rantanamo

People in Dallas don't like Jerry. He's a big time suburban developer. People like Cuban, Tom Hicks and the Perots, on the other hand, seem to have a love for Dallas proper and have made huge investments in the city. Jerry, ran to Arlington and builds whatever he can as far out as he can. He even lives right outside the Dallas border in Highland Park. We also think he's not the owner Cuban is. Jerry like to interfere. Cuban just likes to be an overzealous fan. He goes to bat for his team and THE LEAGUE repeatedly. He's right. Being quiet is to allow a product that could be making lots of money and gaining popularity continue to fail and go downhill

As for how to look at the series, say what you want. Bill Simmons wrote his articles before the finals were over and was dead on. Take that how you want, but its scary. Normally, predictions and pre-analysis are based on on-the-court play, not on how the series is called. As you can see, he did his homework too. I gurantee you that if it aint football, in the DMN, its just an opinion. Simmons made a hypothesis.

the '94 World Cup remains the most profitable % wise(made vs spent), most well attended, and most merchandise units sold. Of course today's dollars would make the last two profit more money. Look at what you listed and how much Germany has had to spend. Consider that they have as good of a set of stadiums as you will find outside of the U.S. in one nation. To get to this level, South Africa will have to spend similar amounts, or more to do this. They are even trying to outdo Germany with a couple of what I'd term as super stadiums. Germany is one of the biggest economic powers in the world. I don't know where South Africa ranks, but I never see them on such a list. Have you seen the stadiums in their bid? They are spending serious money to upgrade existing and build some new stadiums. If that's all Germany makes, I fear South Africa will come out in the red.

Then we are talking about South America. Shouldn't the winning country be announced NOW or even YESTERDAY? There isn't nearly the stadium infrastructure in South America that you have in Germany or even at the level of South Africa. Texas seriously could outdo every South American country right now. Remember, FIFA has stadium regulations. You can't just throw up anything or play anywhere. I know FIFA wants to go with the global thinking, but they have to be realistic about this. I'm not saying to exactly bring it to the US or back to Europe in 2014, but maybe you should look at China( decent stadium infrastructure with a couple that are breathtaking and about 10-15 nice ones overall) They would still need upgrading for some.

Stragely enough, to this day, the US WC '94 was the most lucrative and best attended World Cup ever. They'd be crazy not to want to come back. We may not be the best soccer fans, but we attend events and spend money whether anyone travels here or not.

I've read posts talking about the 2014 South America thing, but never anything from FIFA itself. What country would be capable of hosting? South America would need co-hosting. Even Brazil would need a serious facilities upgrade. Look at all the money Germany had to spend with a much better base of stadiums. South Africa is going to spend a lot too.

Here's my US World Cup lineup. Keep in mind we're talking about US in 2014 or 2018, so stadiums should reflect that. Must also keep in mind the FIFA trend of moving closer and closer to domed stadiums. Those without roofs will need a roof of some kind as well as all seats and the ability to hold a FIFA sized field:

AZ Cardinals Stadium - Glendale, Arizona

LA Memorial Coliseum(renovated) - Los Angeles, California

Invesco Field - Denver, Colorado

Dolphin Stadium(with retractable roof renovation) - Miami, Florida

Georgia Dome(renovated) - Atlanta, Georgia

Soldier Field - Chicago, Illinois

Lucas Oil Stadium - Indianapolis, Indiana

Louisiana Superdome(under renovation) - New Orleans, Louisiana

FedEx Field - Landover, Maryland

M&T Bank Stadium - Baltimore, Maryland

Ford Field - Detroit, Michigan

New Vikings Stadium - suburban Minneapolis

New Giants/Jets Stadium - The Meadowlands

Bank of America Stadium - Charlotte, NC

Cleveland Browns Stadium(getting a possible retractable roof) - Cleveland , Ohio

Lincoln Financial Field - Philly, PA

Reliant Stadium - Houston

Cowboys Park - Arlington

Qwest Field - Seattle, Washington

Then we have to break this down to 10-12 by going with those most like to get roofs or already have roof plans or big spending owners. Plus those built for international soccer.

