townhome maintenance costs

[woolie]

College is finally over; I'm on a graduate stipend and my girl is finishing up her masters and gearing up to start an internship and her professional life. Things are looking up, and we finally have concrete, certain ideas of exactly what our combined income will be in the next 5- or so years, and additionally, how much value our investments have accrued and what our savings will be. (Well, actually I've already been in grad school for a year now)

Of course, I have been addicted to HAR-porn for years now, but the thought of actually being able to purchase a property in the next year or so makes the excitement even more tangible.

So, what I want to know is, what are the maintenance costs for "Perry Style" 3-story condo blocks in midtown. Either in the Baldwin/Chenevert/McIlhenny area or over in "Post Oak Midtown" (what i unimaginatively refer to as 'townhouseland.')

Besides what the mortgage calculator spits out and the property tax, what non-utility costs will hit me each month?

---

Here's the chatty part of the post, you can skip it if you want

Basically, my dream was to live in 5000 Montrose. One of their ~$200k units would have been very much within reach, except when I began to factor in the costs of $0.55/sf/mo for a 1300sf unit. It really puts a strain on the option; it becomes nearly as much as the mortgage itself. It's been my dream to live in a high rise, but it may not happen because of these fees.

My constraints on housing?

Priority number 1 is location: ideally I would like to take the train to the TMC. This is what put 5kM at the top of my list. I absolutely do not want to own a 2nd automobile and pay the associated costs as well as $200/mo parking. I hate cars. I hate driving. I'd consider a moped and 3 miles maximum from the TMC as a worst case scenario. My girl will work in the Galleria area; quick access to 59 is a major plus. But she doesn't mind driving nearly as much as I do, and her work will pay for her parking (unlike mine....) so it's not as critical.

Priority number 2 is a fabulous kitchen. This is very important to my girl. The aesthetics can be a little off (e.g. color) but it must be absolutely 100% functional without additional work. It must have solid surface countertops and a large amount of counter space. Ideally it exists as a separate space, not an afterthought in a corner of the living room. This constraint has actually caused us to consider larger, more expensive properties even do we do not need or want >1500sf of space (but very few smaller, less expensive units have quality kitchens.)

Priority number 3 is easy access to Montrose. It goes hand in hand with #2: eating is a very important part of both of our lives. All our favorite restaurants are in Montrose.

We figure $250k mortgage would be within reach if there was no condo like maintenance fee. On $80k income (and definitely expected to increase within a few years), 60k downpayment, no kids or desire to have children, no car note (only $100/mo insurance), no large/recurring expenses (except $100/mo for telecommunications), currently living with parents (no rent), zero debt (<$1000), and extremely frugal habits (i'm a scientist, she's an accountant -- we're both extreme penny pinchers.)

Bungalows are basically ruled out because I don't have the time/energy to maintain a 100 year old house. Fixing old house problems are the reason we moved OUT of my apartment. I grew up in a 100 year old house and am not itching to repeat the experience.

An example of a unit fulfilling all criteria is

http://search.har.com/engine/indexdetail.c...=0&backButton=Y

Edited June 10, 2006 by Ian Rees

[ricco67]

"HAR-Porn?"

[HoustonMidtown]

I haven't owned a Perry townhome - so I can't say anything to the costs for upkeep for one of those - others can speak to that - although I have heard they aren't that well built - again, I havent owned a Perry, so I dont know how true this is.

I have owned 2 townhomes - both in Montrose - here's my experience and/or advice.....look for a fee-simple townhome - that means no maintenance fee.

If you buy a stucco townhome - make sure to have the stucco inspected. My friends bought a 2 yr old townhome that had to have all the stucco removed and replaced - I think due to moisture behind the stucco - a very expensive proposition

Some towhomes will have a yard, some won't, keep this in mind because if you have a yard, you will have to buy lawn equipment (mower, edger, etc) or pay someone to care for it (not that much money usually because the yards with townhomes are usually tiny).

When you buy, you can usually buy a home warranty for ~$400 or so that will cover everything for 4-5 years (I dont remember the specifics as it was about 8 yrs ago when I did this). For a small deductible (mine was $50) they will repair/replace something when it breaks (including kitchen appliances, AC, etc..) depending on what coverage you buy.

If you buy a brand new townhome - it will have a builders warranty for some period of time - so no maintenace costs during this period. Most builders seem have a 1 yr warranty, but my last builder had a 2 yr - Im talking about the "bumper-to-bumper" warranty - other portions of the townhome will have longer warranties..

