mfastx

Lol, last couple of pages are hilarious. 

But yea, people have a right to complain whenever the final product is 100% worse than the rendering. 

Damn, I actually really like this idea if HSR doesn't get to downtown.  Light rail from NW Mall to downtown would take too long, so I like heavy rail there.  And I've always thought heavy rail should go all the way out Westheimer.  Also nice job of connecting Hobby to downtown without overlapping the existing light rail too much. 

Regarding "decisions" there are no decisions regarding real intermodal facilities (a METRO facility) which is what I have been discussing in response to another post. Metro will almost certainly need to plan to have at least some sort of intermodal site for LRT to HSR similar to what they would have to have at Wheeler station for commuter rail and light rail also.  Right now Metro has no plans to build an intermodal (other than bus to rail or car to bus) station anywhere that I can tell and they dont have real plans even to build commuter rail to Burnett Station.

I agree it's a failure of the region to not get everyone on the same page here, METRO has been strangely aloof lately regarding their light rail plans or big picture stuff.

My point was merely that since a private company is going to have a terminal at NW Mall, and since this location could likely also serve the same western commuter routes (and indeed Metro indicated stops at the NW transit center on their early maps before continuing to Burnett), and also would be on top of a the junction of two light rail lines, in addition to the highway access, and the site size, etc that going forward this would be a decent site for Houston's major intermodal facility and arguably better than the Hardy Yards site.

If everything you say is going to happen happens, then sure it won't be an awful site. It's just that the likelyhood of all of that happening anytime soon is extremely low, and again, it's obvious that as things stand now the NW mall site is significantly less attractive than a downtown site, and this decision was made purely on the financial side. Downtown already has all of those things you're hoping will eventually come to NW Mall.

If TCR had found it feasible (and actually maybe they would have if Metro had actually built a large intermodal facility at Burnett) to locate their terminal at Hardy Yards, my analysis would be that obviously Hardy Yards is better since thats where HSR is located.

Again it's purely a cost thing, they'd likely have to grade separate it the majority of the way through to downtown from NW Mall, as the UP ROW is very slim. Grade separating HSR through an urban area is likely approaching a billion dollars per mile, as well as purchasing necessary real estate downtown. As things stand now, both Hardy Yard and NW mall don't have anything on the specific site, but Hardy Yard is directly on an existing light rail line and is much closer to a major employment center, as well as the majority of other destinations in Houston.

Oh and BTW, it doesn't matter if NW mall is torn down or not, there's still nothing there and it's not really close to anything except Uptown, and hell, it isn't even much closer to Uptown than Burnett.  NW Mall is 4 miles from the Galleria and Burnett is 6.  Oh and to get there from NW mall you have to take 610 south, what a glorious drive that always is on a weekday. 

Burnett is not adjacent to any highway. It is NEAR the ones you mention, but in most cases they are a couple blocks away, or "across the bayou" and in all cases do not have adequate access from the site of Burnett and no extra infrastructure like feeder roads to speak of.

 

Yes I have obviously looked at the aerials of the site.  NW Mall is a bigger site, it is currently 52 acres or so I think and used to be 65 or something before a lot of it became highway...because, well, the highway is running right there through the property now. Hardy Yards is/was 45 acres I think? Comparable, but smaller, and with far less developable land in the area.  The entire site will not be used at either location, IMO, but there is more room and flexibility to handle all modes (important for an intermodal).  As I mentioned, NW Mall is also on the Union Pacific line, so Burnett station has no advantage there either.

The difference between Burnett and NW mall from a highway access standpoint is negligible.  Neither sit right on a feeder road with direct access and are near freeway interchanges which usually aren't the best for actually accessing a freeway, but the nearby freeways are generally easily accessible.

And I don't think the differences in size really matter, there is plenty of room for everything you mentioned at the Burnett site.

I personally spoke with Robert Eckels about this, and it was purely a financial decision.  The argument he made wasn't that it was a better site, he acknowledged that ideally you'd like to get all the way downtown, but the NW mall site is just more realistic from a financial and NIMBY standpoint.  I bet they saved at least a billion dollars by not having to grade separate the HSR to get all the way downtown.  

And Huge is right, they want to recover their investment.  They are not building this line as a public service, they are doing it to make money, as an investment.  Going all the way downtown significantly increases the required return for it to be profitable within a reasonable amount of time. 

Northwest Mall is a better intermodal site than Burnett Station in every way except linear distance to downtown.

