rantanamo

This is the bought out remnants of CART. Most of the old CART teams are in the IRL now. Wish Dallas had gotten a race, but I'll just have to get down to H-town for my favorite racing circuit. OK, second favorite, but there's zero chance of Texas getting a MotoGP race.

You guys have interesting discussions on what cities are insecure and their own images of themselves.

No, FW is the fastest growing city in the U.S. over 500,000. It is seeing suburban like growth rates(almost unheard of for a large city to see such a growth rate). There is a ton of land on the north side, as well as more thanks to annexation. Fort Worth is not expected to catch Dallas, though it is entirely possible.

for city proper, probably. Dallas doesn't have near the amount of open land to keep up in its city proper. Dallas is growing well in the inner city, but that never could keep up with suburban type growth. Its mostly a pride thing, but isn't that big of a deal. I'd rather see Dallas on its current path of becoming a Boston or Toronto type city than annexing a ton of land and growing that way. We still don't know the affect a possible inland port, or the exponential discovery of south Dallas might have. I'd bet on San Antonio as there's nothing really to stop its city proper for a while.

Don't worry about Houston, it has always been a forward thinking city. Dallas on the other hand has gotten caught up in its own crap so much that it has not looked forward at times. Thankfully that began to change in the 90s though there are plenty of lapses.

Fort Worth proper might catch it again by next census.

apparently ZOM and other residential developers are looking serious at downtown. They site the shrinking uptown land and soaring prices. Great job with zoning and attracting so much to Uptown is leading to a downtown boom. I think most thought East Dallas would boom more first before downtown really kicked it up. Looks like downtown will be the next Uptown.

I have found that many of the Dallasites I've met have a complex about H-Town, not the other way around. Again, maybe I'm in the wrong place at the wrong time but that's what I have experienced.

Interesting conclusion

The part of town its being built in has the highest land prices in the state and is on the southern end of the Platinum Corridor, which is the largest collection of the upper-middle class to wealthy in the state. Basically you have mcmansions, mansions, estates, luxury shopping and highrises, 4 and 5 star hotels for about 30 miles due north along Preston and the Dallas North Tollway.

Its not about marketing. Its about where the best deal would happen. Arlington offered to pay half. Dallas offered about 1/3 because they were maxed out. It was almost a take it or leave it as Dallas had more important projects out there. In the opinion of many, DART, convention center and downtown development, TOD and other urban TIF zones, luring companies, Trinity River Parks and bridges and basic infrastructure were more important than the revenue from such a stadium. Irving would tend to agree with Dallas and offered Jerry a similar deal as Texas Stadium has never helped them all that much. The Dallas and Irving sites were 100x better locations for all involved. Jerry Jones ended any speculation of a name change when the deal was announced the day after the Dallas deadline. He stated that the Dallas Cowboys is a worldwide brand. Arlington Cowboys might as well be starting from scratch with the world wondering what happened to the Dallas Cowboys and where the heck is Arlington. Texas Rangers have always been the Texas Rangers. They were in Arlington before Ameriquest when Arlington was a much smaller town. As I said before, if Anaheim changed back to a more recognizeable name, then Arlington would end up doing the same. Why waste 5 years?

What must be understood in comparison to Houston is the competitiveness there is in DFW. If a Fortune 500, stadium or anything else huge moves to Houston, the choices of which municipality is limited compared to an LA, SF or DFW. When a company looks at DFW there is Fort Worth, Las Colinas, Flower Mound, Plano, Frisco, Richardson, Westlake, Allen, Addison, Grapevine, and Far North Dallas that currently compete for anything and everything that comes to the metroplex. Everyone is after tax relief for their taxpayers through corporate and infrastructural taxation. There are very few metroplex cities that are satisfied with just being quiet bedroom communities. Its a blood bath.

