To be named religious thread

[memebag]

Not buyin what he's sellin? Anything in particular?

Everything in particular. The entire web site is based on an unquestionable belief in Christian dogma. If you have an open mind they whole thing unravels.

[lockmat]

How are fossils evidence of a global flood?

As far as I know, that's pretty much how fossils are made. Quick death, usually by water. Aren't these fossils located all over the earth and in places where they didn't even naturally live?

How is the grand canyon evidence of a global flood?

We see the power of great or even little amounts of damage water can do. A world wide flood could have easily formed the grand canyon.

[TJones]

.......and it is your belief that the Grand Canyon has been formed within the last 3000 years ?

[lockmat]

I'll reconcile like this. A day for us is 24 hours, a day for God is an eon. The Lord is resting now, his 7th day, this is the eon we live in, and 7 days for us collates with our calendar. Remeber, Do as he commands, not as he does. <---- Where does this come from?Again, the interpretations you have been taught are off a bit. I am no theologian, but your beliefs are those of the hardline rightwing variety. Besides, you have just contradicted yourself by using Exodus then quoting Peter. Which is it for you.

I've learned from the best theologians who know greek, hebrew and aramaic backwards and frontwards.

How are Exodus and Gensis contradictory? You'll have to explain b/c I'm not seeing it.

.......and it is your belief that the Grand Canyon has been formed within the last 3000 years ?

within the last 10,000 at least. I believe the earth is no older than that.

[memebag]

As far as I know, that's pretty much how fossils are made. Quick death, usually by water.

Nope. Where did you hear that?

Aren't these fossils located all over the earth and in places where they didn't even naturally live?

Nope. Where did you hear that?

We see the power of great or even little amounts of damage water can do. A world wide flood could have easily formed the grand canyon.

Except a global flood would have left some evidence of a global flood and it wouldn't have left deposits that look like it took millions of years to carve the Grand Canyon.

[lockmat]

I'll reconcile like this. A day for us is 24 hours, a day for God is an eon.

Where in the Bible does it say this?

[TJones]

Where in the Bible does it say this?

Where in the bible does it say the Grand Canyon was made in 10,000 years ?

[lockmat]

Where in the bible does it say the Grand Canyon was made in 10,000 years ?

You're spinning. I've provided verses. I think it's only fair to ask for the same.

I'm not claiming that the grand canyon was made in 10,000 years. God may have created it like that from day one. But the geneologies can be traced as far as they begin, and that only allows for about 4-6,000 years. I'm just saying 10,000 for a cushion.

[TJones]

You're spinning. I've provided verses. I think it's only fair to ask for the same.

I'm not claiming that the grand canyon was made in 10,000 years. God may have created it like that from day one. But the geneologies can be traced as far as they begin, and that only allows for about 4-6,000 years. I'm just saying 10,000 for a cushion.

The fact remains that you don't know for sure, so how can you be so sure that the Earth and all it's creatures were formed in our calendar 7 days ? Is it possible that God could slow down the Earth to accomodate day into night for Him? Again, you are taking everything too literal. BTW, where did the "light" come from that allowed the Lord to do his work until "night" ? We measure our days (24hours) by the sun and moon being in the sky, do we not ?

Edited August 26, 2008 by TJones

[Heights2Bastrop]

The Lord is resting now, his 7th day

TJones, with RedScare on the loose, do you really think God can rest???

There is strong evidence (proof?) of global, or near global flooding, not just once, but many times over. Guadalupe Peak is the highest point in Texas, but the peak is part of a mesa that was once an ancient shoreline, while the rest of Texas was underwater.

Because every part of the earth was under water at at least one point in time, it would make sense that sea fossils would be found on what is now dry land. Many fossils are exposed by normal erosion, so obvious sea creatures would have been found by peoples unaware of conditions millions of years back.

The only way to explain away these sea fossils was to claim a Great Flood had occurred, and that is probably how the story got started. It made perfect sense back then, but science has proved otherwise.

[TJones]

Oops ! I forgot, lockmat wanted verses: II Peter 3:8 and Psalm 90. I hate quoting scripture, because it is all up to interpretation. You can live your life the way you seem fit, but you WON'T find the real answers until you breathe your last breath, and then hope you have made the right choices that you will be held accountable for.

[lockmat]

The fact remains that you don't know for sure, so how can you be so sure that the Earth and all it's creatures were formed in our calendar 7 days ? Is it possible that God could slow down the Earth to accomodate day into night for Him? Again, you are taking everything too literal. BTW, where did the "light" come from that allowed the Lord to do his work until "night" ? We measure our days (24hours) by the sun and moon being in the sky, do we not ?