Definately factor in property taxes - they are crazy high....there are quite a few threads on here regarding appraisals and such....my taxes were almost $10K yr on a $400K townhome....but they vary widely depending on your appraisal value

You've already found the HAR website - so thats a good place for searching...

Here's another site to search (narrow search to townhomes or high-rises): http://www.txrealestatecafe.com/

I hope this helps....congrats on finishing school !!

[dalparadise]

With about $60K down, a $250K home will run roughly $2000/month on a 30 year fixed loan. This takes in interest, property taxes, insurance and minimal maintenance or HOA fees.

If you buy new, count on thousands for seemingly silly things like window coverings. Plus, you'll want to furnish it. It'll be really weird to live in a 1/4 million dollar home and furnish it like a dorm room. you can do it over time, of course, but be aware that you may actually hurt your resale value if the home isn't decorated properly when it comes time to sell. It's stupid, but true.

Utilities are also high in Houston. Be prepared for hundreds per month. That's why some of the "Houston's got the lowest costs of living in the world" hype is just that -- hype. The property taxes and increased need for electricity usage offset some of the savings over other cities.

Even so, the low prices are a great avenue to ownership for a first-time buyer. Just be prepared for much more than the mortgage calculators tell you it will cost.

[jm1fd]

When you buy, you can usually buy a home warranty for ~$400 or so that will cover everything for 4-5 years (I dont remember the specifics as it was about 8 yrs ago when I did this). For a small deductible (mine was $50) they will repair/replace something when it breaks (including kitchen appliances, AC, etc..) depending on what coverage you buy.

The warranty the sellers bought when I purchased my house was 1 year for $300. They may offer more coverage for less money for townhouses.

[woolie]

If you buy new, count on thousands for seemingly silly things like window coverings. Plus, you'll want to furnish it. It'll be really weird to live in a 1/4 million dollar home and furnish it like a dorm room. you can do it over time, of course, but be aware that you may actually hurt your resale value if the home isn't decorated properly when it comes time to sell. It's stupid, but true.

Utilities are also high in Houston. Be prepared for hundreds per month. That's why some of the "Houston's got the lowest costs of living in the world" hype is just that -- hype. The property taxes and increased need for electricity usage offset some of the savings over other cities.

That's what I figured; it's still in the safe range for ~6000-6500 after-taxes income per month with no dependents and only 1 automobile. Conservative projections put our income at 100k in 5 years (my income contribution, albeit the smaller of the two, will double once I finish my PhD; this even assumes she gets no raises in that time frame, which itself may be unlikely given the stories I've heard), and easily 150k in 10 (almost certain unless we both become drug addicits and lose our jobs ). So, I think even if payments were ~30%+ of our income in the first 5 years of the mortgage, the situation would rapidly resolve itself; extra income would go largely to extra principle payments and 401k/roth savings. The goal would be to turn the 30 year mortgage into a 15 year mortgage, into one paid off in 10 through extra payments. We're not counting on excellent interest rates on the first financing round -- not because of bad credit, but rather because we're too young to have established much of a score with our so-far good credit. I'm 23 and she's 22; we'd expect to be purchasing in late 2007/early 2008.

I'm pretty familiar with utility costs for houses in Houston; budget includes them. Also, we we already have at least 2 or 3 rooms worth of good quality furniture that we want to re-use. Interior design won't be an issue either; my girl was an architecture major before she switched to accounting, and has a pretty keen eye for design and a good sense about it.

We're both nerdy types, so like to plan these things down to the penny and make realistic projections of debits and credits for several years in advance. It's something of a fun little hobby. I guess the most fortunate aspect is that we managed to squeeze our parents for tuition long enough to graduate without any real debt.

Appreciation of the property would be nice, but it's something I don't really expect to happen, given the current climate in midtown, where new builders easily undercut the resale prices of existing properties. Our models take this into account. Ideally, we'd trade up to a nicer (not necessarily larger) space once the original mortgage is paid off early (<15 years.) I think careful management of money and credit will probably give one just as much power as expecting the Home Appreciation Fairy to sprinkle dollar dust on your property.

Edited June 10, 2006 by Ian Rees

[woolie]

"HAR-Porn?"

har.com!!!