AZ Cardinals Stadium - Glendale, Arizona

LA Memorial Coliseum(renovated) - Los Angeles, California

Dolphin Stadium(with retractable roof renovation) - Miami, Florida

Soldier Field - Chicago, Illinois

Lucas Oil Stadium - Indianapolis, Indiana

FedEx Field - Landover, Maryland

Ford Field - Detroit, Michigan

New Giants/Jets Stadium - The Meadowlands

Cleveland Browns Stadium(getting a possible retractable roof) - Cleveland , Ohio

Reliant Stadium - Houston

Cowboys Park - Arlington

Qwest Field - Seattle, Washington

This would be the greatest World Cup stadium lineup ever.

Isn't Victory connected by transit? I have a friend that is quite familiar with some of the plans going on in Dallas and he says the way Downtown and Uptown is shaping up, it does have the potential to become more of an area that intimdates the automobile.

It is. The thing about Victory and the West End area is that they are easy to reach by car, but not the easiest place to park. People are intimidated by that already. I've heard it many times.

As for what would bring pedestrian traffic to that area? Office buildings, restaurants, residences, retail, the grocery, the park. The mix works in the Cityplace West/ West Village area already, and its not close to build out. If there are things that people have to or want to do in the immediate vicinity and walking from point to point is easier than finding a parking spot at each place, then walking ensues, no matter how one gets to that area.

Interesting post, Red, but I don't think you're exactly right. Just because you build a parking garage, does not mean its not pedestrian oriented. Let's take the W or The House vs your typical Las Colinas tower. The Victory towers are built with 0 setback. They have large sidewalks, and ground floor retail. The garages in Victory are all built either above the ground floor level or below. I would call that pedestrian oriented. A tightly squeezed garage with an out of the way entrance/exit is not exactly what I'd call car oriented. In comparison, most Las Colinas towers are just a tower surrounded by parking or a small lawn with a skinny sidewalk and attached garage on the back. No retail. No movement. No people space except for that to get to and fro your car.

I think Mockingbird Station and West Village itself are examples of what not to do. Too much head in parking. The use of space is very pedestrian though. The rest of the Cityplace West are though is excellent. The garages are very hidden, and the developments are very pedestrian oriented and much easier to reach by rail(subway station and trolley) or bus. Just because car use is integrated does not mean it is not pedestrian oriented. Manhattan style urbanism is not the only way to do it. It just needs to be done right. I don't think Victory is exactly the example to criticize. All the individual towers going up in the Lower McKinney area and Turtle Creek on the otherhand are good examples.

Exactly. Its an opinion. Its spoken here like its fact. I think your list is a huge reach though.

Interesting you'd take that out of context right below the actual quote.

To build these things and hope that a pedestrian environment grows up around them is so Dallas...meaning it's tacky.

- Provide list of tacky things in Dallas.

- Evidence that DALLAS is building jumbotrons and hoping to build an urban environment around THEM. Please provide.

Its my understanding that the Jumbotrons are a small part of Victory Park, put there because Hillwood wants to enhance the experience in an area being designed for pedestrians(wide sidewalks, small setbacks, light rail, walking distance from West End, multiple nightlife venues)

Why this whole thing is ridiculous:

There is nobody specifically in charge of the metroplex, which is why some people were saying they were waiting for the state to come in and discuss how exactly the people were going to be spread around the metroplex.

and yes, this is a bash fest.

If one could park his car and walk to all of these areas, I would agree. In Victory's case, I would think West End would be more accessible by foot than McKinney and Cityplace.

How about parking further up the line in Plano or Richardson, Riding the rail to the West Village. Trolleying down McKinney or to the Arts District. Walk to the rail a couple of blocks away. Ride to the Main St Area. Hang out. Then ride to the West End. Walk to Victory, or even rail to Victory when that rail is more open.