Arlington has the Cowboys, Rangers, Six Flags and Hurricane Harbor. In exchange for shelling out these tax incentives they have very poor roads, poor freeway access, a relatively low amount of retail for a city of its size and absolutely no public transit. No buses, no trains, no shuttles, no nothing. With the Cowboys Stadium on their tax rolls they have officially maxed out their taxing ability. This issue was not about markets. Its about money. Houston stadiums are in Houston because that would make the most money. Houston is the undisputed center, population wise and geographically of Houston metro, while DFW is much more spread out, and larger in population. The geographical center is DFW Airport. If the location was based on market, the Las Colinas site would be chosen, as it it the absolute population center of the metroplex(though the income center is much farther east. At the same time, when going to a Rangers game, the vast majority of the traffic is coming fromt he north and the east. Where Irving won is to get the cost burden of Texas Stadium off of their backs. Now that land is free to redevelop. Especially with DART LRT coming with a station there. They can build a much more lucrative TOD there. There was a nice article of who wins, Irving or Arlington. Major case for Irving winning big time. Dallas and FW are the really big winners. FW from the fact that this gets built in their county, so they get the property taxes, some of the visitors recreational spending, and some people in their hotels. Dallas is the biggest winner of them all. The stadium is 15 minutes from downtown. For any big event like a Superbowl that will bring in high dollar visitors, Dallas wins. Dallas is the place with the 4 and 5 star hotels. Dallas is the place with the most visitor type entertainment. Dallas is the place with the serious shopping. Dallas gets all of this and doesn't have to pay a dime for it. Dallas' loss may be in the fact that they won't get a Victory like development around a downtown stadium. This was possible in Dallas because there are actual options besides driving for large numbers of patrons, so huge lots aren't necessary. But for no money spent Dallas is coming out with a sweet deal.

There is a wait and see factor with this still. The stadium is scheduled to break ground next late spring, but there may be a snag with eminent domain. For whatever reason they decided to tear down a large residential area rather than use the huge empty lots in the entertainment area. This could prove costly if many homeowners fight the deal being offered for their land. There are currently cases in the supreme court with land owners vs public/private partnership eminent domain. Eminent domain is supposed to be for public projects only, so such partnerships using the power may be found unconstitutional. The Cowboys oculd actually pull out of the contract if their conditions aren't met. Should be very interesting, but chances are it goes to the horrible location.

If want to see the Dallas that Dallasites know, I'd suggest streets like:

Gaston, Swiss Ave, Preston Rd(from its origin, all the way up to Plano), NW Highway, Royal, Walnut Hill, Forest Lane. Even Garland Rd. Even try the Dallas North Tollway from its street origin in Uptown and stop off at the numerous(Dallas leads the state in millionaires and billionaires) beautiful mansion communities now expensive condo towers going up, and super luxury townhome areas along Turtle Creek all the way up into Frisco to the Starwoods and Stonebriars of the world.. That's the Platinum Corridor. Its a different kind of newness. A very expensive and shiny newness. Just imagine continuous wealth for almost 30 miles. I'd imagine its responsible for the image of Dallas newness.

yes, if you're talking about everything located north of I635. no, for everything south ofI635. not pretty at all

That's a joke, right. The wealthiest areas in this part of the country are between downtown and 635. Its not as new as Far North Dallas, but there is a ton of new and it is just as nice, if not nicer. You could say that for I-30 though.

I've never known the Angels as Los Angeles, but rather Anaheim. The same for the Raiders. No one calls them the San Fransisco Raiders. Greenbay Wisconsin only has 93,000 people, with no name recognition problems there either.

I've always known the Texas Rangers as the Arlington Rangers. And for a city (yes, city) of over 300,000 people, I don't see getting name recognition being an issue.

Everyone already knows where the Cowboys are from, now they'll just know who footed the bill: Arlington.

As for the Angels, you must be much younger than I. I'm only 27 and the Angels were the California Angels for most of my life. Correct me if I'm wrong, but they picked up the Anaheim between 5 and 10 years ago. Maybe even more recent than that. I believe they changed when they last changed unis, from the black and read "CA" caps, to the current red unis. Before they were the California Angels, they were the Los Angeles Angels. Now, once again, they are officially the Los Angeles Angels with the stupid "of Anaheim" as agreed upon by management. Just watch a ballgame. They were labeled as ANA the last few years. Now they are back to the original LAA.

