The future lies in rail

[Slick Vik]

Not sure whether you're trolling or not, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.  You call anyone that lives out on the fringes a fool and then you complain about how inside the loop is choking?

 

You realize that the population of the Houston metro area is 6.177 million, that the population inside the loop is 7% of the total population of the metro, and that the areas inside the loop aren't even the areas with the highest density in the metro?

 

University line would have a station in gulfton, and one near hillcroft, a very densely populated area.

[august948]

False. If a system is built properly you don't have to take it into town, you can just as easily take it around or out of town.

 

And do you believe that the same organization that built the bus system you call "atrocious" would build such a thing properly?  The Houston CMSA is spread out over 8,778 square miles and the city alone is 600 square miles.  How would it even be possible or realistic to create a "properly built" system to cover such an area?

 

[august948]

Your state of thinking is another generation's, and thankfully slowly people are realizing it's unsustainable. Honestly you sound like you have a vested interest in the entire automobile culture continuing.

 

19th century technology isn't going to solve this problem.  Honestly, I've been wondering for a while now if you work for a company dependent on public transportation contracts (or METRO).

 

[Texasota]

And do you believe that the same organization that built the bus system you call "atrocious" would build such a thing properly?  The Houston CMSA is spread out over 8,778 square miles and the city alone is 600 square miles.  How would it even be possible or realistic to create a "properly built" system to cover such an area?

 

 

This isn't about a single solution that covers the entire region; it's about tailoring transit options to specific parts of the city. (at least right now) The light rail lines are all going in relatively high density areas that are already experiencing population growth. Density in some these neighborhoods *is* already high enough to support real transit, and it's increasing. 

 

You have your freeways. Let us have our trains. We want them. We will use them. 

[august948]

This isn't about a single solution that covers the entire region; it's about tailoring transit options to specific parts of the city. (at least right now) The light rail lines are all going in relatively high density areas that are already experiencing population growth. Density in some these neighborhoods *is* already high enough to support real transit, and it's increasing. 

 

You have your freeways. Let us have our trains. We want them. We will use them. 

 

My appologies, I thought the premise of this thread was that rail is the future for region-wide transit.  No doubt the light rail is here to stay inside the loop.  The only question is if and how it will be expanded there.  As long as total mobility dollars for inside the loop were limited to, say, 7% of the total region-wide I could live with that.  That 7% could be allocated however is most efficient for transit inside the loop and the remaining 93% could be allocated to what's most efficient for outside-the-loop residents.

 

[livincinco]

The whole rails v. freeways commentaries is kind of pointless because the question comes down to the costs and benefits of the individual projects, but most people seem unwilling to have civil conversation at that level. 

 

In my opinion, reasonable conversation about a particular project involves identifying projected demand, projected costs, benefit to the overall network, and ROI. 

 

Or we could just yell at each other...

[Slick Vik]

My appologies, I thought the premise of this thread was that rail is the future for region-wide transit.  No doubt the light rail is here to stay inside the loop.  The only question is if and how it will be expanded there.  As long as total mobility dollars for inside the loop were limited to, say, 7% of the total region-wide I could live with that.  That 7% could be allocated however is most efficient for transit inside the loop and the remaining 93% could be allocated to what's most efficient for outside-the-loop residents.

 

 

What about the % of outside the loop residents that come into the city 5 days a week?

19th century technology isn't going to solve this problem.  Honestly, I've been wondering for a while now if you work for a company dependent on public transportation contracts (or METRO).

 

 

That's what you think, but the majority of the rest of the world disagrees with you.

[Slick Vik]

The whole rails v. freeways commentaries is kind of pointless because the question comes down to the costs and benefits of the individual projects, but most people seem unwilling to have civil conversation at that level. 

 

In my opinion, reasonable conversation about a particular project involves identifying projected demand, projected costs, benefit to the overall network, and ROI. 

 

Or we could just yell at each other...

 

Well if you want to be realistic, the university line is a beneficial project. It connects two more employment centers to the overall light rail system, galleria (also a leisure destination) and greenway plaza, and travels down a frequently traveled corridor. Also the street of potholes, aka Richmond, would be fixed as the street would be rebuilt. And Gulfton and Hillcroft would get stations, probably the area of town where good transit is needed most.

