Bags

[HeightsGuy]

What the 'Stros are doing to Bagwell is just plain wrong. He gave his heart to this team and now it's getting ripped out by a selfish owner who wishes desperately that Bagwell will roll over so he can cash in a 15 million dollar insurance policy. Worse yet is the publicity campaign painting Bagwell as the selfish bad guy and the saintly McLane talking like this is the toughest decision he's ever had to make.

Fact is Bags could have told McLane to take a hike in 2000 and demand money up front at the beginning of the contract and nobody would have been the wiser, but he agreed to back-load his contract so the team could spend money on players such as Richard Hidalgo and Brad Ausmus. Does anyone forget that in the previous season before signing the contract he hit 47 home runs? He could have gone back to Boston for more money and a big-time signing bonus, but chose to stay here. Had he forced McLane to pay him what he was due in 2001, the Astros probably wouldn't have re-signed Hidalgo or traded for Ausmus, and the 'Stros may not have bounced back that year and gone to the playoffs after tanking in 2000, but nobody would be complaining now that Bagwell is being selfish wanting to playout his contract on the field where he belongs. Does anyone believe that if Bagwell's salary was 6 million this year we'd be reading about the team trying to give the boot to one of Houston's greatest ever sports heros during the last year of his career?????????

I know it's easy to throw out the poor millionaire references, but money is money and business is business. Bagwell kept up his end of the deal, but McLane wants to renege on his. Does anyone here really believe McLane will take that 15 million and spend it on the team? Go ahead, ask yourself which free agent is still out there ready to be signed with the money McLane recoups. Trust me, if Bagwell is indeed forced to retire, McLane is going to pocket that money and go with the team he already has.

[RedScare]

Last time I checked, Bagwell is set to earn $17 million this year. $17 million bucks to a guy who can't throw the ball 90 feet. Are the Astros refusing to honor their contract? No. Is Bagwell losing a dime? No. Has Bagwell offered to accept less than full pay due to the fact that he is damaged goods? No. Has Bagwell offered to retire if he cannot play this season? No.

I am at a complete and utter loss to understand why a team owner is obligated to throw $15.6 million away just because the player wants him to. The insurance policy requires them to apply by Jan. 31. So be it.

Business IS business. Bagwell did not keep his end of the deal. He is being paid more than anyone on the team to play baseball. Not to sit on the bench.

He's getting his money. He needs to shut up and go home. The team needs hitters and he's just taking up valuable wood on the bench. Selfish. Yeah, let's talk about selfish.

[dalparadise]

Last time I checked, Bagwell is set to earn $17 million this year. $17 million bucks to a guy who can't throw the ball 90 feet. Are the Astros refusing to honor their contract? No. Is Bagwell losing a dime? No. Has Bagwell offered to accept less than full pay due to the fact that he is damaged goods? No. Has Bagwell offered to retire if he cannot play this season? No.

I am at a complete and utter loss to understand why a team owner is obligated to throw $15.6 million away just because the player wants him to. The insurance policy requires them to apply by Jan. 31. So be it.

Business IS business. Bagwell did not keep his end of the deal. He is being paid more than anyone on the team to play baseball. Not to sit on the bench.

He's getting his money. He needs to shut up and go home. The team needs hitters and he's just taking up valuable wood on the bench. Selfish. Yeah, let's talk about selfish.

That is the pure business viewpoint and probably the rational one. Bags is fighting a losing battle with retirement. Either way he won't lose a dime in this scenario. What he's saying is, he's got a contract to play and he believes he needs to honor that contract, rather than collecting the money for nothing. It's completely a pride issue. Plus, he's not asking to be placed on the roster. He's asking to go to Spring Training and compete for his position. Problem is, timing will screw up the insurance deal.

I agree with you. I think the guy is done. Unfortunately, you have to play defense in the National League. Still, he's an icon. He's an Astros' hero. The Hollywood script would have him hitting the big shot to win it all this October. Too bad this is Houston, not Hollywood.

I feel for the guy and wish this had been handled better. Baseball is different than other sports and you're just not supposed to give up on an icon like this. Now, the PR is going to be a real killer and the mood in the clubhouse will be affected. There's a chance Bagwell's replacement won't be ready for opening day either. Any way you slice it, it looks like hard times for Stros fans this summer.