 

NW Mall is more convenient to the energy corridor, more convenient to uptown, more convenient to Greenway Plaza, and arguably just as convenient to the northern suburbs considering you can just jump on the North Loop from NW Mall whereas getting on the North Freeway from Burnett, Im not sure how easy that is.

I have to disagree here.  NW mall is more convenient to Energy Corridor and Uptown, but not to Greenway Plaza and I'd much rather take 59 to Hardy from downtown to northern suburbs than schlep along 610 loop to get to 45/Hardy. 

 

 

There is an already existing bus and transit center in the area that could be relocated to the site

 

It has better freeway access to make connections to 290, I10, and 610 to get to far more destinations whereas Burnett is not directly adjacent to a freeway at all and the ones it is closest to are in very complicated alignments near downtown, with no feeder roads, and adjacent to waterways.

And there is a brand new bus and transit center at Burnett that doesn't need any relocation.  Oh and it's also directly on a central light rail line with access to downtown, midtown, museum district, Rice, TMC, NRG park, UH and TSU.  And Burnett is adjacent to I10, 45 and 59, not sure what you're talking about.  

 

 

NW mall would sit on TWO light rail routes (Inner Katy and Uptown would likely be routed to terminate here if/when built) instead of only being on the red line.

The site is also directly adjacent to freight rail tracks which connect to the lines that Amtrak already uses at a distance of only about 1 mile from the route Amrtrak already uses.

You really think light rail will get built in this town anytime soon?  As long as METRO is paying 25% of it's funds towards building suburban roads, building rail will be tough.  Oh and the Uptown line is now BRT, not light rail, which will have lower ridership.  

Amtrak trains could easily route to the Burnett location, it is right on top of a UP mainline.  C'mon man, have you even looked at a satellite view of Burnett? 

 

 

The site is also bigger, meaning that more land is available for parking, garages, car rental centers, all those things that would be expected to move into the area plus larger available land for development than the Hardy Yards site, plus much larger adjacent industrial areas which would likely be redeveloped wheras Hardy Yards is penned in by the bayous/I10 to the southwest and residential neighborhood to the north.

In addition to all this....there is actually a company that wants to locate its high speed rail terminal at NW Mall already.

Doesn't look bigger to me, I don't know how much land they've bought.  Maybe if they tear down the mall entirely. Burnett areas has plenty of room for all that stuff. Hardy has plenty of industrial areas around it, have you even been there? 

Yes, TCR wants NW mall location because it's significantly cheaper, this has been already established.  They want short term profits, I am thinking long term. 

The FRA report (https://www.fra.dot.gov/eLib/Details/L17203) is certainly a thick read, but I would recommend at least skimming it if you're intested in this project.

 

What I can gather from it, TCR had downtown as their goal, but needed to study if the costs of continuing into downtown were worth it compared to the increased revenue.  From it being eliminated in level 1 screening, they used "the Project’s purpose and need, alignment objectives and design guidelines as screening criteria."  

 

The two downtown alternatives failed on Economic criteria and Environmental criteria

 

 

The discussion of why is on page 22 of the report.  

Thanks, apologies for the laziness should have read the report before commenting. 

It looks like this was an internal analysis done by TCR and they themselves made the decision that it would be too costly and a negative return on their investment if they came all the way downtown, which is what most of us thought would happen in the first place. 

http://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/transportation/article/Planned-high-speed-rail-line-won-t-come-downtown-6627877.php

Like I said above, looks like an internal analysis/decision and not the feds not allowing it. 

If they had tons of money to spare, they'd do it. 

 

Why are we all getting hung up on this? The Northwest Mall site is not the mall itself. Almost certainly the mall will be flattened in the process or at least highly renovated. The old Foley's building will probably get demolished either way, and could provide an impetus to revive that part of town. Besides, even if it wasn't completely demolished, a renovated transit-oriented mall could provide a decent terminal, with places to eat, wait, or buy sundries at. That's what happens at all these actual transit/train stations in reality you guys claim to lionize.

 

And now you've got some Dallasite deliberately trying to troll you guys by taunting you that it's not downtown, and you're taking the bait.

That's all speculation, I doubt any of that would be paid for by TCR.  Maybe another developer might come in and do that, I hope so. 

You do know that TCR wanted to go downtown but the Fed's nixed it, right?

What's your source on this?  I read that they studied it and basically determined it was too expensive. 