[cwrm4]

I bought a 3-story Perry in the "heart" of Montrose in 2001 for 215k and sold it 40 months later in 2004 for 227.5k (essentially breaking even once you account for the realtor gouging).

For about half the time I owned it, while I was out of the country, I rented a room for $550/month to a friend in need.

I put 10% down on it, with a 30 yr loan, initially at 6 5/8 and then refinanced to 5 1/2 a year later.

After I sold it I calculated my total cost of ownership, including the rent I collected, income tax breaks, property taxes, all repairs, insurance, hardwood stairs I put in (myself), cost of capital on the downpayment, etc...and it came out to about $1350 a month. Less the rent I collected, it's closer to $1600/month. There were no maintenance fees on my unit. Quite honestly, in the long run, I'm so sure that is a good thing, as eventually "group" maintenance will be needed, and getting everyone to foot the bill is not always easy.

I thought that in buying a nearly new (it was 1.5 yrs old) place I would avoid the maintenance costs...I was wrong.

I spent over $1500 on problems, mainly the A/C (which I have documented elsewhere in the forum before) plus a staggering $1800 on termites (yes, termites). Most other problems - stove, dishwasher, paint issues, etc I fixed myself, so the costs would have been obviously higher if I had to pay someone to do it.

I think you are on the right track looking at "used" townhomes; they are much better deals IMHO. Personally I believe that the townhomes built around 2000 are much more solid/better equipped than the new units. In 2000 the builders were just trying to attract the yuppies into the townhomes and thus put more effort into the construction. Nowadays, they seem to be concerend more with volume selling, and the quality of the homes have suffered accordingly.

Edited June 10, 2006 by cwrm4

[Parrothead]

I have owned 2 townhomes - both in Montrose - here's my experience and/or advice.....look for a fee-simple townhome - that means no maintenance fee.

Actually, fee simple does not mean that there is no maintenance fee. It is a legal term meaning that the title holder owns the building and the land on which it sits (i.e. a townhome in a complex). It is up to the HOA as to whether you pay dues, and in my place (Georgetown) all fee simple homeowners pay maintenance fees every month just like us lowly condo owners

[uncertaintraveler]

We figure $250k mortgage would be within reach if there was no condo like maintenance fee. On $80k income (and definitely expected to increase within a few years), 60k downpayment, no kids or desire to have children, no car note (only $100/mo insurance), no large/recurring expenses (except $100/mo for telecommunications), currently living with parents (no rent), zero debt (<$1000), and extremely frugal habits (i'm a scientist, she's an accountant -- we're both extreme penny pinchers.)

That's what I figured; it's still in the safe range for ~6000-6500 after-taxes income per month with no dependents and only 1 automobile. Conservative projections put our income at 100k in 5 years (my income contribution, albeit the smaller of the two, will double once I finish my PhD; this even assumes she gets no raises in that time frame, which itself may be unlikely given the stories I've heard), and easily 150k in 10 (almost certain unless we both become drug addicits and lose our jobs ). So, I think even if payments were ~30%+ of our income in the first 5 years of the mortgage, the situation would rapidly resolve itself; extra income would go largely to extra principle payments and 401k/roth savings. The goal would be to turn the 30 year mortgage into a 15 year mortgage, into one paid off in 10 through extra payments. We're not counting on excellent interest rates on the first financing round -- not because of bad credit, but rather because we're too young to have established much of a score with our so-far good credit. I'm 23 and she's 22; we'd expect to be purchasing in late 2007/early 2008.

Ummm...what I am missing here? If your yearly income is $80K, which I assume is combined income, that equals $6,666.66 per month before taxes. So where are you getting the $6,000 to $6,500 after tax per month number?

Also...just a few words of advice, which you can take for whatever you believe they are worth.

First, before you even consider buying a house, you should be maxing out your 401(k) and your IRA. Maybe you already are, but if you aren't, do so first. The amount you will earn off well-invested 401(k) and IRA monies will far outstrip the profit you may make in the housing market over the long term.

Second, don't count on your income projections as coming true. You have no idea what the future holds. You may think you do, but you don't. You may find that in a few years time, you want to do something totally different with your life that may pay drastically less but is much more rewarding. It is far better to buy a house (assuming you really want one) and use your current income as a guideline. Better yet, take your current income and only use 75% of it as "available" for housing purchase (i.e, if you make $100K, tell everyone you only make $75 and use the $75K number as a guide for what you can afford). That way, if you income doesn't rise as expected, you aren't pinched, and if it falls for some reason, you aren't worried (too much) about making the mortgage payments. There is a funny thing about money and raises...the more you make, the easier it is to get used to the fat paychecks and become dependent upon them. So, um...good luck on taking a 30 year mortgage and making it a 10 year one. If I were a betting man, I'd say you won't be able to do it.