Of course, if player salaries weren't so whacko, Baseball could still afford to be unlike other sports. Quite a quandry, hey Brian?

[DJ V Lawrence]

What the 'Stros are doing to Bagwell is just plain wrong. He gave his heart to this team and now it's getting ripped out by a selfish owner who wishes desperately that Bagwell will roll over so he can cash in a 15 million dollar insurance policy. Worse yet is the publicity campaign painting Bagwell as the selfish bad guy and the saintly McLane talking like this is the toughest decision he's ever had to make.

Fact is Bags could have told McLane to take a hike in 2000 and demand money up front at the beginning of the contract and nobody would have been the wiser, but he agreed to back-load his contract so the team could spend money on players such as Richard Hidalgo and Brad Ausmus. Does anyone forget that in the previous season before signing the contract he hit 47 home runs? He could have gone back to Boston for more money and a big-time signing bonus, but chose to stay here. Had he forced McLane to pay him what he was due in 2001, the Astros probably wouldn't have re-signed Hidalgo or traded for Ausmus, and the 'Stros may not have bounced back that year and gone to the playoffs after tanking in 2000, but nobody would be complaining now that Bagwell is being selfish wanting to playout his contract on the field where he belongs. Does anyone believe that if Bagwell's salary was 6 million this year we'd be reading about the team trying to give the boot to one of Houston's greatest ever sports heros during the last year of his career?????????

I know it's easy to throw out the poor millionaire references, but money is money and business is business. Bagwell kept up his end of the deal, but McLane wants to renege on his. Does anyone here really believe McLane will take that 15 million and spend it on the team? Go ahead, ask yourself which free agent is still out there ready to be signed with the money McLane recoups. Trust me, if Bagwell is indeed forced to retire, McLane is going to pocket that money and go with the team he already has.

I totally disagree with the last sentence. There is no question that McClain, Purpura, and Astros fans love Bagwell. I'm a huge fan myself. But what exactly did or could you expect the Astros to do? Would you rather spend 15 million to a man that you already know will not be at the peak of his career, or spend the money on a power-hitter, top pitcher, or both?

The Astros had two choices:

1. Give Bagwell 17.5 million for the contract he already signed, fit him somewhere on the roster, compensate him for what he did 5 years ago when he first signed it, and not expect too much from him this season because he'll probably still be trying to get back to old form through half the season (which is a tall task to ask ANYONE).

2. Take back 15 million, spend on people who could define the Astros' future, try to add to the team that made it to the World Series last year (remember how involved Bagwell was last year. Once again, not his fault.)

I feel for HeightsGuy because I REALLY want to see Bagwell play this season and keep his old contract, because lets face it, he's a legend. But do you really feel that giving 17.5 million to Bagwell this season will improve the team and give them a better shot at winning the World Series in 2006?

[ProHouston]

Look, Bags is a good guy, he was a good Astro for many years. However, he can't be next year and wasn't even good in the playoffs last year. We don't need him on the team, he's taking up Lance Berkmans spot. If we don't need him, why pay him the big $ for riding the pine? Just because he's a legend? That doesn't buy the Astros anything this year. If we want to be back in the Series we need as much money as possible to spend on players who can play. It's as simple as that. Yes, it's a business, not a popularity contest.

A similar situation forced Troy Aikman into retirement as well and he's still a Dallas icon...

[west20th]

Bags needs to be a team player one more time and retire. Nothing sadder than seeing a once great player play on past his prime. Like Willy Mays, I hear it was just sad to see him in him play his last couple of years.

[HeightsGuy]

OK, ProHouston, DJ, Dal, and Red Scare, please answer one simple question:

If Bagwell's salary was 6 million this year instead of 17, would you all be saying the same thing, that he doesn't even get a chance to see if he can come back from the surgury?

[ProHouston]

OK, ProHouston, DJ, Dal, and Red Scare, please answer one simple question:

If Bagwell's salary was 6 million this year instead of 17, would you all be saying the same thing, that he doesn't even get a chance to see if he can come back from the surgury?

If there was any money to be saved by having an injured player retire, then yes. However, there isn't always an insurance claim and it doesn't always involve a team legend which is where the controversy comes from. I just want to see the Astros in the Series again, I loved that feeling.