I still don't see a comparison. If you want to compare Victory to something, you don't compare it to a side of town. I wouldn't compare it to the main area of downtown Dallas, even though within a similar area there are more units under reno/construction. I compare Victory to places like Cityplace West, That damned village in Glendale, AZ around their stadiums, Atlantic Station in Atlanta or perhaps Pavillions. If you want to compare that area of downtown Houston, I'd probably say the convention center/South Lamar area of Dallas, which is in its very early stages of seeing development.

Is it better comparing the West Village/Cityplace West masterplan with Victory or Main St?? All three are similarly sized areas, but two are masterplanned and purpose built.

and for misconceptions sake on this board:

Closeness of Victory and the West End(Big pic, so just copy the link at your own leisure) This is The House by Starck site

http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/9688/victory2copy9at.jpg

Studying renderings, Pavillions seems to a better size match for the Mercantile Complex, which is in the heart of downtown Dallas.

So you're going to selectively choose a side of town vs a purpose built development? I'd imagine the main area of downtown Dallas is also kicking Victory's butt in measureables.

The fact is, as far as upscale entertainment and tourism, Houstonians will be going to the Eastside and Pavillions, while Dallasites will head to Victory

.

Victory and Lower McKinney and West Village/Cityplace and the eastern Arts District.

Didn't UT announce a while back that UTD would be getting Tier 1 type funding when the whole Texas Instruments wafer fab partnership was announced? I remember UT Arlington making a huge stink about it. So much so that they were/are threatening a move to leave the UT system. I swear I read this a couple of years ago. It was perhaps in Alcalde or maybe the DMN discussing changes to the UT system.

QUOTE(rantanamo @ Sunday, May 7th, 2006 @ 4:49am) *

I think that's what's being said here. It is a mall and nothing more.

As a physical building, of course it is a just a mall. I think everyone understands that. But there are many places that transcend what they 'simply' are. Do you dispute that? Something has to be right there for the place to have stuck to its original style for decades, lead much larger malls in sales for decades and become known as an instution.........for decades. Why? I have no idea. Even a suburban skeptic like myself can't deny its continued success. I've watched Colling Creek, Richardson Square, Big Town, Town East, Prestonwood, Redbird, and even Galleria Dallas all fade to or near oblivion or need extreme makeovers to boost sales during my lifetime alone. At that same time, Northpark never changed its look, yet continued to outsell them. Before its expansion was announced, it was outselling the others. The Nasher family decided to update and expand, not because they needed to. That in and of itself says something as well.

I think it is the descriptions that have been posted that are misleading. Then when you look at the pics, it is a BIG let down. Looks like a mall.

The descriptions are dead on. The place simply elegant and non-compromising. I was one who was skeptical. Now I love the place. I never thought the old mall was particularly beautiful, but could accept that rare art was there, and that it says something for a place to be so simple, yet be one of the sales leading malls per square foot in the whole United States. A place where people actually go and stay rather than visit their store and leave. But the expansion is really spectacular to me. A total understanding of what the old parts needed, yet not going in a total other direction. Its like, whatever was working at the mall was only extended and improved. The clean lines work. The place has never recieved the type of makeover that other malls do ever decade and a half, yet has continued to outdraw them for over 40 years. Not many places like that. Trust me, there is no disappointment in person. Just because you expected 'Gaudy' from the descriptions doesn't make it a letdown. It simply has never been an in-your-face place.

For me personally, the advertising campaign must be huge there. Classifying it as "an experience" on the website is humorous. Displaying pieces of public art is quite common here. Even driving along freeways you see them. The only reason i'm thinking flash is because that's how everyone is describing it. "it's incredible" "The shopping cewnter provides an experience like none other in the U.S. It's like a museum that just so happen to have retail stores. The shopping center is truly more than just a mall." To me the desciptions make it sound like the Louvre or the Pushkin.

