic clubs were told.

The land currently appraises for $12,000,000, but HISD is giving the city a "deal." I personally do not agree with HISD charging the tax-payers $9 million for land that was bought with tax money to begin with.

The Timbergrove civic club found out by accident while someone was attending an HISD board meeting.

[Heights2Bastrop]

To be honest, I was a bit put off by the alarmist nature of the original post

[HeightsGuy]

Why does this line keep coming up, that statement is untrue. Look at Brownwood in Baytown. It was a HUGE subdivision, and pretty affluent one also. It has been turned into a nature preserve. No standing buildings, just greenspace. So quit saying "once it's gone, blah blah blah !" That "greenspace" is not being used for anything, and like Niche says, causing prices of existing housing to skyrocket, that's great if you already live there, but if you are trying to find something in the area, well what's the alternative ? Those websites are all by the same group and they are ALL propaganda where the 11th st. park is concerned. I am not trying to knock all the good that group has done thus far. I think it might be a real eyeopener to go take a look at some of these benevolent parks they have acquired. Culligan Park on Hwy.6, overflowing trashcans full of empty beer boxes, a great place for city of Sugarland employees to doze off, while they are on the clock. Probably a nice hangout for the middleage men cruisin' other men "lookin' for a goodtime." The place is a gutter that leads to a dump.

Nice try TJones, want to give an example of a developed area that became a park that wasn't sinking into the ground?

Furthermore, do you think the developer of 21 contiguous acres inside the loop is going to squander the opportunity if they had their hands on it? Picture this, 200 half-million dollar homes in an exclusive gated neighborhood. What do you think that will do to the land values in Timbergrove? So stop saying a park will make land values in the area skyrocket.

[TJones]

Nice try TJones, want to give an example of an a developed area that became a park that wasn't sinking into the ground?

Oh Contrare'. Brownwood isn't sinking anywhere, and it wasn't before Alicia hit either. When is the last time you were out there. I can still walk down to where my Grandparents old house used to be. You can clearly make out where the old homesteads were Heights. What else you got ? I don't think it would be possible to fit 200 or so $500k homes on a 1/10 patch of an acre, that would be worth a damn in that spot, wrong part of town first of all, and limited space DOES cause property values to skyrocket. i.e New York, California, Florida. I am not talking Condos or townhomes either, I am talking about Homes that coincide with the adjacent neighborhood.

I am in a serious bad mood right now, not because of any of you guys. Work today is really cheesing me off.

[HeightsGuy]

Oh Contrare'. Brownwood isn't sinking anywhere, and it wasn't before Alicia hit either. When is the last time you were out there. I can still walk down to where my Grandparents old house used to be. You can clearly make out where the old homesteads were Heights. What else you got ?

I am in a serious bad mood right now, not because of any of you guys. Work today is really cheesing me off.

Fair enough, but we are in agreement that Brownwood was bought out by the govt due to subsidence and flooding, right? Which brings up another point, the 11th street park site is in the WO Bayou 100 yr plain. Should that have anything to do with whether it should be allowed to be developed?

[Heights2Bastrop]

I would think that, because of its location, Brownwood would be very susceptible to storm surge should a hurricane hit on or near Galveston Bay.

[sevfiv]

Oh Contrare'. Brownwood isn't sinking anywhere, and it wasn't before Alicia hit either. When is the last time you were out there. I can still walk down to where my Grandparents old house used to be. You can clearly make out where the old homesteads were Heights. What else you got ? I don't think it would be possible to fit 200 or so $500k homes on a 1/10 patch of an acre, that would be worth a damn in that spot, wrong part of town first of all, and limited space DOES cause property values to skyrocket. i.e New York, California, Florida. I am not talking Condos or townhomes either, I am talking about Homes that coincide with the adjacent neighborhood.

I am in a serious bad mood right now, not because of any of you guys. Work today is really cheesing me off.

hey now - don't bring brownwood into this

i have the archaeological data on it somewhere, and i am pretty sure the edges are slowly being eaten by burnett bay

[TJones]

Fair enough, but we are in agreement that Brownwood was bought out by the govt due to subsidence and flooding, right? Which brings up another point, the 11th street park site is in the WO Bayou 100 yr plain. Should that have anything to do with whether it should be allowed to be developed?

After everything happened, it was more like a 3 strikes and you are out thing. That place had flooded no less than 3 times over the last century. Yes, I agree the Govt. bought out everyone, and YES, there was proof of subsidence, but the erosion was at a rate so slow, it would take about 1000 years to approach anyone's homes. I can't remember if FEMA , or the State bought it out though. I didn;t get the check, I was only 13 or 14 when that happened, way too many beers ago. The difference is, people actually use that tract of land, and it is way more than 20 acres also. You gotta pay to even get in the joint. Do you think the residents of Timbergrove would accept a pay as you use plan ? That would definately scare off the drug users and homeless.

[TheNiche]

Um, 21 undeveloped acres inside the loop won't generate the slightest blip on the radar in regards to city-wide real estate prices.

And, 21 acres of contiguous undeveloped land inside the loop is worth a tad bit more than 3.5 million, more like 10-20 million on the open market. Here's the closest largest piece of land, outside the loop in Oak Forest, $700,000 an acre:

Land on 34th

Edit, sorry, got the number wrong, the above listing is actually 5.4 acres total. Still, I remember a piece of property where 15th deadends into Beall that was about 5 acres that went for 1.2 million. The larger the contiguous tract the more lucrative the price per.

Contrary to your intuitive conclusions, I've found the opposite to be true. The larger the tract, the lower the price per square foot. And you really shouldn't compare a tract on 34th Street to this one. 34th Street has a much higher traffic count, and thus, commercial use potentials.

You're right that there won't be much in the way of a 'blip'. Blips are localized. The effect of this project would be entirely diffused and widespread. Empirical data would be hard to come by, but just because we cannot observe it does not mean that it isn't there. The theory is sound.

Furthermore, do you think the developer of 21 contiguous acres inside the loop is going to squander the opportunity if they had their hands on it? Picture this, 200 half-million dollar homes in an exclusive gated neighborhood. What do you think that will do to the land values in Timbergrove? So stop saying a park will make land values in the area skyrocket.

200 half-million-dollar homes in a gated community won't do nearly anything to surrounding land values, except along predominantly commercial thoroughfares. The effect will only be felt in the market for homes in that same price range.

Which brings up another point, the 11th street park site is in the WO Bayou 100 yr plain. Should that have anything to do with whether it should be allowed to be developed?

Residential development is presently not allowed within the 100-year floodplain. Homes will have to either be elevated so that the first floor is above the 100-year elevation, or there will have to be some serious site mitigation. Expensive stuff. It may be that HISD has trouble finding buyers at the asking price that they've set, in which case, we're arguing a moot point.