[ldogg]

HeightsGuy...

that is a nice hypothetical, but has nothing to do with the reality of the situation... business is business.... period... if his salary was only $6mill then they'd probably let him try and if it didn't work they'd buy him out... but we're not talking $6... we're talking $17... nearly 3 times as much so it really isn't relevant...

Bags has a lot of pride and he is allowing it to cloud his judgement... I'm sure he just wants to play, but sometimes that can't happen and he isn't able to see that right now... the Astros' hand was forced by the policy with the insurance company... there is nothing evil or unfair going on from Drayton and Purpura.. hell the insurance company might deny the claim anyway... they had to file though..

[HeightsGuy]

HeightsGuy...

that is a nice hypothetical, but has nothing to do with the reality of the situation... business is business.... period... if his salary was only $6mill then they'd probably let him try and if it didn't work they'd buy him out... but we're not talking $6... we're talking $17... nearly 3 times as much so it really isn't relevant...

Bags has a lot of pride and he is allowing it to cloud his judgement... I'm sure he just wants to play, but sometimes that can't happen and he isn't able to see that right now... the Astros' hand was forced by the policy with the insurance company... there is nothing evil or unfair going on from Drayton and Purpura.. hell the insurance company might deny the claim anyway... they had to file though..

Funny you guys keep bringing up business is business in your arguments. It is not a hypothetical that Bagwell signed a 6 year, 85 million dollar contract with the Astros in December 2000. It doesn't matter the payment schedule, he is owed what he is owed. I didn't see anyone complaining when we paid him 6.5 million in 2001 when he hit 39 homers and 130 RBI's saying he deserved more money that year.......

There are about 8 Bagwell's on the Yanks payroll this year. Steinbrenner is one of the most hated people in Baseball, but you don't see him asking all his high-paid over-the-hill players to kindly take a hike, do you? Why on Earth are you buying into McLane's poor man needs to save money thing?\

Here is another simple question for you to answer - Say McLane gets the insurance money, who is out there right now in the free agent market to spend it on??? Oh yeah, that's right, nobody. If McLane gets the insurance money, he will put it in his back pocket guaranteed.

[RedScare]

Funny you guys keep bringing up business is business in your arguments. It is not a hypothetical that Bagwell signed a 6 year, 85 million dollar contract with the Astros in December 2000. It doesn't matter the payment schedule, he is owed what he is owed. I didn't see anyone complaining when we paid him 6.5 million in 2001 when he hit 39 homers and 130 RBI's saying he deserved more money that year.......

There are about 8 Bagwell's on the Yanks payroll this year. Steinbrenner is one of the most hated people in Baseball, but you don't see him asking all his high-paid over-the-hill players to kindly take a hike, do you? Why on Earth are you buying into McLane's poor man needs to save money thing?\

Here is another simple question for you to answer - Say McLane gets the insurance money, who is out there right now in the free agent market to spend it on??? Oh yeah, that's right, nobody. If McLane gets the insurance money, he will put it in his back pocket guaranteed.

Name a Yankee that can't play who is getting $17 mil.

Bagwell is getting his money. No one is reneging on their contract.

If there is no one out there, then McLane SHOULD put the money in his pocket.

I must say I am very impressed with how generous you are with other people's money. I am confident that you would be willing to lose $17 mil if it was your team. However, Mr. McLane did not become a billionaire by being STUPID. And just because he owns a sports team does not require him to become so.

Frankly, I am still pissed at Bagwell for screwing his teamates and the fans over by insisting on taking a roster spot when he knows he can't throw.

[DJ V Lawrence]

OK, ProHouston, DJ, Dal, and Red Scare, please answer one simple question:

If Bagwell's salary was 6 million this year instead of 17, would you all be saying the same thing, that he doesn't even get a chance to see if he can come back from the surgury?

No, I wouldn't be saying the same thing. 6 million is, like, 11 million less than 17 million. I think 17 million's the highest that ANY Astro's making this season. You're basically telling me that you expect Bags to produce higher numbers than every Astro on the roster? He wasn't paid 17 million a season because of his past. It was because he was expected to be the strongest player on the team each of those years. Why do you think we offered Beltran so much to stay? Because not only was he a strong player that last season with the 'Stros, but because he was expected to get even better the year after.