Really, Rant? Damn, that's horrible. The last time I was in Arlington and toured the Ameriquest Field area, the Rangers game had ended 90 min early and traffic was STILL being directed by cops. In other words, traffic is bad enough along I-30. I can't imagine how bad it would be with 25,000 more fans (assuming a sellout) and the facility located even further away from the main E-W thoroughfare in the area.

They would've come out better tearing down Texas Stadium, building the new stadium on that site and playing at the Cotton Bowl (ala the Bears in Champaign, IL) during the three years it would take to construct the new stadium.

If you think the site itself is bad, wait until you see the site plan itself. At least Reliant is close to the dome and rail. This site is currently a bunch of residential neighborhoods and small businesses that they have to either buy out or use emminent domain to move. They might run into trouble with proving this is a proper use in lieu of recent cases. I would simply laugh if the stadium got caught up in legal ranglings as there were simply better sites.

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dw...0510met_map.pdf

Fair Park or the expensive Cedars site were much better for this venue. Even the proposed Las Colinas site was outstanding compared to this. I'm sure the stadium itself will be fantastic. Possibly the world's best. Even with all of these road improvements and new ramps on I-30(who cares, this thing is a decent distance from I-30), the location and site plan is blah. Highly disappointing.

American Airlines is supposed to have Victory by now....its very slow to happen adn due to problems with Hillwood Corp, it might not happen.

Might not happen? Really?

Developers detail plans for Victory (The Dallas Morning News) By Steve Brown, The Dallas Morning News

Knight Ridder/Tribune Business News

May 11--Victory developers gave a peek at the future on Tuesday and detailed almost $450 million in projects under way at the site near downtown Dallas.

Along with the W Dallas Victory Hotel & Residences, by next summer Victory will include the Terrace, a seven-story condominium building; the 125-unit Vista apartments; and Victory Plaza, two retail and office buildings on the south side of American Airlines Center.

The Icon, a 28-story apartment tower, will open in 2007.

The buildings are in an area that's now been dubbed Victory Park. "We are building a neighborhood," Victory developer Ross Perot Jr. said. "We really announced our concept nine years ago.

"That vision is now becoming very true."

Since Mr. Perot and his Hillwood development firm proposed the arena and a surrounding development in 1996, the project has gone through a lot of changes.

A partnership with a New York developer to build a regional shopping center fell through. And Victory has shifted some of its emphasis from office to residential.

Current plans call for more than 4,000 residences and a million square feet of retail space.

The development program "doesn't require any city assistance," said Dallas businessman Tom Hicks, one of the Victory partners. "It's a real win for Dallas."

Mr. Perot and Mr. Hicks are building Victory with several partners. Fairfield Development of Grand Prairie is building the Terrace and the Vista. Houston-based Hanover Co. will build the Icon tower.

"We are bringing in developers from all over the country," Mr. Perot said. "To build 12 million square feet, you can't do that by yourself."

The next phase of Victory will include an office tower and a 25-story condo high-rise near the West End.

A 45-story office and condo tower next to the W Hotel will add another 300,000 square feet of offices and 130 residential units.

WHAT'S GOING UP

UNDER WAY:

--W Dallas Victory Hotel & Residences, a 33-story building with 144 condominiums, 251 hotel rooms and 42,500 square feet of retail space. Opens May 2006.

--The Terrace, a seven-story, 95-unit condominium building with 24,000 square feet of retail space. Opens summer 2006.

--The Vista, a 125-unit apartment building with 25,000 square feet of retail space. Opens summer 2006.

STARTING SOON:

--Victory Plaza, 120,000 square feet of office space and 73,000 square feet of retail space on the south plaza of American Airlines Center. Opens May 2006.

--The Icon, a 28-story apartment tower with 252 residential units and 10,000 square feet of retail space. Opens in 2007.

STILL TO COME:

--One Victory Tower, a 45-story, 300,000-square-foot office building and 130-unit residential tower with 85,000 square feet of retail space. To open in 2008.

--2200 Victory Avenue, a 300,000-square-foot office tower with 20,000 square feet of retail space. No date set.

--Residential Tower J, a 25-story, 151-unit residential building. No date set.