Because I believe the Bible is true and that God is not a liar, and that's what he says. And it's possible that he could have done that, but he didn't. The scripture is clear.

God does not need light to do anything. Two, he created it on the first day.

Genesis 1:3-5

3Then God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light.

4God saw that the light was good; and God separated the light from the darkness. 5God called the light day, and the darkness He called night And there was evening and there was morning, one day.

[Heights2Bastrop]

I wanted to add to my post above that there is evidence of flooding in relatively recent times of Man

[lockmat]

Oops ! I forgot, lockmat wanted verses: II Peter 3:8 and Psalm 90. I hate quoting scripture, because it is all up to interpretation. You can live your life the way you seem fit, but you WON'T find the real answers until you breathe your last breath, and then hope you have made the right choices that you will be held accountable for.

Psalm 90 - For a thousand years in Your sight Are like yesterday when it passes by. (A simile)

2 Peter 3:8 - I posted this one already. It uses the word as.

If it's all up to interpretation, why not stick to a conservative interpretation, and also compare it to other texts throughout scripture so there is consistency. There is no consistency in your interpretation.

[TJones]

Because I believe the Bible is true and that God is not a liar, and that's what he says. And it's possible that he could have done that, but he didn't. The scripture is clear.

God does not need light to do anything. Two, he created it on the first day.

Genesis 1:3-5

3Then God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light.

4God saw that the light was good; and God separated the light from the darkness. 5God called the light day, and the darkness He called night And there was evening and there was morning, one day.

That's fine, but how do we mere mortals measure a day and a night ? Where does OUR light come from ?

Edited August 26, 2008 by TJones

[lockmat]

That's fine, but how do we mere mortals measure a day and a night ? Where does OUR light come from ?

We get our light from the moon and the stars. Day 4

Then God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night, and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years; and let them be for lights in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth"; and it was so. God made the two great lights, the greater light to govern the day, and the lesser light to govern the night; He made the stars also. God placed them in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth, and to govern the day and the night, and to separate the light from the darkness; and God saw that it was good. There was evening and there was morning, a fourth day.

[TJones]

We get our light from the moon and the stars. Day 4

Then God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night, and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years; and let them be for lights in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth"; and it was so. God made the two great lights, the greater light to govern the day, and the lesser light to govern the night; He made the stars also. God placed them in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth, and to govern the day and the night, and to separate the light from the darkness; and God saw that it was good. There was evening and there was morning, a fourth day.

Thank You, NO SUN, until the fourth day, and isn't the sun how we interpret a day from a night ? God had his own light, he gave us the Sun and the Moon in order for us to be able to tell our days and nights. So, if God is working by his own light, then he obviously has his own time for days and nights.

[lockmat]

Thank You, NO SUN, until the fourth day, and isn't the sun how we interpret a day from a night ? God had his own light, he gave us the Sun and the Moon in order for us to be able to tell our days and nights. So, if God is working by his own light, then he obviously has his own time for days and nights.

I'd have to take a closer look at it, but day one still has evenening and morning. I'm pretty sure those words mean exactly what they say.

4God saw that the light was good; and God separated the light from the darkness. 5God called the light day, and the darkness He called night And there was evening and there was morning, one day.

[BryanS]

If one ioda of the Bible is untrue, the whole thing is untrue.

You got it! And the list of biblical untruths is significant...

[Orikal]

I am absolutely horrified there are people alive today who believe the bible is to be taken literally.

It honestly scares me, because these people cannot be reasoned with. Despite astoundingly overwhelming evidence that the world is much older than 10,000 years, that dinosaurs and humans did not co-exist (and Noah did not bring baby brontosaruses (sauri?) on the ark) - just to refer to the last couple of pages - these people literally shun all capacity for reason and logical analysis.

It's so scary to me because (for the most part) these are not stupid people. These individuals hold jobs, have families, and vote, and lead otherwise normal existences. But their need to explain the unexplainable has driven them off the deep end, to a world filled with utter nonsense. I mean seriously; the amount of mental gymnastics it takes to believe this nonsense takes an astounding amount of prodding. These people have been so brainwashed into believing this world means nothing, that they have forsaken any semblance of rationality, and are constantly seeking others to see "the light."

There's a reason the Dark Ages were called such.

I'm not saying there is a god. I'm not saying there's not. It's irrelevant to how I live my life and treat my fellow man. But to tell anyone that the bible, taken wholly and literally, is in any way, shape, or form, a road map to a better world, or contains any wisdom that an average human could not realize with very little life experience, is a fool. Plain and simple.