[HeightsGuy]

Name a Yankee that can't play who is getting $17 mil.

Bagwell is getting his money. No one is reneging on their contract.

If there is no one out there, then McLane SHOULD put the money in his pocket.

I must say I am very impressed with how generous you are with other people's money. I am confident that you would be willing to lose $17 mil if it was your team. However, Mr. McLane did not become a billionaire by being STUPID. And just because he owns a sports team does not require him to become so.

Frankly, I am still pissed at Bagwell for screwing his teamates and the fans over by insisting on taking a roster spot when he knows he can't throw.

Look, I would be lock-and-step with you guys if this were the NBA or NFL. If the Astros had a salaray cap to worry about I would be the first to say Bags has to go to clear salary/room on the bench. But this is baseball, and Bagwell is not stealing money or position from any other player. If Bagwell can't make the team so be it, but he deserves the chance. And I'm not throwing around anyone's money, I'm saying McLane needs to hold up his end of the bargain (a contract as it were) and give Bags a chance to make the team.

[DJ V Lawrence]

Funny you guys keep bringing up business is business in your arguments. It is not a hypothetical that Bagwell signed a 6 year, 85 million dollar contract with the Astros in December 2000. It doesn't matter the payment schedule, he is owed what he is owed. I didn't see anyone complaining when we paid him 6.5 million in 2001 when he hit 39 homers and 130 RBI's saying he deserved more money that year.......

There are about 8 Bagwell's on the Yanks payroll this year. Steinbrenner is one of the most hated people in Baseball, but you don't see him asking all his high-paid over-the-hill players to kindly take a hike, do you? Why on Earth are you buying into McLane's poor man needs to save money thing?\

Here is another simple question for you to answer - Say McLane gets the insurance money, who is out there right now in the free agent market to spend it on??? Oh yeah, that's right, nobody. If McLane gets the insurance money, he will put it in his back pocket guaranteed.

Listen to what you're saying, bro.

1. He was offered a 6 year, 85 million dollar contract because he was expected to produce. You saw no one complaining when he was paid 6.5 million, hit 39 home runs and 130 RBI's and him asking more money because he was expected to hit even MORE the next season. He was UNDERPAID in 2001 for his work. He asks to get more money for his potential. He MIGHT recover from surgery, but there's no guarantee. HeightsGuy, exactly how much potential does Bags show right now to earn the 17.5 million on his contract for 2006? He can just heal overnight. He needs to recover first before he and the 'Stros know what damage he can do. Unfortunately, the Astros have no time. They have a World Series to win.

2.Steinbrenner. Not an attractive man. When dogs go to the park, they sniff his face >

He's the biggest spender in all baseball. But he's spending on who he thinks can improve the team. His club (Yankees) have the highest revenue in American sports. The Astros didn't even make the top 10 in revenue prior to last year. McClain can only spend on so much. And right now, with an entire team due to make roughly 87 million in payroll, the man that's due to cost 17.5 million out of that is not even confirmed to be in the starting lineups in 2006. HeightsGuy, how would that be smart?

3. If McClain gets the insurance money, he can't spend it on a big name free agent. No WONDER RedScare is appalled! If the Astros got the insurance claim right after the World Series, think of all the players that were available to us at THAT time. THAT'S why McClain wouldn't spend it on a free agent now. Not the other way around.

The 15 million would go into McClain's backpocket...and he could spend it with a trade for cash if he wanted. And I do think that Bagwell should be given the chance to play with the 'Stros. But if he plays subpar, what do you expect him to do? Pay the Astros back with a 15 million dollar check saying "I didn't earn the paycheck this season?"

Look, I would be lock-and-step with you guys if this were the NBA or NFL. If the Astros had a salaray cap to worry about I would be the first to say Bags has to go to clear salary/room on the bench. But this is baseball, and Bagwell is not stealing money or position from any other player. If Bagwell can't make the team so be it, but he deserves the chance. And I'm not throwing around anyone's money, I'm saying McLane needs to hold up his end of the bargain (a contract as it were) and give Bags a chance to make the team.

That's the point. If McClain fives Bags a chance to make the team, and Bags doesn't make it or doesn't recover fully, do you expect Bags to repay the Astros the 15 million that could have been guaranteed to them in an insurance policy three months before?

