Slab On Builders Pier

[richardtb]

I have read the multiple posts that discuss the advantages of house with a crawl space foundation over a house with a slab foundation.

I did not see in those posts a discussion of slab foundation on builders pier. I am assuming from the posts that this should be just like a slab foundation

except it is less likely that the foundation is going to crack. Am I correct? Are there are any questions about the builders pier foundation that a buyer

should ask, or does one just have to rely on the reputation of the builder?

Also, I have seen a few houses from the 1950s that say "slab on builders pier." I am assuming that this means that the house was originally built on a slab and then they added builders piers later on to prevent foundation problems. For the house that I was looking (built in 1950), the documentation says "slab on builders pier" and it says that in 1995 "45 10' bell bottom piers installed." Also, the flooring was not all that straight and I could see on the ceiling of the first floor that there had been some flooding. How concerned should I be?

Thanks.

Richard

[RedScare]

Also, the flooring was not all that straight and I could see on the ceiling of the first floor that there had been some flooding. How concerned should I be?

I don't know, you tell me. Does flood damage on the CEILING concern you?

[richardtb]

My mistake. I meant "water damage" not "flood damage." The house is not in a flood area. It it possible that the water damage has nothing to do with possible foundation problems.

I don't know, you tell me. Does flood damage on the CEILING concern you?

[RedScare]

That makes much more sense. Frankly, I had never heard of a slab on builders pier before. Your description sounds like the house had severe foundation problems that were cured by installing piers after the fact. While this may be a proper fix, and it may eliminate future problems (I don't know), your statement that the floors look uneven make me wonder if the job was done right, or if the problem was not cured. I would also have an inspector look very closely at the water damage. Again, if the repairs were of sufficient quality to eliminate a future leak, you are fine. If not....

All in all, I would steer clear of foundation problems...existing or repaired...period. The entire house sits on the foundation. Whereas pier and beam foundations can be easily shimmed, slabs are not so easy to fix. In Houston's clay soils, a slab is a potential catastrophe. Good ones exist, but a repaired one is proof that something went wrong. The proliferation of slabs in Houston is not proof that they are a superior product...merely that they are less expensive to install. If you have other houses in your range to choose from, I'd keep looking.

***DISCLAIMER***

I have not seen this house, so I do not know the cause or extent of the retrofit. Hire a good inspector if you really like the house.

[ricco67]

***DISCLAIMER***

I have not seen this house, so I do not know the cause or extent of the retrofit. Hire a good inspector if you really like the house.

Spoken like a man who knows his profession.

[richardtb]

Thanks. When you say to avoid slab, should one also avoid the new constructions that say "slab on builders pier"? As far as I can see on HAR the only houses that are not built on a slab are the houses built before 1940.

That makes much more sense. Frankly, I had never heard of a slab on builders pier before. Your description sounds like the house had severe foundation problems that were cured by installing piers after the fact. While this may be a proper fix, and it may eliminate future problems (I don't know), your statement that the floors look uneven make me wonder if the job was done right, or if the problem was not cured. I would also have an inspector look very closely at the water damage. Again, if the repairs were of sufficient quality to eliminate a future leak, you are fine. If not....

All in all, I would steer clear of foundation problems...existing or repaired...period. The entire house sits on the foundation. Whereas pier and beam foundations can be easily shimmed, slabs are not so easy to fix. In Houston's clay soils, a slab is a potential catastrophe. Good ones exist, but a repaired one is proof that something went wrong. The proliferation of slabs in Houston is not proof that they are a superior product...merely that they are less expensive to install. If you have other houses in your range to choose from, I'd keep looking.

***DISCLAIMER***

I have not seen this house, so I do not know the cause or extent of the retrofit. Hire a good inspector if you really like the house.

[RedScare]

Thanks. When you say to avoid slab, should one also avoid the new constructions that say "slab on builders pier"? As far as I can see on HAR the only houses that are not built on a slab are the houses built before 1940.

Obviously, most new construction is built on slabs, so you can't say no to everything. If there is no damage, a slab is OK. It is just that pier and beam is best for our soil. Again, hire a good inspector, and listen to his advice.

[musicman]

I have read the multiple posts that discuss the advantages of house with a crawl space foundation over a house with a slab foundation.

I did not see in those posts a discussion of slab foundation on builders pier. I am assuming from the posts that this should be just like a slab foundation

except it is less likely that the foundation is going to crack. Am I correct? Are there are any questions about the builders pier foundation that a buyer

should ask, or does one just have to rely on the reputation of the builder?

