Townhomes At 3314 Harrisburg Blvd.

[hindesky]

[HirschWacoYork]

I really dislike this. I suppose I get it, because - Houston - but I still dislike it. It just seems like such a waste, long term, for a piece of land so close to a major downtown artery and rail stop. Perfect scenario: buy the whole block and do a podium or courtyard project. Essentially mirror NewHope. Even a true townhouse concept where the units are connected would have been a little better, right? 

[samagon]

it's not the best use of the land 30 years from now, it's the best use of the land now.

if you look at the area, this is a huge uplift to the area, sure it could have been more, but there is more right across the street, and there will be more in the coming years. first steps are often not the biggest steps.

[hindesky]

[hindesky]

[HirschWacoYork]

On 2/9/2023 at 7:39 AM, samagon said:

it's not the best use of the land 30 years from now, it's the best use of the land now.

if you look at the area, this is a huge uplift to the area, sure it could have been more, but there is more right across the street, and there will be more in the coming years. first steps are often not the biggest steps.

Probably my biggest complaint about Houston urban development - or maybe urban development in general - is that it focuses too much on "best use now". If this is not the best use in 30 years, then why offer a product where a 30 year mortgage is likely used to purchase? 

"Huge" might be a bit hyperbolic, but I agree additional residential development is good. These 5 town homes however have potential to max out at like, 15 residents? 10 if they're all car dependent, despite living right next to the metro. 10-15 people isn't as much as it could be for the neighborhood. I also pessimistically imagine at least 1 being an AirBnB right out of the gate, and a couple turn into rentals in 5 years. 

 

[samagon]

your opinion is that 5 townhomes isn't a huge uplift from 15000 feet of grassy concrete slab, at the end of the day, it's a matter of opinion.

the land being used for this development is 15,000 sf. there's 4 other developments on the same block that all are currently occupied, and I doubt whoever is building these townhomes owns those plots. what would be the best use of 15,000 sf? a gas station? a convenience store? a bar? should you just sit on it because what you can build on it isn't someone's idea of the 'highest use' of what the land might be in 30 years? does the county not charge property taxes in that situation?

maybe I misspoke, whether it's the best use of the land now, or 30 years from now, it's going to offer the return on investment that the owner is looking for at the investment they were willing to make, and to that end, it is the highest use of the land.

[Amlaham]

19 hours ago, samagon said:

your opinion is that 5 townhomes isn't a huge uplift from 15000 feet of grassy concrete slab, at the end of the day, it's a matter of opinion.

the land being used for this development is 15,000 sf. there's 4 other developments on the same block that all are currently occupied, and I doubt whoever is building these townhomes owns those plots. what would be the best use of 15,000 sf? a gas station? a convenience store? a bar? should you just sit on it because what you can build on it isn't someone's idea of the 'highest use' of what the land might be in 30 years? does the county not charge property taxes in that situation?

maybe I misspoke, whether it's the best use of the land now, or 30 years from now, it's going to offer the return on investment that the owner is looking for at the investment they were willing to make, and to that end, it is the highest use of the land.

I think he's suggesting more denser units instead of single family townhomes since its right off the rail line. Which I kind of agree with but this is still a plus considering what it was before. For example, it would have been nice if this was a multifamily building with 1 retail store on the Harrisburg. Don't say it can't be done because of the lot size because nothing is impossible. This all goes back to wanting a more dense/ walkable/ urban environment.

[HouTXRanger]

On 2/22/2023 at 8:35 AM, HirschWacoYork said:

Probably my biggest complaint about Houston urban development - or maybe urban development in general - is that it focuses too much on "best use now". If this is not the best use in 30 years, then why offer a product where a 30 year mortgage is likely used to purchase? 

"Huge" might be a bit hyperbolic, but I agree additional residential development is good. These 5 town homes however have potential to max out at like, 15 residents? 10 if they're all car dependent, despite living right next to the metro. 10-15 people isn't as much as it could be for the neighborhood. I also pessimistically imagine at least 1 being an AirBnB right out of the gate, and a couple turn into rentals in 5 years.
 

In a place like Houston, I don't think seeing this as a "missed opportunity" for something better makes a lot of sense. If you look at google maps, there are tons of empty or under-utilized lots all around that will likely get filled in with denser housing soon. Houston's imperfect pro-housing codes work precisely because they aren't concerned with creating the "ideal" land use on a given parcel, but by pushing every development to be at least a slight improvement on what was there before (in terms of density, mixed use, TOD, etc.)

Look at this another way: the increased number of people living on what used to be a grass lot, and the increased number of people living in other imperfect but "good enough" residential developments nearby, will drive growth for future mixed-use and dense developments like the one you would prefer be built here (and objectively would be better).

On a completely 100% subjective personal note, little oddities like how these townhomes don't *quite* fit the capacity of this street, and how they will look *slightly* out of place as Harrisburg continues to fill in with denser buildings, is probably going to add to the character of the neighborhood decades from now. Generally many fine-grain developments that don't quite match are a lot more interesting than large-grain full-block developments that would occupy the same space. We used to build that all the time, but now we call those neighborhoods "historic districts" like market square. Worst case scenario is they get torn down in 20 years for something better, but in the meantime people get to live there and nearby businesses get patrons.

[samagon]

1 hour ago, Amlaham said:

I think he's suggesting more denser units instead of single family townhomes since its right off the rail line. Which I kind of agree with but this is still a plus considering what it was before. For example, it would have been nice if this was a multifamily building with 1 retail store on the Harrisburg. Don't say it can't be done because of the lot size because nothing is impossible. This all goes back to wanting a more dense/ walkable/ urban environment.

