Houston is invisible?

[KinkaidAlum]

Niche-

Are you kidding me? Are you really trying to imply that if we have stronger regulatory policies for developers or we initiate zoning in the city, the developers will abandon us and the poor will be negatively affected?

Seems like our lack of such things hasn't stopped massive growth in League City, Pearland, SugarLand, Richmond, Tomball, Jersey Village, etc...

Hell, they're now building in Rosenburg, Fulshear, and Alvin for Christ's sake.

Anyone with a few bucks in hand can play the developer game in this city. That's why we have strip malls out the wazzoo, fake stucco townhome communities, and a general distaste for anything older than 3 months.

[TheNiche]

Niche-

Are you kidding me? No. Are you really trying to imply that if we have stronger regulatory policies for developers or we initiate zoning in the city, the developers will abandon us and the poor will be negatively affected? Precisely. Unless of course we spend lots and lots of money providing subsidies to incentivize development and such.

Seems like our lack of such things hasn't stopped massive growth in League City, Pearland, SugarLand, Richmond, Tomball, Jersey Village, etc... Yeah, well the City itself is substantially built out in terms of large tracts of vacant land. Where else was the suburban sprawl going to go? The incorporated areas of many of these cities are actually pretty good examples of how civic planning can be abused in ways that would hurt the poor if applied to the central city. In League City, for instance, there are quite a few fees in place as well as regulations making developers set aside certain amounts of land for parks...but doing so makes it so that the margins are not sufficient to build lower-class housing in League City. The lower-class stuff then heads to Texas City, La Marque, or unincorporated Galveston County, further away from employment centers.

Hell, they're now building in Rosenburg, Fulshear, and Alvin for Christ's sake. Ok. Well if you don't like it, then you'd best not make development in Houston a hassle. Developers don't build things out of the goodness of their heart, you know. They'll go to the most convenient growth-friendly places.

Anyone with a few bucks in hand can play the developer game in this city. That's why we have strip malls out the wazzoo, fake stucco townhome communities, and a general distaste for anything older than 3 months.Yeah. And if you regulate, you won't get any of the benefits that come along with such inexpensive development. It'll all be of higher quality, but you can be assured that the pace of development will be slower...and I know just how patient you are.

[TheNiche]

So lets not have any regulations so we can build more of the crap you seem so enamored with? What a crock.

This is basic stuff. If you make it so that something is more expensive to build, then the builder will pass on the cost to the consumer. The more expensive a housing unit, the fewer consumers can afford it. The fewer consumers that can afford it, the fewer units are built.

By the way, new "crap" is the first phase of neighborhood stabilization. Higher quality units are typically only developed once the neighborhood's risk profile has been reduced as a result of successful sales of "crap". If you prevent the "crap" from hitting the ground, it is more difficult to prove up the good stuff to a lender that is dealing with an unproven market.

Can I guarantee these statements? Of course not...there will always be exceptions on the margins...nothing is 100%. But these are very uncomplicated trends that will play out if you mess with developers' incentives.

[TheNiche]

I didn't think you could.

Nope. But the reasoning remains valid.

[KinkaidAlum]

What is wrong with slower growth?

Seems like slowing down a little or making a few regulations to ensure a higher quality of life would be a good thing. I'd be happier with fewer strip malls and far flung gated enclaves that are making our open spaces disappear.

Did Houston learn anything from the oil bust? The only players who seem to have learned were the speculative office developers. The apartment builders and lower end single family home builders are doing today what they did 25 years ago...building the slums of tomorrow today.

Additionally, while we rejoice in lower home pricing and massive developments, there is a counter effect. Houston leads the nation in home foreclosures because in order to fill what they build, developers are starting their own mortgage lending businesses and approving anyone and everyone. It's quite shady and while the lower classes might be happy in their homes, they won't be when their credit is ruined and they are out on the streets!

[TJones]

What is wrong with slower growth?

Seems like slowing down a little or making a few regulations to ensure a higher quality of life would be a good thing. I'd be happier with fewer strip malls and far flung gated enclaves that are making our open spaces disappear.

Did Houston learn anything from the oil bust? The only players who seem to have learned were the speculative office developers. The apartment builders and lower end single family home builders are doing today what they did 25 years ago...building the slums of tomorrow today.

