rantanamo

Don't understand what's going on here. I'm pretty sure we've been saying that the development is nowhere near being finished, and is sparing of people most of the time. Hard to draw people to walk around. Its pretty easy to log onto Dallasmetropolis and read this. I pretty much stated it here. At the same time, anytime there is an event, the place is busy for a while. Anytime there's a 10pm newscast, it tends to draw a crowd. Don't get what the big deal is around here. How about we let these places get built.

Don't understand the need to compare a development in the middle of downtown, vs a purpose built one that will be isolated for the next couple of years vs one in the heart of downtown. We try to give you more valid comparisons and you don't want it. You're talking about two different cities with areas that have different things in them. How about we compare compare the streetlife of our Uptown to that of your's? Its a stupid comparison.

Fact: Dallas could fill every lot downtown, have the streetlife of Seattle and have restaurants and arts venues rated the highest in the US, and you guys would argue as to why it sucks or why something in Houston is better. We already see it with light rail. Sorry, don't care what your ridership per mile is, you system is behind. Despite how the census rates the metros, commuter patterns, consolidated TV market for decades, somehow Dallas and Fort Worth are still different metros. I really don't get why you guys create a Dallas forum. Its actually quite comical to read vs the continued support for your developments and light jabs we like to give you guys. I don't know what's so surprising. The first guy I encountered @ UT asked me where I was from. When I said Dallas, he went on a diatribe about why Houston is better. That's what this forum sounds like.

LOL, I was watching the live news report from there at 10. It wasn't empty. In fact there were people all over the plaza with a decent crowd watching the news. I'm betting they move the 10pm news there full time as the development grows. I know its a funny jab to use towards Dallas, but just taking a quick walk through, you can see that place will eventually be very busy. It just looks like a big dusty construction project as of yesterday. If you haven't been down to it lately, the forest of tower cranes is impressive. The numbers of cranes in that immediate area even more crazy.

To be clear, there are only two building I'd considered completely open and fully occupied; The W and the AAC. Some of the Plaza businesses are open and one of the shorter(Terrace or Vista) is open to renters on some floors. I'm sure it will be fine in time.

As for access, its easy to drive to, but make no mistake, its not the easiest place to park. I actually like that. One usually ends up having to walk around to do things and that's usually parking in the West End.

I'm a huge F-1 fan, but I don't think calling it classy vs NASCAR is the right way to put it. NASCAR is simply the F-1 of the US. Here in the US its usually more tech type guys, or more upper class people that follow, but in a lot of the world, it simply IS auto racing regardless of economic background. Same way soccer is seen here by many as an upper-middle class suburban sport, whereas in the rest of the world from the poorest tenament to the wealthiest estate it is the sport.

Before dissing Dallas in regards to racing, a deal was very close( I know it was close as they were looking for contractors to hire for the constructions) to being finished about two or 3 years ago for a huge motorsports park called Boundless. They were forming a new Outlaw league and were very connected in the F-1 and MotoGP world and wanted to bring them to the track. Basically, the Texas Motorspeedway and NASCAR officials politically ram-rodded the development and trashed the idea of road racing in North Texas and how few series there were(nevermind that there are only 3 major weekends at TMS during the year) that ran road racing. Truth is TMS was competing for a 2nd Cup date at that time(they got it) and were looking to reduce the IRL races by one(did this too last season) and saw that Boundless was going after both series in addition to the USGPs of F-1 and MotoGP. They also wanted Champ Car (who was looking for a new GP in Texas at that time), ALMS, Rolex(another dumped series from TMS), AMA road bike series races and some of the boat racing series as there was a racing lake planned in the center of the road course. Hated to see their negotiations go downhill so much. The group(Boundless, Inc) was really progressing and wanted to start construction in 2005.

Respectfully, I think you have a problem with the fact that deep down you know that Dallas's skyline doesn't belong on that list anymore than I do.

I have a (small) problem with folks that try to pass wishful thinking off as fact. But, If you really think that Dallas' skyline is as recognizable as New York's then you've really got some problems. (not serious ones)

written with respect. no kidding, Dallas is great. cough. cough. O.K. - now even I'M getting tired of this.