This is where I simply don't think you guys understand. You make it seem like the art displayed is from the local high school or the local iron sculptor. Its not public art. PLEASE read about the Nasher Sculpture Garden and the pieces that are displayed there from of the world's finest art collections. Pieces that were only displayed at Northpark before Nasher opened the sculpture Garden. Is it the Louvre? No. Does it display art from a collection that's as fine as anything in Texas? YES. That's not hard to understand if you read up on it. One part of the new expansion is the inclusion of a sculpture garden to display more of the collection. So yes, it is a destination.

I don't think people are saying it is inferior, people are saying it is a mall. Mister X summed it up best. He said "I don't think anyone in the world outside Dallas could elevate the experience of going to a mall as a celebration of the fine arts." We have to remember the big picture here, it DOES have a Chick-fil-A, like most malls.

We know its just a mall. But you guys are sounding like sour grapes. You can shout disappointment about a place that you've never been to all day, but you can't argue with its numbers. And if you want to argue the size numbers, I'd suggest taking that up with our poster LH. He seems to have worked with this expansion and can probably provide the best explanation of the claim. He also has some nice pictures pre-opening.

points that should be pointed out here:

- Dallas does have a Galleria built by the same people that built yours. It has a very similar design. Its not like big modern malls are something absent from DFW. We actually have a ton of modern malls to compare it to.

- No offense to the photographer, but those pics don't do Northpark justice. The expansion has to be one of the classiest pieces of building I've seen in a long time. The way everything ties together is incredible. The original mall is very conservative, yet just elegent enough to let you know you're at an upscale mall. I was worried the expansion would try to out-Galleria itself. It didn't.

- I think some of you are hung up on flash. If you read what posters and the articles say, then you know it is not a flashy mall. Its a very elegant and understated mall in design. It does happen to display many priceless works from the Nasher collection. That's about all the flash you get there.

- To suggest its not on the level of either the Dallas or Houston Galleria is the only ridiculous thing on this thread. Its large in size. Its about as upscale of a mall as their is in Texas. Is there a more upscale mall in Texas? It has a good enough reputation that its, next expansion will include a hotel. Its one of the nation's sales leader per square foot. The Nasher family actually displays part of their modern art collection there. Just because it doesn't have a skating rink 3 tier design and large glass roof doesn't mean its inferior to the Gallerias.

Without knowing the exact W figure, the first clue that sales are doing well was the announcement of building the second tower. The last thing I read had the first tower at 85% and the second tower sold out, as well as the Terrace being sold out except for 1 unit. That was in November. Last I heard from the Ritz-Carlton, it was nearly sold out, and they are already talking second tower. That's not a dream figure. That's from articles. Bare with me on the others. I'm sure they're posted. Most articles I've seen talk about the great sales downtown. I have no idea about The House, Azure, Stoneleigh or any of those. You could always call their leasing offices. Just know that The House just signed a grocery tenant. From reading recent articles, sales are doing better than expect for each. Of course that could just be HOPE and DREAMS.

And you're right, its being prepped. This is the first thread I've seen that said, "under construction". The hotel operator they are negotiating with is Mandarin Oriental. That has already been published. One of what I call our "go to guys" is saying August for the hoopla and actual real groundbreaking. The actual size of each component is already listed

As for office space being built in Uptown, the only space under construction are the Victory Plaza buildings ( Hillwood, team offices, Channel 8, and unnanounced retail component.) Apparently there is a lot of demand in that submarket for larger spaces with the vacancy rate hovering around 10%. Apparently(According to Crescent, Hillwood, Harwood and Steve Brown) there is competition in Uptown for some tenants looking for larger chunks of space. That's why you're seeing office projects announced. Apparently there are also tenants looking for large chunks downtown as well. That's why you are seeing a repositioning of leases in the last few months. At the same time, you have Hunt building their own HQ downtown and leaving one of these large chunks in Fountain Place and Bank One and Chase Merging, leaving a large chunk in the Bank One building. That's all I meant.