[nativehoustonion]

We should name it the Culberson Line if they finally build it! LOL!   

[august948]

What about the % of outside the loop residents that come into the city 5 days a week?

 

That's what you think, but the majority of the rest of the world disagrees with you.

 

That's where I advocate futher distributing the employment outside of the loop.  Which is already happening anyway.

 

The majority thought the world was flat at one time.  What does that prove?

 

[livincinco]

Well if you want to be realistic, the university line is a beneficial project. It connects two more employment centers to the overall light rail system, galleria (also a leisure destination) and greenway plaza, and travels down a frequently traveled corridor. Also the street of potholes, aka Richmond, would be fixed as the street would be rebuilt. And Gulfton and Hillcroft would get stations, probably the area of town where good transit is needed most.

 

I think that the U line is actually the most rail ready line in the city.  More so than the ones that are getting built based on projected ridership.  However, I have significant concerns given that there's not an identified source for funding and the timeline seems very questionable.

 

Given that we are living in a world of funding constraints for transportation projects, I think that the serious consideration should be given to true BRT for this route and would want to know the difference in cost for that option.  The projected ridership numbers for this line are well within BRT standards (approx. 32,000 workday riders).  The implementation costs and timeline for BRT would be more favorable to current conditions and it's already set to potentially link up to BRT on the Galleria end.

 

If we assume that rail comes in at the estimated $1.5 billion and let's estimate BRT at $700 million (no facts behind that number), I'd want to understand the opportunity cost of that $800 million because that's money that could be used for other projects.

 

http://www.fta.dot.gov/documents/130_TX_Houston-University_LRT.pdf

[august948]

I think that the U line is actually the most rail ready line in the city.  More so than the ones that are getting built based on projected ridership.  However, I have significant concerns given that there's not an identified source for funding and the timeline seems very questionable.

 

Given that we are living in a world of funding constraints for transportation projects, I think that the serious consideration should be given to true BRT for this route and would want to know the difference in cost for that option.  The projected ridership numbers for this line are well within BRT standards (approx. 32,000 workday riders).  The implementation costs and timeline for BRT would be more favorable to current conditions and it's already set to potentially link up to BRT on the Galleria end.

 

If we assume that rail comes in at the estimated $1.3 billion and let's estimate BRT at $700 million (no facts behind that number), I'd want to understand the opportunity cost of that $600 million because that's money that could be used for other projects.

 

What about running QuickLine service to start to see what interest there is a faster alternative to the local bus?

 

[nativehoustonion]

Oh, but they broke ground on the Grand Parkway, and the Hardy extension in no time.  At least if you want to go the The Woodlands to Katy or Cinco Ranch all those cars do not have to come into the city.  That is a plus!  And METRO had to fight tooth and nail to build the 3 lines. 

[Slick Vik]

I think that the U line is actually the most rail ready line in the city.  More so than the ones that are getting built based on projected ridership.  However, I have significant concerns given that there's not an identified source for funding and the timeline seems very questionable.

 

Given that we are living in a world of funding constraints for transportation projects, I think that the serious consideration should be given to true BRT for this route and would want to know the difference in cost for that option.  The projected ridership numbers for this line are well within BRT standards (approx. 32,000 workday riders).  The implementation costs and timeline for BRT would be more favorable to current conditions and it's already set to potentially link up to BRT on the Galleria end.

 

If we assume that rail comes in at the estimated $1.5 billion and let's estimate BRT at $700 million (no facts behind that number), I'd want to understand the opportunity cost of that $800 million because that's money that could be used for other projects.

 

http://www.fta.dot.gov/documents/130_TX_Houston-University_LRT.pdf

 

The people voted for rail, should their wishes be ignored?

[Slick Vik]

That's where I advocate futher distributing the employment outside of the loop.  Which is already happening anyway.

 

The majority thought the world was flat at one time.  What does that prove?

 

 

So you think downtown, galleria, greenway plaza, and medical center will become desolate areas like East St. Louis? Not happening.

[livincinco]

The people voted for rail, should their wishes be ignored?

 

As far as I can tell, there's no identified funding source for this line and there's no timeline for starting construction on this. You're welcome to keep waiting as long as you want, because I haven't heard anyone commit to timing on this.