Source: Hillwood Online

Victory One(new tallest building in Uptown at 600ft)

The Icon (announced groundbreaking for August)

W Hotel and Victory Residences(2 towers u/c with the Terrace and Vista site being dug behind it)

If Victory isn't going to happen, they'd better stop and tear down the construction and fill some holes up.

As for the Cowboys, that sorry plan they put up last week has killed any chance of development around the stadium. The stadium will be even further away from I-30 than Ameriquest(meaning not even close to Six Flags or convention center), and is totally surrounded by huge parking lots. Its almost unnecessary where it will be built. Jerry is killing his superbowl chances with no transit to that stadium, and a bad location. Other franchises actually got Superbowl promises. Jerry still doesn't have one and even gave up his possible spot to the Jets. A lot of us wish Dallas could have found a way to deal, as the development actually had a shot in the Cedars or Fair Park. There were simply other issues at stake at the time and Dallas didn't have the money to give. That freed money will make a great difference in future projects.

No offense to Arlington, but I don't think any moajor pro sports franchise can market themselves with a suburban name. Most people don't know where Arlington is. Even Anaheim, a more known and larger city in Cali went back to Los Angeles Angels after a few years as Anaheim for marketing purposes.

As for Ameriquest, I think the problem with that place was wrong owners at the wrong time. Just compare Ameriquest to his new AA park in Frisco. One is surrounded by a park and a bunch of lots, while the other is surrounded by a new urbanist hood, new convention center, hockey arena, large hotel and is very pedestrian friendly. When the Rangers lease is nearing its end in 15 years, if Hicks is still the owner, Dallas should really make a run at the stadium(assuming there is room near or in downtown), as Hicks really seems to know his stuff when it comes to stadium developments.

My bad. Not here for a flame war. Totally apologize.

Didn't say you were. Just explaining why some areas are a little lacking in maintenance. If someone didn't know, they'd just assume it was neglect.

LOL. of course it looked dirty. It was a brownfield before the AAC and Victory showed up. With today's announcement, it won't be that way next summer. If you mean around stemmons, that is being rezoned as part of the Trinity Project.

Bash those freeways all you want, but Dallas will have the best looking freeways in the country after this round of construction. I-30 in Oak Cliff is being, Central Expresswayized. Project Pegasus and the TRP bridges will give Stemmons and the remaining downtown freeways a Central Expressway on steroids type makeover as well. Not to mention deck parks for Woodall and I-30.

Overall, Uptown is still young and will have even an bigger construction year in 2006, and probably 2007. Victory and the West Village are really just picking up steam. Thankfully this is spreading to downtown and hopefully to the Industrial Blvd area once zoning is finalized.

Keeps great service for residents and keeps the hotel size smaller and more specialized. The Mansion on Turtle Creek has done a great job with this. They have sort of a resort though, with 3 towers around the hotel. The fourth is supposed to go up soon.

So we have Azure, W Hotel, Mondrian, 1407 Main u/c. Then 7-11, Galleria residentail, Far North Dallas residential, Cresta Bella, Turtle Creek retirement tower(don't know the name), Stoneleigh residential, Icon, Victory One, St. Annes and Ritz-Carlton all scheduled to break ground in 2005. Add to that, the possibility of the Convention Center Hotel being announced, possible CityLights residential tower, the additional 4 or 5 towers at Arts Plaza as well as two or three at Park Lane Place. All of this in addtion to the swaths of townhomes in Uptown, Oaklawn and East Dallas, and lower than 10 story projects like Uptown I, the two new West Village buildings, or that new Drexel project, then throw in the swath of conversions like Gulf States, TOD like City Lights, the Lake Highland TC and Park Lane Place, the signature bridges, great looking I-30 makeover in Oak Cliff, and the true mansion boom in north Dallas and 2005-2006 is probably unprecedented for Dallas. Maybe the office space is less than the 80s, but the sheer numbers of projects and total floor space probably makes this one of Dallas' biggest booms ever. I often find myself looking with envy at other sunbelt city booms. But to type it out or look at a SSP construction thread all in one page, Dallas is doing a darn lot of projects. Just the raw number of towers that will go up in the next two years is exciting. To say Dallas will look different in 2010 is no longer a dream.