Also, I have seen a few houses from the 1950s that say "slab on builders pier." I am assuming that this means that the house was originally built on a slab and then they added builders piers later on to prevent foundation problems. For the house that I was looking (built in 1950), the documentation says "slab on builders pier" and it says that in 1995 "45 10' bell bottom piers installed." Also, the flooring was not all that straight and I could see on the ceiling of the first floor that there had been some flooding. How concerned should I be?

if you're buying something built before the 70's, many times the drains are cast iron which fail over time. my parents had to replumb one portion of their house because of this. it can be expensive depending how the house is constructed. if it was on piers, upgrading the plumbing is MUCH easier and less expensive.

as for slab on piers, i know my aunt and uncle's house was built in 70 and they had piers put in during construction. my aunt's uncle (who was a contractor) recommended the piers even with the additional cost. i can tell you they have no foundation problems.

unless the piers were engineered (most pier companies don't have engineers on staff) there really is no guarantee. an officemate bought a house that had been piered and had so many moisture issues (due to unsealed concrete) that he ended up moving out of a portion of his house that had the problem and sealed the problem himself. LOTS of work.

IMO if you're concerned hire an engineer to do an evaluation on the slab.

Edited September 3, 2007 by musicman

[gwilson]

It sounds suspiciously like there were foundation issues and piers were installed after the fact.

For new construction, there isn't really much point in having slab on pier construction. The extra cost in that situation is massive and you can achieve the same results, if not better, with slab on beam on top of a well built pad that is made with the right materials (select fill) with the right moisture content and compacted correctly.

[GREASER]

pier and slab and used alot on high end houses...they were used on alot in Meyerland.

[gwilson]

pier and slab and used alot on high end houses...they were used on alot in Meyerland.

Slab on beam is very common in higher end homes, but I've never seen piers used with slab with any great regularity. In the cases that they are, it is pier, beam and slab. Generally on the top of a very compacted pad with 10' piers (18" bells) under a 36" beam with a 6" slab.

I suppose there are many different ways to skin a cat.

[richardtb]

Thanks you answered all my questions.

However, I assume that you only hire an engineer once your bid on a house has been accepted, and as part of the inspection.

So, the question, is in figuring out how much to bid for a house, how much should you take into account the fact that it is slab on builder pier foundation.

For instance, we looked at

http://search.har.com/engine/dispSearch.cf...mp;backButton=Y

The builder was Markee Construction, for which we couldn't find any information. So, I doubt they would have an engineer on staff.

So, my question is how much should I put a value on the fact that is says builder pier, versus a similar house that was built 5 years ago that just says it is a slab foundation.

My guess is that what you are saying is that one cannot give much value.

Again, thanks for your great answer.

Richard

if you're buying something built before the 70's, many times the drains are cast iron which fail over time. my parents had to replumb one portion of their house because of this. it can be expensive depending how the house is constructed. if it was on piers, upgrading the plumbing is MUCH easier and less expensive.

as for slab on piers, i know my aunt and uncle's house was built in 70 and they had piers put in during construction. my aunt's uncle (who was a contractor) recommended the piers even with the additional cost. i can tell you they have no foundation problems.

unless the piers were engineered (most pier companies don't have engineers on staff) there really is no guarantee. an officemate bought a house that had been piered and had so many moisture issues (due to unsealed concrete) that he ended up moving out of a portion of his house that had the problem and sealed the problem himself. LOTS of work.

IMO if you're concerned hire an engineer to do an evaluation on the slab.

[musicman]

Thanks you answered all my questions.

However, I assume that you only hire an engineer once your bid on a house has been accepted, and as part of the inspection.

So, the question, is in figuring out how much to bid for a house, how much should you take into account the fact that it is slab on builder pier foundation.

For instance, we looked at

http://search.har.com/engine/dispSearch.cf...mp;backButton=Y

The builder was Markee Construction, for which we couldn't find any information. So, I doubt they would have an engineer on staff.

So, my question is how much should I put a value on the fact that is says builder pier, versus a similar house that was built 5 years ago that just says it is a slab foundation.

My guess is that what you are saying is that one cannot give much value.

Again, thanks for your great answer.