I guess the question still remains though, what can you build on 15,000 sf that's more dense? 

the next question, does that project have buyers in that specific location?

and the most important question, does the owner of that land have the budget to chase a project that is more dense?

[samagon]

I guess that's why I'm asking, at least the first question. 

what would be more dense than the townhomes that could go on 15,000 sf?

I know what can be done in other cities with different rules and ordinances, I also know what was done in our own city before there were ordinances that disallowed certain things.

so far I haven't seen anyone say what could, or should, only lamentations about what is, I mean @HirschWacoYork put some things out there, but suggested a mirror of the new hope building, which takes up the whole block (when the owner has 1/6 that much land to work with) is kind of impossible on the footprint, or maybe it could be townhomes that share walls. but what does that buy? it still would only be 5 units, maybe 5 bigger units, or 5 units with more driveway space?

I don't think I'm being passive aggressive, I think I'm looking at it from a practical viewpoint, one of a business owner, and asking questions. I appreciate your feedback though and will attempt to modify my tone when responding to posts about 'best use of land' come up, or maybe I'll just skip responding entirely.

so what's your thoughts? what should be built on this 15,000 sf of land, ignoring any limitations of the owner's budget?

for me, if I'm throwing practicality to the wind, it's maybe a 3 story structure with a 4,000 sf footprint, that leaves about 11,000 sf for parking, which is maybe 30 spots for 12,000 sf of leasable space? since it's close enough to the LR you get the benefit of needing 50% fewer parking spots. maybe the whole first floor is dedicated for retail? 2 leasable spaces, 3500 sf for a restaurant concept, and 1500 sf for a coffee concept.

back to practicality though, this project is probably costing the owner less than half of what a project like 3509 Harrisburg will cost (which is pretty much what I would think might be a good middle ground of best use), they will see a nearly immediate ROI, vs years for a 3509 build. but I guess this is where I am looking like I'm being passive aggressive, I'm thinking of it from a business standpoint and what is going to make an investor money today, or at least start getting them ROI today, or worst case, what is going to just bankrupt someone who's building because they're thinking of 30 years from now, and not today. 

and I am sorry for coming across that way, it's not my intent.

Edited February 23, 2023 by samagon

[Amlaham]

On 2/23/2023 at 2:58 PM, samagon said:

I guess that's why I'm asking, at least the first question. 

what would be more dense than the townhomes that could go on 15,000 sf?

I know what can be done in other cities with different rules and ordinances, I also know what was done in our own city before there were ordinances that disallowed certain things.

so far I haven't seen anyone say what could, or should, only lamentations about what is, I mean @HirschWacoYork put some things out there, but suggested a mirror of the new hope building, which takes up the whole block (when the owner has 1/6 that much land to work with) is kind of impossible on the footprint, or maybe it could be townhomes that share walls. but what does that buy? it still would only be 5 units, maybe 5 bigger units, or 5 units with more driveway space?

I don't think I'm being passive aggressive, I think I'm looking at it from a practical viewpoint, one of a business owner, and asking questions. I appreciate your feedback though and will attempt to modify my tone when responding to posts about 'best use of land' come up, or maybe I'll just skip responding entirely.

so what's your thoughts? what should be built on this 15,000 sf of land, ignoring any limitations of the owner's budget?

for me, if I'm throwing practicality to the wind, it's maybe a 3 story structure with a 4,000 sf footprint, that leaves about 11,000 sf for parking, which is maybe 30 spots for 12,000 sf of leasable space? since it's close enough to the LR you get the benefit of needing 50% fewer parking spots. maybe the whole first floor is dedicated for retail? 2 leasable spaces, 3500 sf for a restaurant concept, and 1500 sf for a coffee concept.

back to practicality though, this project is probably costing the owner less than half of what a project like 3509 Harrisburg will cost (which is pretty much what I would think might be a good middle ground of best use), they will see a nearly immediate ROI, vs years for a 3509 build. but I guess this is where I am looking like I'm being passive aggressive, I'm thinking of it from a business standpoint and what is going to make an investor money today, or at least start getting them ROI today, or worst case, what is going to just bankrupt someone who's building because they're thinking of 30 years from now, and not today. 

and I am sorry for coming across that way, it's not my intent.

I get what you're saying from the owners/ business perspective. But @HirschWacoYork and myself were discussing it from an urban planning perspective, we aren't discussing the technicalities. The owners/ business intention of making money aside, it just seemed silly that single family homes were going up on this lot considering all the work thats being done in the area to improve walkability/ urbanization. No need to apologize, it gets a little confusing reading a tone from text. I apologize if I was being being a little too aggressive, was just trying to get my point across 😅

Edited February 27, 2023 by editor
Edited by editor to remove a portion of the bickering that has been removed from this thread.

[editor]

On 2/22/2023 at 10:35 AM, HirschWacoYork said:

Probably my biggest complaint about Houston urban development - or maybe urban development in general - is that it focuses too much on "best use now". If this is not the best use in 30 years, then why offer a product where a 30 year mortgage is likely used to purchase? 

It's the result of a different method.

"Best use now" is what you get when there's no zoning.  The owner decides, and the owner has a finite lifespan.

"Best use 30 years from now" is what you get when you have zoning, where a group or committee guides what the city will look like in the future.

Which is better is an argument older than HAIF, and out of scope for this thread.

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[samagon]

it kind of looks like these will have a little 100sf patio on the southwest facing side? 

that'll be good for the downtown views, but horrible for June - October.

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