People recognize Dallas' skyline because there was a show that was slightly popular world-wide. Can't remember what it was called. That might have something to do with it.

Good article that articulates a lot of the concerns that we have.

Not seeing the lighting commonality. Dallas has always been bright and colorful at night. One Arts and Hunt will only add to that.

Blurb from a meeting on the current building saying Victory Park

If they don't want to integrate with the rest of the city, someone had better tell them to stop The House and House of Blues and scrap those museum plans.

Both are sprawly, trafic-filled smog factories with some unfounded compulsion to build up and egos to boot. There. They're even.

ok man we get your point. If one wants to say the Victory Tower is under construction, I can see their point. If one wants to say only the garage is under construction I see your point. The garage is part of the finished product. It could be part of the utility construction. It could be a delay due to leasing. It could be anything. It could be a future announcement that the Mandarin Oriental Hotel has broken the lease agreement. I rdon't know. Don't feel like arguing the semantics. The garage is part of the building. The site is underconstruction. Something is happening. That's all I know.

There are some clubs and bars in Victory. HOB is calling itself Victory. The Museum of Nature & History will also be a part of Victory and of course the Channel 8 studios and the AAC. Not to mention that retractable roof place in the plaza. Overall, there's no denying that to live in Victory or play with the stores and restaurants you need money. Participating in AAC events, patronizing the plaza, going to the grocery store for a special item, going to night clubs or attending museums does not require wealth. Neither do events like the planned New Years celebration, News specials or just plain walking across the street from the West End. I wouldn't call it "built for the masses", I would say, "built for a mass of the wealthy to live work and play, built for the greater masses to explore and patronize just enough" The greater connectivity Victory provides from the ACC should really help the adjacent West End. The HOB, Museum and House tower are literally across the street. Should be interesting in seeing if the proximity results in the West End becoming more and more residential as everyday amenities go up in Victory that simply haven't existed in the West End.

All of the above is mentioned without knowing what else is going in Victory. We only know their "Phase 1" buildings(and the mention of a second office tower already since the first one filled so quickly)

Since people of my ilk cannot give you accurate enough information go check out the thread on it at Dallasmetropolis. Post there a little. There's some new accurate information there for you.

PS. No one is bent out of shape. All I can give you is what the articles say and what pictures show. If that's not accurate enough for you, I suggest you contact Hillwood instead of relying on people of our ilk.

*SMH*

What I was trying to say in regards to the groundbreakings is that there was one announcement officially saying, buildings A,B,C, D, etc would be built, and it gave seasonal type vague start time periods. There was never some press release saying The House would break ground on December 18, for example. After it was underway(we actually do follow these things on dallasmetropolis, believe it or not) then you started seeing stuff about it and voila! it shows up on the website. This is in contrast to many of the individual buildings in Uptown that gave specific start dates and had ceremonies. If Victory Tower is underway, it has followed the course of the rest of Victory Park(except for the AAC) where there was no formal date announcement or groundbreaking ceremony. Just an article or two with some vague seasonal start period. For example:

Mandarin Hotel

To Beef Up Project

Outside of Dallas

By THADDEUS HERRICK

May 10, 2006; Page B12

A $3 billion mixed-use project on the outskirts of downtown Dallas will include the region's first Mandarin Oriental Hotel, in a deal expected to be announced today, providing the development with a big boost.

Victory Park, a 75-acre project spearheaded by Ross Perot Jr.'s Hillwood, is one of a few ambitious U.S. developments that seek to create large-scale urban neighborhoods from scratch. Another particularly notable example, with almost twice the acreage of Victory Park, is Atlantic Station, in Atlanta; it was co-developed by AIG Global Real Estate Investment Corp. and Jacoby Development Inc.

The Mandarin Oriental Dallas would be Victory Park's second major luxury hotel. A W Hotel and residences are set to open June 15. Construction on the Mandarin is expected to begin early next year. It is scheduled to open in 2009, with 120 rooms occupying the first 11 floors of the project's signature high-rise, a 43-floor building to be known as Victory Tower. An additional 90 residences on floors 23 to 43 will range in price from $850,000 to $6 million.

Mandarin Oriental Hotel Group, a unit of Mandarin Oriental International Ltd., is incorporated in Bermuda and owned in part by Jardine Matheson Group.