 

Oh, but they broke ground on the Grand Parkway, and the Hardy extension in no time.  At least if you want to go the The Woodlands to Katy or Cinco Ranch all those cars do not have to come into the city.  That is a plus!  And METRO had to fight tooth and nail to build the 3 lines. 

 

Those are toll roads, so they have an identified funding source and, as the Beltway has proven, turn profitable over time because the income obtained is larger than the operating and debt costs.  METRO charges fees, but they run a huge operating loss on an annual basis in addition to the debt costs that they incur.

[nativehoustonion]

I know they are toll roads but that can keep a lot of traffic coming through Houston.  Segment E is getting ready to open.  Is it the largest loop in the country when completed? 

[Slick Vik]

As far as I can tell, there's no identified funding source for this line and there's no timeline for starting construction on this. You're welcome to keep waiting as long as you want, because I haven't heard anyone commit to timing on this.

 

The strategy was to stall as long as possible, which is what Culberson did. And it worked. Feds will match dollar for dollar so I guess they need $650 million. Ending GM payments would've done the trick, but Parker went against it for this election, and METRO itself did too because it got bullied by Steve Radak and the county commissioners.

[august948]

So you think downtown, galleria, greenway plaza, and medical center will become desolate areas like East St. Louis? Not happening.

 

Desolate?  Not hardly.  But it's less pie-in-the-sky to see more employment shift out of the core than it is to expect commuter rail to fix things.

 

[Slick Vik]

The Marmaray, the underwater rail tunnel linking the European and Asian sides of Istanbul, took its maiden journey on Oct. 29 following a grand ceremony celebrating the realization of the government’s first of many mega projects.

The ceremony, which coincided with the 90th anniversary of the foundation of the Turkish Republic, was attended by Turkish President Abdullah Gül and Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdoğan, as well as Japanese Prime Minister Shinzo Abe, Romanian Prime Minister Victor Ponta, Somali President Hasan Sheikh Mahmud and a number of foreign civil servants.

Speaking at the ceremony, President Abdullah Gül said the government’s vision and stability had made the realization of the Marmaray possible.

“An environment of stability and trust established in recent year paved the way for the realization of large projects. In the upcoming period, definitely larger ones will come online,” he said.

Erdoğan also said the project was just the first of other giant transportation projects slated for Istanbul and Turkey.

Erdoğan began his speech by commemorating Mehmed the Conqueror, who conquered Istanbul in 1453, attributing his government’s strong emphasis on ostensibly “serving the public” to the sultan’s method of ruling.

After apologizing to residents in Üsküdar for the disturbance created during the construction work, Erdoğan said; “Every holy birth is painful. We have suffered, but now we will experience this happiness together. You will also thank God,” he said.

The railway system project that will measure approximately 76 kilometers in total is expected to transport around 1 million people per day by connecting the continents in four minutes.

The ceremony held on Republic Day only marked the opening of only a small part of the project that will be supported by 63 kilometers of suburban lines.

Erdoğan also noted the date of the inauguration ceremony was deliberately picked as the 90th anniversary of Republic. “We have never forgotten the road to the proclamation of the republic,” he said.

The prime minister also boasted about the accomplishments his Justice and Development Party (AKP) has achieved during its 11 years in power.“We have added 17,000 kilometers of roads in 11 years, while there had been [just] 6,100 kilometers of roads constructed throughout the republic’s history. We have multiplied the investments made. There were 26 airports when we came to duty. Today we have surpassed 50,” he said.

Transportation projects are not the AKP government’s only achievements, however, he said.
“We have given the republic a much stronger structure by decorating [Turkey] with brotherhood, unity, solidarity, justice, equality and democracy networks,” he said.

Erdoğan also said the Marmaray was not only connecting two continents but also realizing a century-old dream.

The idea of the tunnel was first floated by Ottoman sultan Abdülmecid in 1860, but technical equipment at the time was not good enough to take the project further.

“This project that was dreamed of 153 years ago, has been realized by our government happily,” President Abdullah Gül also said.

Tokyo-Istanbul-London line vision

Speaking before Erdoğan, Japanese Prime Minister Shinzo Abe had called on everybody to dream of a high-speed train beginning in Tokyo and passing through Istanbul on the way to London, drawing praise from the audience and Erdoğan.