[RedScare]

Look, I would be lock-and-step with you guys if this were the NBA or NFL. If the Astros had a salaray cap to worry about I would be the first to say Bags has to go to clear salary/room on the bench. But this is baseball, and Bagwell is not stealing money or position from any other player. If Bagwell can't make the team so be it, but he deserves the chance. And I'm not throwing around anyone's money, I'm saying McLane needs to hold up his end of the bargain (a contract as it were) and give Bags a chance to make the team.

McLane's contract is to PAY him, not PLAY him. He has fulfilled his promise. MLB has roster limits. Bagwell and his gimp arm are taking pine from an uninjured, potentially productive player. He should take his $17 mil and go on vacation. My sympathy for him ends when he demands to play when he knows he cannot.

[DJ V Lawrence]

McLane's contract is to PAY him, not PLAY him. He has fulfilled his promise. MLB has roster limits. Bagwell and his gimp arm are taking pine from an uninjured, potentially productive player. He should take his $17 mil and go on vacation. My sympathy for him ends when he demands to play when he knows he cannot.

Once again, I understand RedScare.

My suggestion would be to go to Spring Training (like he is), and if he's not 100% by opening day, request to go to Triple AAA to heat up until mid-season, then come back and burn up the stats with your recovered shoulder. He's a great player, but he isn't being held back because he doesn't have skill or experience. He's being held back because he simply needs recovery time. Take all the time in the world. It's better to comeback in 6 months and produce than to comeback and not be physically capable to do what your mind knows your skills can do.

[HeightsGuy]

Well, you can't blame Bagwell for McLane signing an insurance policy with terms that say you have to prove disability 2 months before spring training. That's just not his fault.

You are saying exactly what I am saying, but the point is not that Bagwell was underpaid in 2001 and overpaid in 2006, it's that Bagwell signed for 85 million in 2000. The payment schedule of that contract should have no bearing on anything. He was well worth 85 mil, many players of his caliper at that time got bigger money, and he could have taken the money train to Boston if he chose.

Finally, no one including Bagwell thinks that he will play this year if he can't. All he wants is the shot.

Once again, I understand RedScare.

My suggestion would be to go to Spring Training (like he is), and if he's not 100% by opening day, request to go to Triple AAA to heat up until mid-season, then come back and burn up the stats with your recovered shoulder. He's a great player, but he isn't being held back because he doesn't have skill or experience. He's being held back because he simply needs recovery time. Take all the time in the world. It's better to comeback in 6 months and produce than to comeback and not be physically capable to do what your mind knows your skills can do.

DJ, you're missing the point, the Astros are trying to prevent Bagwell from going to spring training.

[DJ V Lawrence]

Finally, no one including Bagwell thinks that he will play this year if he can't. All he wants is the shot.

DJ, you're missing the point, the Astros are trying to prevent Bagwell from going to spring training.

I thought Bagwell was still reporting to Spring Training. From what I understood, Bagwell is going there to see where he AND the Astros could see where he stands at that time. What's he being prevented from?

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/3610644.html

[HeightsGuy]

McLane's contract is to PAY him, not PLAY him. He has fulfilled his promise. MLB has roster limits. Bagwell and his gimp arm are taking pine from an uninjured, potentially productive player. He should take his $17 mil and go on vacation. My sympathy for him ends when he demands to play when he knows he cannot.

You're absolutely right, but McLane has not fulfilled his promise. McLane is trying to get Bagwell listed as finished in the major league so that he can get the insurance money to pay Bagwell. If he get's that wish, Bagwell won't be allowed to step foot on the field in an Astros uniform to even get the chance to prove whether he can play.

You don't have to play to get paid, your right. Albert Bell got 30 million in paychecks from Baltimore after his hip injury. Bagwell will have no problem stepping aside if he doesn't make the team, but he deserves the chance.

[DJ V Lawrence]

You're absolutely right, but McLane has not fulfilled his promise. McLane is trying to get Bagwell listed as finished in the major league so that he can get the insurance money to pay Bagwell. If he get's that wish, Bagwell won't be allowed to step foot on the field in an Astros uniform to even get the chance to prove whether he can play.