Third...be sure that you aren't overvaluing the benefits of buying a house, especially the home mortgage interest deduction. There was a thread on here a while back where Parrothead argued (unsuccessfully, some might say) that it always makes sense to buy a house. Well, I don't think it does (for reasons I don't have the time to go into right now), but before you put money into a house, make sure you run the numbers under every possible scenario you can think of, including the possibility of falling under the AMT regime, and unless you intend to stay in the same place for at least 5 years, don't even think about buying a house. There is a large contingent of America that believes home ownership is a good thing and that it always makes financial sense. I think that most of them are wrong.

[Trophy Property]

College is finally over; I'm on a graduate stipend and my girl is finishing up her masters and gearing up to start an internship and her professional life. Things are looking up, and we finally have concrete, certain ideas of exactly what our combined income will be in the next 5- or so years, and additionally, how much value our investments have accrued and what our savings will be. (Well, actually I've already been in grad school for a year now)

Of course, I have been addicted to HAR-porn for years now, but the thought of actually being able to purchase a property in the next year or so makes the excitement even more tangible.

So, what I want to know is, what are the maintenance costs for "Perry Style" 3-story condo blocks in midtown. Either in the Baldwin/Chenevert/McIlhenny area or over in "Post Oak Midtown" (what i unimaginatively refer to as 'townhouseland.')

Besides what the mortgage calculator spits out and the property tax, what non-utility costs will hit me each month?

http://search.har.com/engine/indexdetail.c...=0&backButton=Y

First of all congrats on finishing up. I commend you for wanting to purchase a townhouse. I was 30 before I got around to buying my first house.

At any rate. I owned a 3 story 3/3/2 Perry at Drew and Morgan. It was 2200 SF, had a fantastic master suite. The other two rooms / bathrooms were OK but small. The kitchen was a allright, It was too white for my taste, but I never made any changes in the 3 years I lived there. There were hardwoods throughout except for the bedrooms and third story. I ripped out the Bebar (sp) carpet and put down some nice Frize. It made a huge difference.

I bought the house in 2002 for $265k. The originaly owners had it for 3 years before me and had paid $245k for it, but also put plantation shutters and blinds throughout at a cost of $10k. This place was window city. I put down 5%, got a great interest rate - 4.875% on 80% and took a second note out for the remaining 15% at 7.75% interest rate. All in my monthly payments for $2,100. I was lucky to have the ability of putting $500 extra a month towards the principal. When I sold it late last year we got $280 for it. Because I of the extra principal I had been paying down and the 5% I already had in equity I was able to walk away with nearly $30k after paying closing costs. The extra principal is key if you can afford it and plan on moving within 3-5 years.

One thing is that you are pretty young. Things change, priorities change, jobs changes. Be prepared that there may come a time when you will need to sell or move or whatever. It sounds like you are putting quite a bit of equity into the house so that should not be much of a problem for you. I had a few friends who bought bigger houses than they could really manage. A few years later they showed up at closing with a check for $10k to get out of the house. Not a fun feeling.

Please keep in mind some other costs that will suprise the hell out of you. ENERGY Cost. These townhouses were solidily built (many will argue this point with me). At lease mine was. I still paid $300 a month in energy costs from May-September. The cielings are high and there is much more space to cool. Of course we kept our A/C at 72. And many find this to be tooooo Low. Not us, we like it chilly.

To answer your first question. The maintenance fees were $800 a year (one time payment). This included exterior work (roofs etc.) and water. I never paid a water bill which was nice. We had a professional management company manage the HOA for us and it seemed to work out allright. For me I chalked it up as a cost of living and never really thought about it much.

Edited June 12, 2006 by Trophy Property

[lwood]

College is finally over; I'm on a graduate stipend and my girl is finishing up her masters and gearing up to start an internship and her professional life. Things are looking up, and we finally have concrete, certain ideas of exactly what our combined income will be in the next 5- or so years, and additionally, how much value our investments have accrued and what our savings will be. (Well, actually I've already been in grad school for a year now)

Of course, I have been addicted to HAR-porn for years now, but the thought of actually being able to purchase a property in the next year or so makes the excitement even more tangible.