“Tokyo, Beijing, London, Üsküdar: Can it be? It can. The Marmaray is the project of all our brothers in Beijing, London and Tokyo,” Erdoğan said, responding Abe’s call.

Abe also repeated his amicable messages that stressed the warm relations between Turkey and Japan, while speaking at the ceremony.

“Turkish people have been progressing by preserving their history and traditions carefully. As the ones coming from the east of the Asia, we know very well about the problems you experience in the west of Asia,” he said.

Along with Parliamanetary Speaker Cemil Çiçek, Istanbul Metropolitan Mayor Kadir Topbaş, Gov. Hüseyin Avni Mutlu and Transportation Minister Binali Yıldırım at the ceremony, the Romanian prime minister also hit the stage.

Noting that the project would again connect Europe and Asia, this time through railways as a new Silk Road, Ponta described the Marmaray as a great achievement, “which could only succeed with great people and great leadership.”

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/marmaray-set-for-maiden-journey-on-turkish-republics-90th-anniversary.aspx?pageID=238&nID=57035&NewsCatID=341

[nativehoustonion]

You are right so in 2020 when Houston has 2.6 million people and the MSA almost 7 million.  They are to say what happened?  Why is there so much traffic?  No city with a solid transportation plan cannot continue to grow.  We are booming now and Harris, Fort Bend, Montgomery, Brazoria, city, and METRO needs a plan.  Or it will hurt our economy.   So when the Panama Canal is done in 2015 there will twice as many trucks on the freeways.  With two International Airports.  Hopefully Culberson will be gone!  Get people on the rail lines and have the buses go out to the burbs.

[august948]

You are right so in 2020 when Houston has 2.6 million people and the MSA almost 7 million.  They are to say what happened?  Why is there so much traffic?  No city with a solid transportation plan cannot continue to grow.  We are booming now and Harris, Fort Bend, Montgomery, Brazoria, city, and METRO needs a plan.  Or it will hurt our economy.   So when the Panama Canal is done in 2015 there will twice as many trucks on the freeways.  With two International Airports.  Hopefully Culberson will be gone!  Get people on the rail lines and have the buses go out to the burbs.

 

Or have the buses go from burb to burb, or more accurately from living centers to employment centers without having to stop and change buses downtown.

 

[livincinco]

The strategy was to stall as long as possible, which is what Culberson did. And it worked. Feds will match dollar for dollar so I guess they need $650 million. Ending GM payments would've done the trick, but Parker went against it for this election, and METRO itself did too because it got bullied by Steve Radak and the county commissioners.

 

“The 'what should be' never did exist, but people keep trying to live up to it. There is no 'what should be,' there is only what is.”

― Lenny Bruce

 

[Slick Vik]

“The 'what should be' never did exist, but people keep trying to live up to it. There is no 'what should be,' there is only what is.”

― Lenny Bruce

 

 

People voted for it. I guess that means nothing to you.

Or have the buses go from burb to burb, or more accurately from living centers to employment centers without having to stop and change buses downtown.

 

 

Again, people that don't even ride the bus commentating on how great buses are is odd yet hysterical.

[IronTiger]

People voted for it. I guess that means nothing to you.

And yet when people vote against light rail...

 

Again, people that don't even ride the bus commentating on how great buses are is odd yet hysterical.

What about you? Either you are an elitist inner looper who never (or rarely) rides the bus, or secretly a suburbanite yearning to escape from traffic jams. From your posts, it could go either way...

[Slick Vik]

And yet when people vote against light rail...

What about you? Either you are an elitist inner looper who never (or rarely) rides the bus, or secretly a suburbanite yearning to escape from traffic jams. From your posts, it could go either way...

When is the last time people voted against rail here? 30 years ago!

I live in the inner loop and ride the bus 10 times a week.

[IronTiger]

I live in the inner loop and ride the bus 10 times a week.

Sold the Mercedes, huh?  

[Slick Vik]

Sold the Mercedes, huh?

No I still have it. I just don't like driving much.

[Texasota]

Cars, trains and buses are all stupid. Everybody should ride bikes. Theyre healthier, cheaper, and sometimes even faster.

[Texasota]

Also, I wish we had BCycle stations for horses. think about it. way safer than bikes