Additionally, while we rejoice in lower home pricing and massive developments, there is a counter effect. Houston leads the nation in home foreclosures because in order to fill what they build, developers are starting their own mortgage lending businesses and approving anyone and everyone. It's quite shady and while the lower classes might be happy in their homes, they won't be when their credit is ruined and they are out on the streets!

OMG ! I had to read this post above about 6 times, because I could not beleive that I was agreeing with absolutely everything Kinkaid was saying. This website is messing with my brain, and changing me, or maybe it is you good folks who are changing to fit my skewed sense of sensibilty ? Hmmmm......I think I need a Govt. grant to do a study on the effects that HAIF has on it's members, about $4mil should cover it !

[TheNiche]

What is wrong with slower growth?

Seems like slowing down a little or making a few regulations to ensure a higher quality of life would be a good thing. I'd be happier with fewer strip malls and far flung gated enclaves that are making our open spaces disappear.

Here's the problem: you haven't differentiated between the City and the Region. If the CITY of Houston enacts regulations that make life more difficult for developers, its not going to stop a whole lot of growth within the region...just dislocate it. INTO THE BURBS, where regulations can't be enforced and land is cheaper. Your policies are self-defeating, and that's incredibly frustrating to me. I mean, if there's one thing that annoys me more than misallocating economic resources for an inadequate purpose, its doing so in a way that completely backfires!

Did Houston learn anything from the oil bust? The only players who seem to have learned were the speculative office developers. The apartment builders and lower end single family home builders are doing today what they did 25 years ago...building the slums of tomorrow today.

Additionally, while we rejoice in lower home pricing and massive developments, there is a counter effect. Houston leads the nation in home foreclosures because in order to fill what they build, developers are starting their own mortgage lending businesses and approving anyone and everyone. It's quite shady and while the lower classes might be happy in their homes, they won't be when their credit is ruined and they are out on the streets!

I'm not sure that we lead the nation in foreclosures, but incidentally, I glanced through the most recent Databook Houston from the IRF today...our year-over-year foreclosure rate has been going DOWN since January despite rising interest rates. Is it so difficult for you to understand that lenders won't make loans to people that they believe will default in the future? Even if there was a total bust, all this empty new construction would just drive down housing prices even more. Historically, it was the see-through years that were responsible for diversifying our economy to the point that we're at now. If you have the patience to ride the roller coaster, Houston will win out one way or the other.

You're right about one thing. We build the slums of tomorrow today, just as we did yesterday and the day before that. It is a never-ending cycle to which every city is subject. Complaint is futile...unless of course you want to force society to pay for really super-duper nice housing for poor people. But even then, it is not so much the quality of homes that makes a slum as it is the quality of the people that inhabit the homes (and let those homes go to crap). No amount of subsidy will change the slum mentality that will always be out there...in fact, you may even encourage it (i.e. New Orleans).

Bottom line: Don't shoot yourself in the foot.

EDIT: Oh, and btw...why don't you tell the tens of thousands of lower-income families that were barely able to afford their home that their lenders made a mistake? Even if a fair number of them default at some point down the line, there will be many more that are able to retire with an asset to their name. They'll live better lives because of it.

[TheNiche]

There seem to be 2 types in Houston. People like the niche who are anti-government to the extreme; who think the "market" will correct and fix everything in some fantasy universe. [Remember trickle-down economics? Did you get "trickled" on?]

They really don't care about poor people's bad credit or foreclosures or anything they perceive as in their way. Expect more of the same until sounder, more thoughtful citizens prevail.

The situation is far more complicated than that. There are all kinds of people with all sorts of hybrid philosophies. Even I, taking a position that appears extreme relative to the thoughts of so many others, cannot advocate pure markets. Don't oversimplify...in doing so, you insult each of us.

The "trickle-down" school of thought is well-described by their phrase of choice. A "trickle" is a vast series of small drops that are barely noticeable by themselves, but that add up in aggregate. Unfortunately, it is difficult for economists to calculate the impact because, unlike a utility company with a meter that will noticeably register the influence of a leaky faucet, the economy is far more complicated, very volatile, and constantly changing. Just because economists lack the ability to reliably measure an impact doesn't mean that its not there. The theory was sound...if you don't agree, how about making a valid argument against it...you know, one with BOTH premise and conclusion.