If you mean within the loop, 1407 main is already underway, and is in the heart of downtown.

Addison Airport restricts everything around it as well. That's why Platinum Corridor Highrises are shorter. Thank goodness the stuff isn't tall though. There's already enough of a glut up there. That office space needs to be downtown or Uptown, not lining the Dallas North Tollway

Some points:

- State-Thomas is the Uptown neighborhood everyone is referring to that recieved the TIF in the late 80s. Its what many think of when they think Uptown Dallas.

- Uptown consists of main areas: Lo-Mac(Crescent area), Victory, State-Thomas, McKinney Ave Corridor, Quadrangle/gallery area and West Village area. Each have sizeable populations and actually compete against each other. Yes, Uptown became Uptown again in the 80s. The name however dates back to Freeman's Uptown North Dallas. in 1873.

Uptown's Competition

- Uptown has a ton of competition in the metroplex. Consider that: Knox Park has probably 3 or 4 times as many townhomes as Uptown in a similar sized area as is building more of them. Bryan Place is quickly catching up as well.

- Turtle Creek has more residential high rises than Uptown. Las Colinas has one, Far North Dallas has 2, and Preston Center has 4. Even Oak Cliff is renovating one. Uptown currently has 2 open residential high rises, but will have 4 by April and several by 2007. Their biggest competition is Downtown and Turtle Creek. And that is a ton of competition. Especially considering downtown is in a conversion boom and even broke ground on a new tower yesterday.

- Urban type villages full of Post and Gables type properties like the West Village State-Thomas are all over the metroplex. Mockingbird Station, Bryan Place, Farmers Market, Legacy Town Center, Addison Square East Side Village, now Las Colinas, Southlake Town Center, Frisco Square, Austin Ranch and Sundance are all direct competitiors, marketing to the same demographics. Uptown simply has beat them to the punch and does it better.

- Even newcomers will provide the next competition. Look out for The Cedars, Park Lane Place, Farmer's Branch Town Center and the fill-out of Las Colinas.

competition is not a problem at all

- Lots of new hotels in Dallas were mentioned. This is working because these aren't huge 1,000 room hotels. They are "only in Dallas" or "only one in Texas" type boutiques with much fewer rooms. In most cases they are coupled with residences. The Mansion on Turtle Creek is smaller and has 3 residential towers with another hoping to break ground soon. The Ritz-Carlton will have like 100 rooms with 70 residences. The ZaZa is very small with condos attached. The Stoneleigh is already pretty small and will add residential. The W have a small unique portion of hotel with residential on top and another attached tower. These are all niche hotels as opposed to the behemoths downtown like the Hyatt Reunion and Adam's Mark. That's why many here fear the 1200 room behemoth the City wants to attach to the convention center. Nooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 4 smaller attached boutiques with incredible service would work much better.

Anyways, back to the Houston stuff. Just wanted to clear that all up.

We went to the Uptown area. Seemed very cramped and compacted. The worst part of this area was a new part called West Village. It is nothing but a huge 8 or 9 level parking garage surrounded by a ring of faux styled, mixed use three to five story buildings with retail and restaurants on the ground floors and offices and residential above. The circulation for pedestrians and vehicles was poor at best. Tiny streets packed with cars barely moving and narrow sidewalks with dangerous interaction with the parking garage. Architecture was junk. We ate at a Noodle place. Very trendy interior but was dusty and greasy. Food was good but TINY portions. People were FAKE and sissy. I wanted to go into some of the stores but my friend said we had to get out of that artificial area immediately after we ate.

bahdabahbaba...I'm lovin' it.

fair critcism of the West Village, though the parking garage is nowhere near that. As for the cramped and compacted, thank you!! The last part was hilarious, as if that's something exclusive to Dallas.

and people in Dallas take White Rock Lake and Samuell Grand for granted when they say no one would use the park or its unecessary. They forget how hard real estate developers have tried to build tall next to White Rock stating they want to build close to the water and in the city. If they really want to, like they say, this will be their chance.