[BryanS]

I am absolutely horrified there are people alive today who believe the bible is to be taken literally.

It honestly scares me, because these people cannot be reasoned with. Despite astoundingly overwhelming evidence that the world is much older than 10,000 years, that dinosaurs and humans did not co-exist (and Noah did not bring baby brontosaruses (sauri?) on the ark) - just to refer to the last couple of pages - these people literally shun all capacity for reason and logical analysis.

It's so scary to me because (for the most part) these are not stupid people. These individuals hold jobs, have families, and vote, and lead otherwise normal existences. But their need to explain the unexplainable has driven them off the deep end, to a world filled with utter nonsense. I mean seriously; the amount of mental gymnastics it takes to believe this nonsense takes an astounding amount of prodding. These people have been so brainwashed into believing this world means nothing, that they have forsaken any semblance of rationality, and are constantly seeking others to see "the light."

There's a reason the Dark Ages were called such.

I'm not saying there is a god. I'm not saying there's not. It's irrelevant to how I live my life and treat my fellow man. But to tell anyone that the bible, taken wholly and literally, is in any way, shape, or form, a road map to a better world, or contains any wisdom that an average human could not realize with very little life experience, is a fool. Plain and simple.

Totally agree. Beware of those who claim to know the answer... Nothing is black and white in this world.

[lockmat]

You got it! And the list of biblical untruths is significant...

Care to share any?

[lockmat]

I am absolutely horrified there are people alive today who believe the bible is to be taken literally.

It honestly scares me, because these people cannot be reasoned with. Despite astoundingly overwhelming evidence that the world is much older than 10,000 years, that dinosaurs and humans did not co-exist (and Noah did not bring baby brontosaruses (sauri?) on the ark) - just to refer to the last couple of pages - these people literally shun all capacity for reason and logical analysis.

It's so scary to me because (for the most part) these are not stupid people. These individuals hold jobs, have families, and vote, and lead otherwise normal existences. But their need to explain the unexplainable has driven them off the deep end, to a world filled with utter nonsense. I mean seriously; the amount of mental gymnastics it takes to believe this nonsense takes an astounding amount of prodding.

Funny, Conservatives think many of the same things about liberals

[Orikal]

Funny, Conservatives think many of the same things about liberals

I'm sure they do.

I suppose I consider myself conservative on some issues and liberal on others. It's called finding the middle ground, or happy medium. The world is neither black or white, to use a trite phrase.

However, I can be very black and white regarding the age of the earth. It most certainly is much older than the bible professes it to be.

And I can assure you the world is a better place without the stoning of adulterers, or "sassy" teenagers, or without killing my neighbor because he used god's name in vain, or a thousand other examples where the bible is a horrendously misguided map to life.

[memebag]

Totally agree. Beware of those who claim to know the answer... Nothing is black and white in this world.

That sentence eats itself. If nothing is black and white, then even that distinction can't be black and white, therefore some things are black and white.

[lockmat]

I'm sure they do.

I suppose I consider myself conservative on some issues and liberal on others. It's called finding the middle ground, or happy medium. The world is neither black or white, to use a trite phrase.

However, I can be very black and white regarding the age of the earth. It most certainly is much older than the bible professes it to be.

And I can assure you the world is a better place without the stoning of adulterers, or "sassy" teenagers, or without killing my neighbor because he used god's name in vain, or a thousand other examples where the bible is a horrendously misguided map to life.

I'm not sure where in the Bible you're getting this from. I've seen about two citings when speaking of the Bible in this thread, other than from myself.

The Bible does not teach any of that stuff. The problem is first of all, people don't actually read it. Secondly, it's often misunderstood or misinterpreted. People would rather believe what they assume it says rather than finding out for themselves.

[memebag]

I'm not sure where in the Bible you're getting this from. I've seen about two citings when speaking of the Bible in this thread, other than from myself.

The Bible does not teach any of that stuff. The problem is first of all, people don't actually read it. Secondly, it's often misunderstood or misinterpreted. People would rather believe what they assume it says rather than finding out for themselves.

Have you read your bible? Specifically, Leviticus, chapter 20:

9 Anyone who curses his father or mother shall be put to death; since he has cursed his father or mother, he has forfeited his life.

10 If a man commits adultery with his neighbor's wife, both the adulterer and the adulteress shall be put to death.

11 If a man disgraces his father by lying with his father's wife, both the man and his stepmother shall be put to death; they have forfeited their lives.