You got me. They shouldn't build anymore.

challenge for you. Read up about the building and why it is not a bad thing.

I'm glad we don't have NASCAR in Houston, Dallas has two!

Houston is more of an international city anyway, so a Le Mans type race is great to see.

As much as I love F1, MotoGP, ALMS and Champ Car, I'm glad TMS has two NASCAR races. Maybe its not international enough for some, but we're talking about a weekend that brings in 50,000-100,000 for qualifying and truck races, 20,000 for sprint races, 100,000-150,000 for the Busch race and over 200,000 for the Nextel Cup race. That's twice a year. Its almost like a Superbowl(in people numbers, not hype) twice per year. A huge number of these people are travelling in and not local. So hotels and restaurants are filled all over the metroplex as well as their being events in each downtown. None of the international series draw this big of a crowd except for Champ Car in Mexico City. They don't draw near that here in the states. I never realized how big of an event NASCAR weekends are until TMS was built. The only bad part about are the huge resulting traffic jams if you live along a route to TMS.

Having said all of that, I still want an FIA/FIM approved road course for the metroplex. Too bad boundless failed.

I'm assuming this will be Class A space. If that's the case, the Dallas CBD doesn't have a class A vacancy problem.

I don't really like the look of the arena far away vs up close. From far away, it is what it is. Up close, its awe inspiring. The shape and form of it seem to soar, and the true enormity of the building is revealed. Especially the arches. The Plaza buildings seemlessly blend with the horizontal lines of the arena. It makes one wonder what will go on the other sides since every building in Victory so far has been different. The closest are probably the W and the upcoming The House.

will this be dramatic? Much

Those wondering if these bridges mean anything should check out the same thread on dallasmetropolis. The West Dallas chamber is planning all types of development around the Woodall Bridge.

As for wondering where all the water is, its simple. The Trinity River is Lake Lewisville, White Rock Lake, Lake Lavon, Lake Ray Hubbard, etc. Getting water there is not the problem. Just watch the flood plain fill from levee to levee during a storm. The problem is flood control. That's why they are working on flood control as we speak. Then they can fill the two new downtown lakes and not worry about flooding anymore.

As for whether development will happen. It already is in Oak Cliff. There are already renovations, new townhomes and apts going up on the south/west side of the levee. Also, two projects have already been announced on the downtown side of the levee. You also have massive rezoning, and land changing hands in response. Its almost a matter of when more than if. Don't be surprised if you start seeing advertising for towers opening up the next couple of years advertising view of the Woodall bridge. If anyone was lucky enough to see the spot light simulation in the winter, its obvious this thing at 400 ft tall will be pretty awe-inspiring for an inland city like Dallas.

The video will not only face the plaza, plus there will be plenty more signage. Keep in mind this is only phase II. And I agree that the buildings really fit good together in person. The horizontal lines especially fit wonderfully with the horizontal lines of the AAC. The view coming out of the AAC is even more spectacular than the renderings. Can't wait to see this all lit up in the summer with the lighted fountains going.

speaking as a fan of CCWS, I'd much rather see the race in a parking lot or part of an airport, where they can build in some passing zones and variety. They may even be able to create some runoff areas. Downtowns make a nice backdrop for tv, but make boring races.

The 6.25 million comes from the NCTCOG

http://www.nctcog.dst.tx.us/ris/demographics/population.asp

I think the most interesting trend, is that the fast growth is really beginning to go on the eastern side of the metroplex. There is nothin but land to the east and south metroplex. Many of these places are much closer to downtown than some of the populous northern suburbs. At the same time, you have some serious job growth potential sites. Places like Royse City, Forney, Rockwall, Waxahachie and Red Oak, could be the next boomburbs over the next ten years.