So, what I want to know is, what are the maintenance costs for "Perry Style" 3-story condo blocks in midtown. Either in the Baldwin/Chenevert/McIlhenny area or over in "Post Oak Midtown" (what i unimaginatively refer to as 'townhouseland.')

Besides what the mortgage calculator spits out and the property tax, what non-utility costs will hit me each month?

---

Here's the chatty part of the post, you can skip it if you want

Basically, my dream was to live in 5000 Montrose. One of their ~$200k units would have been very much within reach, except when I began to factor in the costs of $0.55/sf/mo for a 1300sf unit. It really puts a strain on the option; it becomes nearly as much as the mortgage itself. It's been my dream to live in a high rise, but it may not happen because of these fees.

My constraints on housing?

Priority number 1 is location: ideally I would like to take the train to the TMC. This is what put 5kM at the top of my list. I absolutely do not want to own a 2nd automobile and pay the associated costs as well as $200/mo parking. I hate cars. I hate driving. I'd consider a moped and 3 miles maximum from the TMC as a worst case scenario. My girl will work in the Galleria area; quick access to 59 is a major plus. But she doesn't mind driving nearly as much as I do, and her work will pay for her parking (unlike mine....) so it's not as critical.

Priority number 2 is a fabulous kitchen. This is very important to my girl. The aesthetics can be a little off (e.g. color) but it must be absolutely 100% functional without additional work. It must have solid surface countertops and a large amount of counter space. Ideally it exists as a separate space, not an afterthought in a corner of the living room. This constraint has actually caused us to consider larger, more expensive properties even do we do not need or want >1500sf of space (but very few smaller, less expensive units have quality kitchens.)

Priority number 3 is easy access to Montrose. It goes hand in hand with #2: eating is a very important part of both of our lives. All our favorite restaurants are in Montrose.

We figure $250k mortgage would be within reach if there was no condo like maintenance fee. On $80k income (and definitely expected to increase within a few years), 60k downpayment, no kids or desire to have children, no car note (only $100/mo insurance), no large/recurring expenses (except $100/mo for telecommunications), currently living with parents (no rent), zero debt (<$1000), and extremely frugal habits (i'm a scientist, she's an accountant -- we're both extreme penny pinchers.)

Bungalows are basically ruled out because I don't have the time/energy to maintain a 100 year old house. Fixing old house problems are the reason we moved OUT of my apartment. I grew up in a 100 year old house and am not itching to repeat the experience.

An example of a unit fulfilling all criteria is

http://search.har.com/engine/indexdetail.c...=0&backButton=Y

Some people are tempted to buy into a project because there is no maintenance fee. I have seen townhome properties where the neighbor did no maintenance for years and was a major problem for the neighbors. Their property values fell because of it.

[Parrothead]

First of all congrats on finishing up. I commend you for wanting to purchase a townhouse. I was 30 before I got around to buying my first house.

At any rate. I owned a 3 story 3/3/2 Perry at Drew and Morgan. It was 2200 SF, had a fantastic master suite. The other two rooms / bathrooms were OK but small. The kitchen was a allright, It was too white for my taste, but I never made any changes in the 3 years I lived there. There were hardwoods throughout except for the bedrooms and third story. I ripped out the Bebar (sp) carpet and put down some nice Frize. It made a huge difference.

I bought the house in 2002 for $265k. The originaly owners had it for 3 years before me and had paid $245k for it, but also put plantation shutters and blinds throughout at a cost of $10k. This place was window city. I put down 5%, got a great interest rate - 4.875% on 80% and took a second note out for the remaining 15% at 7.75% interest rate. All in my monthly payments for $2,100. I was lucky to have the ability of putting $500 extra a month towards the principal. When I sold it late last year we got $280 for it. Because I of the extra principal I had been paying down and the 5% I already had in equity I was able to walk away with nearly $30k after paying closing costs. The extra principal is key if you can afford it and plan on moving within 3-5 years.

I'm confused Trophy...if you bought it for 265, and sold it for 280, it sounds like you only made a profit of $15K...plus how much did you pay for closing costs on both ends?

To the original poster...you are looking for a townhome inside the loop on a graduate stipend? I hope your girlfriend makes a lot of money!

Edited June 17, 2006 by Parrothead