Mr. Perot said the Mandarin deal would mark a major milestone "in our endeavor to create Dallas' premier neighborhood." Though welcomed by Dallas's nearby central business district, Victory Park is nonetheless likely to compete with the city's traditional downtown.

The son of the former presidential candidate, Mr. Perot is building his project in the shadow of a new $420 million basketball and hockey arena. In addition to the W Hotel, owned by Starwood Hotels & Resorts Worldwide Inc., two midrise residential buildings are to open in the fall, plus a retail and office plaza. The master plan calls for 12 million square feet of retail, residential and office space.

Write to Thaddeus Herrick at thaddeus.herrick@wsj.com

"Early Next Year" That's all I'm trying to say. If it has indeed begun its real construction or whether its just the garage, ground has been broken, yet nothing formal out there yet. Typical Victory stuff.

As for what they are building, who knows. As I said, it could be the garage. That could be all they build. That may be how this building is constructed. I dunno. But it is too funny for words. Constant searching for discretization of this project somehow. Just let them build. Let the announcements come out and we'll see what's going on. For all we know, the Mandarin Hotel has backed out.

all of the Victory ground breakings were announced last May. None have had the typical groundbreaking that you see with other buildings. They've all just started one day.

The Victory Tower construction may or may not be for just the garage, who knows. The garage will sit on the south end of the block. They are however placing footers throughout the site, so unless the building was redesigned they seem to be building the building.

If they were all going the same direction in Victory Plaza, wouldn't that actually be traffic flow? I think that's a misunderstanding of the design though. Its not a pass through space like the typical American sidewalk on a street in an entertainment district where people are club hopping. The plaza itself is supposed to be used almost like a park. Just needs its seats and fountains back once everything opens.

From the looks of this thread, you'd think Arlington was 30 miles from Dallas. It isn't. What will they do? I dunno, but Dolphin Stadium is not close to the partying places in Miami, so I'm sure that would be fine in Dallas or Fort Worth.

What can JerryWorld offer that others don't?

- Fully retractable glass walls on both ends in addition to the retractable roof for a more outdoorsy feel(Indy does this at one end).

- World's largest jumbotron(x2)

- Field level suites, of which I'm sure the owner and celeb types will love.

- A Superbowl in the home of one of the most storied franchises. Don't think that's ever happened.

- expandable to 100,000 seats, Indy only expands to 70,000.

I'm not one to tout Arlington, but they will have their glory park online. Between Dallas and Fort Worth, there should be plenty of recreation for the peoples. It would be different from Houston's Superbowl experience, but that doesn't mean it would be a bad bid.

Could be anyone's bid, but the only on

Of course I can: it isn't relevant. If something gets built next door to the boundaries of Victory, isn't it still a part of that area in the way that the average joe percieves it?

No it can't. Victory is a very specific area that is boxed in by dissimilar development. To the South you have the West End, which has a distinctive architecture and history in Dallas. To the West you have Stemmons Freeway and DART Rail corridor. To the North, you have Goat Hill which has a distinctive elevation difference. To the East, you have the Jefferson Apts and Katy Trail, with immediate elevation change. Not to mention, Victory has its own distinctive bunting, decor and lighting. Clearly labeled and clearly landlocked to its specific parcel of land.

You cannot distinguish a part of Houston even if its on one street unless you want to mark specific parcels empty or not empty, planned or unplanned, unveiled or not unveiled. Victory is a development that might as well be one building. There is no Victory area in Dallas. You can compare them if you like, but one is locked to a certain thing vs one that is unlimited. Its no different than comparing your Galleria area to Victory. Might as well compare Preston Hollow(upscale area of Dallas) to Starwood(upscale subdivision in Frisco). Its not really a fair comparison for either.

Suggestion: How about Uptown Dallas vs Dallas St in Houston. Which is a more valid comparison. Both are probably similar in size, both are office and residential districts with many individual developments within.

My problem with the comparison for those that don't understand:

- Victory has set boundaries and they are forever set in stone. It has been built in that location as a whole.

- If you're talking about an area of DT Houston, then what is the limit on that comparison area. You can include or exclude anything you want, and if something is built on the next block it can be added to that area.