I recall that you tried to use Ayn Rand's Fountainhead against me many months ago. I strongly suggest that you reread it. "Thoughtful citizens" often do the wrong things for ambiguous reasons.

[TheNiche]

Here's the problem: you haven't differentiated between the City and the Region.

Of course he didn't differentiate...the topic is about Houston. Pay attention.

Those of us who actually LIVE in Houston still have a modicum of control over our elected officials. I can't help it if the "region" chooses to build crap. I can try to help it when crap is being foisted on my city.

That's why I'm for some regulation and against some fantasy "The market will solve the problem" solution. That has yet to work and I see no signs that it ever will. It's just so much BS.

Ok...now you've got me completely confused. I thought that your motives were altruistic...and now you seem to be indicating through your professed advocacy of certain regulations that you couldn't care less about anything other than the environment in which you personally live. Damn the sprawl problem, damn the wetlands, damn the increased flooding concerns, and damn everyone outside of your little realm?

If you don't consider or care about the impact that regulating the City would upon the unincorporated burbs, then why do you not at least care about the impact that bigger burbs will have upon the City? Policy-induced externalities will come back to bite you in the ass, you know.

If you have the slightest sense of humility, you will reconsider your position...or at least clarify.

Prove what? It's not mine to prove.

You knew the theory (I'd hope). You brought it up. You slung the mud. If you want to use it in your argument, you'd better be prepared to defend your statement.

I need not regurgitate the theories of supply-side economics. I've already made clear that the empirical evidence can never be conclusive when applied to the theory. So if you've got a countervailing theory, I'm all ears. Otherwise, stop making a fool of yourself.

EDIT: Oh, and if you don't like my "big words", then go get a dictionary. I cannot be held liable for your ignorance of the English language.

[TJones]

nmain, I'm sure you've heard of "VOO DOO economics", and "The Laffer Curve". Tax cuts work, whether you want to believe it or not.

http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=ZTk5Y...TJhZjlmNDc5YmQ=

here is an excellent article for you to read.

I do believe Houston is fine how it is, our economy in this city revolves around energy, not how many new neighborhoods we can build. This city suffers when there is an oil bust not a housing bust or a automotive plant closes. I like the slow pace here, although many on this forum pray that this would be New York, people move here to get away from that junk. Houston will never EVER be NY or Chicago or L.A., THANK GOD ! Think about it, everytime you go on a trip to another major city, how good does it feel when you get back home to Houston ?

[TJones]

BTW, Lowery's article completely ignores the cost of prosecuting 2 wars at once while giving away huge tax-breaks. Usually in a time of war some sacrifice is needed to keep the ship running. Just something to think about as we borrow and spend our way into oblivion.

WRONG ! The deficit numbers include the war effort. Again with the blinders. You are killing me.

Wait, I don't want to hijack this thread, Houston is home, I don't care if it is "invisible" who wants a bunch of people to come in here and try to make Houston something it ain't ? Let us keep enjoying the medium-cost of living here, and the cheap weekends in Galveston, and let us remain under the radar to the rest of the world.

[RedScare]

WRONG ! The deficit numbers include the war effort. Again with the blinders. You are killing me.

Wow. Back when I used to be a Republican, we never bragged about a $300 Billion DEFICIT. But, I suppose when the year before was $423 Billion, and the one next year is proposed to go back up to $350 Billion, you brag where you can.

BTW, the interest on the National Debt is $352 Billion...did I mention that interest rates are going up?

[TJones]

Redscare AKA.....The little black cloud.

The deficit is $100 and what billion less than projected by the same forecasters for your $350 billion number for next year, so using THEIR math, we'll probably be a wash next year.

[TJones]

Hey TJ! If the deficit is only a hundred bucks I'm more than willing to pay it off for all you broke Republicans.

If you are gonna quote me, at least don't be like the typical liberal rag, quote me correctly and quote the whole statement so that it is not taken out of context.

[TheNiche]

Nmain, do you know what a premise to an argument is? Please go get a dictionary. If you want to argue with me, you're going to have to do it in a comprehensible way. Stating your opinion and slinging a bit of mud is insufficient to make a point.

By the way, folks, there is an article in the Chronicle today that seems to address the argument at hand. Read all the way to the bottom. Mayor White is on my side; councilmember Brown is on Kinkaid's.

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