Richard

i would say the engineer would be hired as part of the inspection. if i were you, since this is fake stucco (lots of problems in houston), i would also hire someone who specializes in stucco inspections/evaluations. there are just too many in houston that aren't flashed properly or have small cracks which results in water behind the walls, leading to rot and mold. you can probably walk around it yourself and if you see cracks, even small ones, i'd stay clear immediately. builders use it because it is cheap which maximizes their profit.

IMO i'm not sure your bid (piered vs. not) would be that much different when you're looking at a house that is 750k. this neighborhood ALWAYS amazes me at what some of the houses go for but with the market as it is....i'm pretty sure the price will drop.

BTW, I find it odd that you can't find the builder, yet it is supposedly a new house that hasn't been lived in yet. this in itself isn't a positive sign IMO.

EDIT: not sure if this is the same company but...

Markee Construction, Inc.

Builder No. 32302 311 West 5th StreetSuite 902

Austin, TX 78701

5124809312 Mark Schuh

Edited September 6, 2007 by musicman

[gwilson]

If you want to locate the building, you can call the GHBA (most builders in Houston are affiliated with them, even though I have chosen not to). The other organization is the TRCC ( http://www.trcc.state.tx.us/ ). All builders in Texas are required to register with TRCC and be approved by them. So theoretically, if they are still in business, they must be registered with TRCC.

If you intend on making an offer on the home, make sure there is a clause in the contract that your agreement to purchase the home is dependent upon independent inspection by an inspector and engineer of your choosing. That way if it fails, they can't hold you liable.

I can put you in touch with my engineer if you need one.

[richardtb]

Thanks. I found the builder with the link, although it was not all that informative. This is what it said:

Number of Homes Registered:

0

Number of Inspection Requests with

construction defect found:

0

Number of Inspection Requests with

constuction defect(s) not found: 0

Number of Inspection Requests Withdrawn: 0

The recommendation for an engineer would be helpful.

If you want to locate the building, you can call the GHBA (most builders in Houston are affiliated with them, even though I have chosen not to). The other organization is the TRCC ( http://www.trcc.state.tx.us/ ). All builders in Texas are required to register with TRCC and be approved by them. So theoretically, if they are still in business, they must be registered with TRCC.

If you intend on making an offer on the home, make sure there is a clause in the contract that your agreement to purchase the home is dependent upon independent inspection by an inspector and engineer of your choosing. That way if it fails, they can't hold you liable.

I can put you in touch with my engineer if you need one.

[richardtb]

Again, thank you very much for a very helpful answer. I was also worried about the stucco.

Yes, I had found that builders' address in Austin, but I thought that given that it was in a different town it was a different builder, but I wrong (another poster give a link to find all builders and got the same information that you provided).

About the excessive price, I agree, but there seem to be people willing to pay these prices.

For instance, the house on 2034 Dryden, 2216 sq feet (but a large lot: 8613 sq feet) sold for the asking price 749K.

i would say the engineer would be hired as part of the inspection. if i were you, since this is fake stucco (lots of problems in houston), i would also hire someone who specializes in stucco inspections/evaluations. there are just too many in houston that aren't flashed properly or have small cracks which results in water behind the walls, leading to rot and mold. you can probably walk around it yourself and if you see cracks, even small ones, i'd stay clear immediately. builders use it because it is cheap which maximizes their profit.

IMO i'm not sure your bid (piered vs. not) would be that much different when you're looking at a house that is 750k. this neighborhood ALWAYS amazes me at what some of the houses go for but with the market as it is....i'm pretty sure the price will drop.

BTW, I find it odd that you can't find the builder, yet it is supposedly a new house that hasn't been lived in yet. this in itself isn't a positive sign IMO.

EDIT: not sure if this is the same company but...

Markee Construction, Inc.

Builder No. 32302 311 West 5th StreetSuite 902

Austin, TX 78701

5124809312 Mark Schuh

[gwilson]

Again, thank you very much for a very helpful answer. I was also worried about the stucco.

Yes, I had found that builders' address in Austin, but I thought that given that it was in a different town it was a different builder, but I wrong (another poster give a link to find all builders and got the same information that you provided).

About the excessive price, I agree, but there seem to be people willing to pay these prices.

For instance, the house on 2034 Dryden, 2216 sq feet (but a large lot: 8613 sq feet) sold for the asking price 749K.

One thing I've noticed as I built homes for people (large luxury customs) is that people will pay for the things they want, in most cases regardless of price. Excess is relative I suppose. If you want a custom made stained glass window in your wine room, go for it.

Glad I could help.

Edited September 7, 2007 by gwilson