12 If a man lies with his daughter-in-law, both of them shall be put to death; since they have committed an abhorrent deed, they have forfeited their lives.

13 If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives.

[lockmat]

Have you read your bible? Specifically, Leviticus, chapter 20:

9 Anyone who curses his father or mother shall be put to death; since he has cursed his father or mother, he has forfeited his life.

10 If a man commits adultery with his neighbor's wife, both the adulterer and the adulteress shall be put to death.

11 If a man disgraces his father by lying with his father's wife, both the man and his stepmother shall be put to death; they have forfeited their lives.

12 If a man lies with his daughter-in-law, both of them shall be put to death; since they have committed an abhorrent deed, they have forfeited their lives.

13 If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives.

You left out the first three verses:

The LORD said to Moses, "Tell the Israelites: Anyone, whether an Israelite or an alien residing in Israel, who gives any of his offspring to Molech shall be put to death. Let his fellow citizens stone him. I myself will turn against such a man and cut him off from the body of his people; for in giving his offspring to Molech, he has defiled my sanctuary and profaned my holy name. I myself will set my face against that man and his family and will cut off from their people both him and all who join him in his wanton worship of Molech. Sanctify yourselves, then, and be holy; for I, the LORD, your God, am holy. 26To me, therefore, you shall be sacred; for I, the LORD, am sacred, I, who have set you apart from the other nations to be my own.

This was a very specific instance in which God directly told them to do this. God was cleansing all that sin from the rest of his people, Israel. That's more or less what he'll do as described in Revelation when he returns for the Church. God is a just God and as stated before, the punishment for sin must be carried out unless people are to repent and be obedient. This was not God teaching people to live this way as a principle, but this instance. This is not the only time he does this. Obviously in many other scriptures, he describes a different principle way of life.

This is an example of misinterpretation and taking out of context.

[memebag]

You left out the first three verses:

The LORD said to Moses, "Tell the Israelites: Anyone, whether an Israelite or an alien residing in Israel, who gives any of his offspring to Molech shall be put to death. Let his fellow citizens stone him. I myself will turn against such a man and cut him off from the body of his people; for in giving his offspring to Molech, he has defiled my sanctuary and profaned my holy name. I myself will set my face against that man and his family and will cut off from their people both him and all who join him in his wanton worship of Molech. Sanctify yourselves, then, and be holy; for I, the LORD, your God, am holy. 26To me, therefore, you shall be sacred; for I, the LORD, am sacred, I, who have set you apart from the other nations to be my own.

This was a very specific instance in which God directly told them to do this. God was cleansing all that sin from the rest of his people, Israel. That's more or less what he'll do as described in Revelation when he returns for the Church. God is a just God and as stated before, the punishment for sin must be carried out unless people are to repent and be obedient. This was not God teaching people to live this way as a principle, but this instance. This is not the only time he does this. Obviously in many other scriptures, he describes a different principle way of life.

This is an example of misinterpretation and taking out of context.

Wait, are you saying my quote is an example of misinterpretation, or do you mean your effort to explain that YHVH said those things but didn't really mean it?

Is there a simple key to determining which of YHVH's commandments we're support to obey and which we can safely ignore? Or do we need to get clarification from you on each of them independently?

[TJones]

I'd have to take a closer look at it, but day one still has evenening and morning. I'm pretty sure those words mean exactly what they say.

4God saw that the light was good; and God separated the light from the darkness. 5God called the light day, and the darkness He called night And there was evening and there was morning, one day.

This goes back to my point of interpretation, and that "Time" for our God is much different when relative to what "time" is for us, because God is capable of stopping time altogether if he wants, and God used his own light to create the first 3 "days" during creation, then it came to him, "Hey, it would be alot easier if I stuck a Sun and a Moon into the equation here." Perhaps God had gotten most of the hard stuff out of the way the first 3 days but he didn't have the sun and the moon to determine JUST how long that time was even though he determined there was a morning and an evening, then when he created the Moon and Sun and stars, he was on the downside of the project and was able to let the natural rotation of the Earth take over what time would be, relative to our mortal growth pattern ?

Lockmat, if you expect us to look at ALL sides of the Science to determine whether it is wrong or not, then you should be expected to look at all versions of the Bible, and all interpretations of it. Your interpretation may indeed work for you and the way you lead your life, and that is prefectly fine. The Bible is a guide on how one should live as determined by one's interpretation of it. Remember, the Bible was written in a time when a pork chop might kill you, thankfully, refrigerators were invented to help prevent this from happening.

Edited August 26, 2008 by TJones