You don't have to play to get paid, your right. Albert Bell got 30 million in paychecks from Baltimore after his hip injury. Bagwell will have no problem stepping aside if he doesn't make the team, but he deserves the chance.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/3610644.html

Did you read the article yet?

How exactly does this insurance claim work anyway?

[HeightsGuy]

I thought Bagwell was still reporting to Spring Training. From what I understood, Bagwell is going there to see where he AND the Astros could see where he stands at that time. What's he being prevented from?

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/3610644.html

If the Astros get the insurance company to agree with their assesement that Bags is disabled and pay the dividend, they would lose the dividend if Bagwell stepped on the field in spring training. Contracts state that if the doctors call you injured, you are prevented from playing. Most of the time no one disputes this, when your knee is blown out it's blown out. What Bags is saying is that the doctors can't make the determination yet with 2 more months to go. He wants the chance to continue rehabbing until the start of spring training and then make the decision. Bagwell is fully prepared to call it a career if he can't come back.

The Astos on the other hand have a 1/31 deadline to either declare Bagwell disabled or not.

[RedScare]

You're absolutely right, but McLane has not fulfilled his promise. McLane is trying to get Bagwell listed as finished in the major league so that he can get the insurance money to pay Bagwell. If he get's that wish, Bagwell won't be allowed to step foot on the field in an Astros uniform to even get the chance to prove whether he can play.

You don't have to play to get paid, your right. Albert Bell got 30 million in paychecks from Baltimore after his hip injury. Bagwell will have no problem stepping aside if he doesn't make the team, but he deserves the chance.

How can you call me right and then try to argue otherwise? There are 27 players on an MLB team? Are any of them allowed to contractually demand to play? Nope. Not even Clemens. NFL has 45 players. Some sit on the bench the entire year. It is the coaches or owners call. The contract only gives you the right to be paid for your service to the team. It does not give you the right to play, or frankly, even show up.

Your argument should be filed under the "It's not Fair" category, not the "Breach of Contract" category. And I've already told you what I think of Bagwell trying to force his broken body onto a limited roster, so the fairness argument is a loser, too.

[ldogg]

But this is baseball, and Bagwell is not stealing money or position from any other player. If Bagwell can't make the team so be it, but he deserves the chance. And I'm not throwing around anyone's money, I'm saying McLane needs to hold up his end of the bargain (a contract as it were) and give Bags a chance to make the team.

No, it isn't "so be it".... if the Astros didn't file the claim and Bagwell showed up and could not play this season then they'd still be on the hook for his $17million... as you said, he has earned it by taking on a backloaded contract... but is it fair to the team and to McLane to expect them to just pay it when they have an insurance policy to handle this very situation??? it is unfortunate that the policy forces them to file by Jan 31, but that is life and reality... they could have tried to force Bags to have surgery earlier so that this wasn't an issue, but instead they had him flailing away at the plate in the World Series... would he have been crying then about not being able to play in the WS for all he's done for this club?? this shouldn't be about a blame game, because really no one is to blame.... this is about doing what is best for the club and what is proper given the current limitations and situations... Bagwell is dead wrong for bitching about this to the media.. he is making the situation worse... we should have sat there and shut his mouth to see what the insurance company decides...

as for Drayton just shoving that $15.6 million in his back pocket... HAH.. not going to happen... that money will be earmarked for signing Roger Clemens in May.... bank on that...

[DJ V Lawrence]

If the Astros get the insurance company to agree with their assesement that Bags is disabled and pay the dividend, they would lose the dividend if Bagwell stepped on the field in spring training. Contracts state that if the doctors call you injured, you are prevented from playing. Most of the time no one disputes this, when your knee is blown out it's blown out. What Bags is saying is that the doctors can't make the determination yet with 2 more months to go. He wants the chance to continue rehabbing until the start of spring training and then make the decision. Bagwell is fully prepared to call it a career if he can't come back.

The Astos on the other hand have a 1/31 deadline to either declare Bagwell disabled or not.

So HeightsGuy, if the Astros missed the 1/31 deadline, and Bagwell found out 2 months from now that he couldn't play, then how would the Astros be guaranteed to get the 15 million back?

[DJ V Lawrence]

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/3800232.html

This was bound to happen. The Astros are sueing the insurance company.