Replacing buses with rail has boosted ridership in Los Angeles

[Slick Vik]

I was never talking about the MSA because, as I've explained, those boundaries are inappropriate for a comparative analysis of density. Your comment was tangential at best, meaningless in fact, and intended to mislead in the worst possible case.

You did this to shape your argument in a fashion that helps you.

[TheNiche]

You did this to shape your argument in a fashion that helps you.

True, I probably wouldn't have brought it up if it contradicted my hypothesis. But that the meaningful data supports my hypothesis is your problem, not mine. You can either find a way to criticize my data with intellectual honesty or you can present some of your own and await my criticism of it.

But if all you can do is point out circumstantial ad hominems, then you've lost the argument.

[ricco67]

Excuse me, but as the caveman of the group, I'd just like to ask a simple question:

Wouldn't the traffic and development be influenced by the terrain? That in itself would spur more dense development to begin with?

[mfastx]

And Metro seems to have halted any significant bus expansion for the foreseeable future. If you look at older bus maps from the HouTran and early Metro days you'll see that buses ran out ti the very edge of the suburbs. That doesn't happen anymore.

Where can I find some of those maps? And do you know the ridership of the suburban routes that METRO cut?

The last time I've looked at individual route riderhsip numbers I noticed that METRO had cut one or two routes. And those routes had something like 14 riders a day. Do you think METRO should run empty buses just for the sake of more service?

[MetroMogul]

Go to the Julia Ideson library and request them. They have a number of them along with some pretty neat news clippings. I went in and asked on a whim and was rewarded with a bulging folder. I must've died and went to heaven.

And Metro didn't cut those suburban routes. The area just grew around them. The 66 - Bellaire had a branch that served Beechnut @ Jorine back in the 70s. Bear in mind the Beechnut bridge over Brays Bayou was only completed in 1973.

Rapid Transit/Houtran had a myriad of problems but they at least made attempts to tweak their services and be on the cutting edge so to speak. To the point they over extended themselves. Look at the large number of branches certain routes had. And there were more Limited and Express via Freeway trips back then.

[RedScare]

Rapid Transit/Houtran had a myriad of problems but they at least made attempts to tweak their services and be on the cutting edge so to speak. To the point they over extended themselves. Look at the large number of branches certain routes had. And there were more Limited and Express via Freeway trips back then.

Revisionist history if there ever was such a term. I was around to vote for METRO. The referendum would never have occurred had HouTran been anywhere near the cutting edge.

[VicMan]

TheNiche, the Los Angelez MSA only includes LA and Orange counties. San Bernardino and Riverside are not in the LA MSA but are included in the LA CSA

[MetroMogul]

Revisionist history if there ever was such a term. I was around to vote for METRO. The referendum would never have occurred had HouTran been anywhere near the cutting edge.

You misunderstand what I'm saying. I'm not talking about the fleet or overall operation and execution. I'm talking about the bus routes themselves.

The 15 - Alabama, 66 - Bellaire and the 88 - Beechnut, among others, had been operating to and outside the old city limits since the late 60s and early 70s.

Metro might be a bit constrained on where they can operate but there are communities within the service area that could have bus service but don't. Katy, Missouri City, and Clear Lake come to mind. Now before you mention it, I'm aware of the park and ride lots. I speak of local bus service.

HouTran was a debacle but they tried to cram bus service everywhere they could. Red Metro refined that system and streamlined operations. Golden age Metro expanded it. Dark Ages Metro poisoned it. Time will tell what the New Metro has in store.

[TheNiche]

TheNiche, the Los Angelez MSA only includes LA and Orange counties. San Bernardino and Riverside are not in the LA MSA but are included in the LA CSA

Yes, I know.

Edited September 17, 2012 by TheNiche

[luciaphile]

Why do you people not READ stuff before you respond!? This is extremely frustrating.

You're looking at figures for the City of Los Angeles or the County of Los Angeles, which are political entities whose boundaries do not conform at all with the machinations of a city as an economic entity, much less a transit authority whose service area extends beyond them.

The Census attempts to cope with these issues by defining MSAs wherein commuting patterns between outlying counties and core counties indicate a decidedly one-sided flow. However, these entities are delineated by County. As a result, western MSAs have a tendency for being ridiculously large in terms of square mileage and for not conforming very well with commuting patterns that decidedly change within the same county. For instance, both San Bernadino County, CA and Riverside County, CA adjoin Los Angeles County and include portions of the Los Angeles urbanized area as defined by the Census (see below) and also include public transit connections to Los Angeles, but those counties extend all the way to Arizona and Nevada, three hours distant. We obviously shouldn't be factoring in the density of Death Valley. Each of these counties also include mountain ranges and national parks, and these should no sooner be factored into density than should Lake Houston or the Addicks Reservoir.

This is why I am using Urbanized Area. The official definition from the U.S. Census Bureau is as follows:

The use of a UA allows for a more direct comparison of geographies wherein public transit has even the potential to be relevant.

That definition of Urbanized Area is something only a bureaucrat could love. I did read it! I did try. I have grasped that it is the Census Bureau's attempt to grapple with the fact that, while few people live in truly rural areas, a great many people live in small towns. I don't see that this definition was meant to furnish a contrast between the nation's big cities.

And I'm not sure what, exactly, the LA UA is, nor the Houston UA.

In the spirit of capturing reality, though: would you exclude the Santa Monica NRA from density calculations even though only 38% of it is public land?

Similarly, would you exclude Houston's little bit of parkland? What about land under easement with the Katy Prairie conservancy? What about neighborhoods like the one where I grew up, that gesture, in a degraded way, at being parks, houses set in a "parklike" setting, with their low density -- since they are as much a quaint historical oddity as an actual park, and function as green space?

Thinking of parks that no one wants reminds me of my hero, Montgomery Ward, but I'll take my tribute to "Anything You Want."

[TheNiche]

That definition of Urbanized Area is something only a bureaucrat could love. I did read it! I did try. I have grasped that it is the Census Bureau's attempt to grapple with the fact that, while few people live in truly rural areas, a great many people live in small towns. I don't see that this definition was meant to furnish a contrast between the nation's big cities.

And I'm not sure what, exactly, the LA UA is, nor the Houston UA.

In the spirit of capturing reality, though: would you exclude the Santa Monica NRA from density calculations even though only 38% of it is public land?

Similarly, would you exclude Houston's little bit of parkland? What about land under easement with the Katy Prairie conservancy? What about neighborhoods like the one where I grew up, that gesture, in a degraded way, at being parks, houses set in a "parklike" setting, with their low density -- since they are as much a quaint historical oddity as an actual park, and function as green space?

Thinking of parks that no one wants reminds me of my hero, Montgomery Ward, but I'll take my tribute to "Anything You Want."

There are maps available online. The big map on Wikipedia gives you an idea of what we're talking about, but it does take some intensive searching to find the detailed ones.

Big parks and major geographic features are excluded. Local examples include the Barker and Addicks reservoirs, including George H.W. Bush Park, even though they are surrounded by the same UA. Small parks (up to and including Memorial Park) are included in the UA. I don't think that the Katy Prairie Conservancy land is within or adjoining the Houston UA yet, but it probably will be one day; however the Attwater Prairie Chicken NWR was excluded from either the Houston UA or the Texas City UA.

Unless you're talking about five-acre ranchettes or something like that, I don't think that a park-like neighborhood would be excluded.