There is no question that a line of 1/2 or 1/4 the length would have lower ridership. Ridership is driven by jobs, residences, and other destinations within walking distance of the stations and by connections to bus routes. A line that didn't reach the TMC or Reliant would have dramatically fewer of these. Dryden/TMC is the highest ridership station in the system.

I misunderstood.  I thought you were saying that if the red line was exactly the same except that it was tunneled in downtown and/or elevated in the TMC ridership would be lower, not if the line only went from one end of downtown to the other. 

I feel like the problem that most people have with the NW mall site is not necessarily that it isn't in downtown, but that it isn't anywhere really.  It's in a very undesirable area.  Who likes that area? 

Edit: to clarify, if the station was in uptown or something people wouldn't whine about it not being downtown.. because at least the station is in a destination area.  

No one is taking HSR to Houston to get to NW mall.  

At least some people's final destination would have been downtown, or uptown, or wherever.  Literally 0% of people taking HSR are wanting to get to NW mall. 

Houston's "tunnel system" is various basements, connected by slender tunnels built under the streets.  It's also only open during Business Hours, 5 days a week.  Real subways run through purpose-built tunnels. 

 

To go from the tunnel to the train, walk upstairs.  (Or take an escalator.)  Then go outside.  

I understand what Houston's tunnel system is.  Each station would have an exit directly to the street as well as to any nearby tunnels.  The actual train tunnels would be below the pedestrian tunnels.  The mezzanine levels of the subway stations above the platforms would be at the same level as the tunnels. 

Many Houstonians don't like to sweat, so if they can avoid going outside, they will.  

Too bad it ended up being 290, definitely not as central or desirable a location as downtown, but you get what you pay for I guess.  Ideally, you'd want one central station preferably around Burnett Plaza area with light rail, bus, Amtrak and intercity bus connections, with plenty of space for parking garages and rental car/taxi areas.  Coordinating all of that would delay the project like 10 years so I can see why they didn't even try that. 

I laughed at "anchored by Northwest Mall."  Yeah, that's a signature property right there.  Lol. 

Feeder roads aren't nice to look at, but that can be easily remedied by adding dense foliage between the freeway and the feeder.  

I doubt there'd be "no question" that if it was tunneled or elevated for a short stretch there'd be fewer riders, in most cases grade separation increases ridership.  Especially if it were integrated with the downtown tunnel system. 

Man if Houston could finally do something with that eyesore that'd be incredible. 

I think it would be cool to have the light rail below ground in downtown - the stations could be in the tunnel system directly, and they could be air conditioned too.

When the light rail was first being proposed, were there any alternatives with grade separation in downtown or the med center?  I'm curious how much they saved by just building at grade.

Makes too much sense, so of course it didn't happen. 

In the 80s I believe that there were two proposals for underground rail downtown, one heavy rail which was voted down, and one light rail which was approved but Bob Lanier was elected after he promised to kill the light rail proposal.  

The original METRO line had to be built with local funds after federal funding was blocked, so they didn't have enough money to incorporate it in the existing tunnel system downtown. 

I know they did cut and cover in DC and people didn't like it.  But I don't think that should stop anyone from constructing a subway if the only viable method is cut and cover. 

I really like how the sidewalk extends all the way to the curb.  Looks inviting and spacious. 

Hey, at least there's something there and not a parking lot. 

There's no way that gets built here.  No way.  If this somehow gets off the ground, I'd be shocked if it looks anything like that. 

BUT, in the unlikely event that it DOES get built, it'd be AWESOME.  Holy cow. 

Holy cow that's ugly.  Add another one to the list that turned out far worse than the latest rendering. 

itshappening.gif 

This is a neat idea, it'd just be insanely expensive, like maglev. 

What probably won't get built for like 20 years?

The California High Speed Rail.  And that's optimistic, there's a ton of NIMBY pushback and opposition as always unfortunately. 

And I agree with everything else you said, a downtown transit center combining Amtrak, Greyhound, light rail and a METRO bus center would be really cool and a great opportunity to create a signature structure identifiable to Houston. 

Unfortunately there's just no money for something like that with METRO having to make those damn mobility payments.  And if METRO can't fund it, then who would? 

Yea unfortunately since the HSR guys don't even wanna bring it to downtown there really isn't a chance for something like this.  Unless you wanna build all of this for a three times a week Amtrak train.  

But on the flip side that probably won't get built for like 20 years at least, too expensive.