You can't get past that point.

why the need to compare. How about Las Colinas urban center of the 80s to Greenway Plaza, though Las Colinas Urban Center is definitely correcting itself as far as urbanity goes.

Houston19514, I take it you haven't been reading my work for very long. I'm criticize for the exact opposite on other websites, because I tell it like it is too much at times. I'm not much of a sugar coater. And it was not I who started calling this the first phase of Victory Park. It was the developers in the last article. so

I would like to take this time to apologize for the boastful pride I have taken with this project. I've always thought it was good for the area, but mentioned it being out urbaned by the Cityplace West area, that was developing much faster initially(at the time, both had similar brick like designs). Now Victory is really charging ahead, drawing people and looking great. Sorry if that's too prideful or too much homerism, but it does look great. Everytime you go by on Stemmons, you see horizontal lines everywhere. You can see the lights and some screens on as well. It looks like it will be great for pedestrians as well. But let me add, its in Dallas.............therefore it should be teh suck. Is that better?

Yes it does, especially the when there are beads of water on the helmets. And HD isn't pointless from a scientific perspective. The bandwidth movement was necessary. The move from eye straining resolutions to resolutions closer to what the human eye can perceive, and yes it is truly enjoyable compared to regular tv. I didn't know what I was missing until I jumped in.

They should be excited about it. Victory Park is not even close to finishing its first phase and its already looking like something great. Just give it time. Barely anything is open there. It will be an interesting couple of years as opening after opening happens over that time.

I'm an HTPC nut, and after seeing all of this SideShow business, I am totally sold. This is something myself and other HTPC enthusiasts have been waiting for and hoping for. EPG, email, etc on the remote!!! Greater functionality with the Zune. I could imagine all kinds of clock radios, kitchen appliances, lighting controls, etc that use this technology.

On the work front, it seems every other company in our building is talking of or are in the transition to Vista, while we're about to Mac. Its not that big of a deal for a mortgage company I guess, but I was hoping to get a little playtime before I upgrade at home.

WFAA probably has the most professional local newscast I've seen anywhere(Dale Hansen does suck half the time though). They have incredible studio design, very veteran broadcasters and there's something simply classy about them that I've not seen from living in several other states. I don't know what points to making it that way, but its always felt that way to me. I expected one of the other stations like Fox4 or CBS11(known for their remotes) to have a studio there, because it simply doesn't seem like them. But they've done a great job with the studio. I have to agree its not going to be or isn't Times Square, but something unique for Dallas. I can't wait until the first phase is done. I think it is misunderstood that when the first phase is talked about, we're talking about 4 more towers being completed. THEN Victory will be 1/3 finished. In case you haven't seen the tiny bit that's open all lit up on a game night, it already looks pretty awesome. Just imagine when there's more open, thousands more residents, thousands of workers and thousands of shoppers all mixed in with thousands of gameday patrons or concert goers. The difference between this and say a football stadium is you are guranteed at least half of the year being booked for the arena. Should be fun.

The thing I'm most surprised about is how people in the metroplex are actually impressed with it. People in the metroplex are very very hard to please if it aint super suburban. Everyone seems to love it though and most are shocked(most don't follow development like we do) that something like this is happening at all in Dallas.

Teams playing in a suburb and still retaining the city name is nothing new. American professional sports teams are franchises and brand names. They retain the draw of the region, not some individual municipalities. if you were from say, Chicago and they said the Irving Cowboys, wouldn't you be like....where dat? who dat? Nobody knows these places from afar. Jerry Jones and any other owner knows this(except Disney with the angels and Mighty Duck who were trying to brand the Angels with Disney). Notice they are now the Los Angeles Angels) The Lakers were not the Inglewood Lakers when they were at the forum. The Giants and Jets are not the New Jersey Giants or Jets. There are no Landover Redskins, there were no Pontiac Lions or Auburn Hills Pistons, no St Paul Wild. Despite what the suburbans think of Dallas, it is the big draw in our region. It has the hotels, it has the skyline, it has the most to do, and has a history beside old cotton fields. If anyone should be paying, it should be the Cowboys to use Dallas in its name.