Israel

[Heights2Bastrop]

Does anyone beside myself feel that Israel

[MidtownCoog]

"That's all I can stands. I can't stands no more."

Israel

[TJones]

"That's all I can stands. I can't stands no more."

Israel

- AHH Guh Guh Guh Guh Guh !

[johncoby]

- AHH Guh Guh Guh Guh Guh !

Bluto did it.

[westguy]

The solider is dead. So, way to go Israel.

[MidtownCoog]

Read closer, Westguy. You are confusing a dead setteler with the captured soldier.

Israelis have been trying to negotiate a settlement with the Palestinians for years, but the Palestinians have not been negotiating in good faith.

They voted for Hamas, and seem to think terrorism will achieve something for them, despite all the evidence.

[nmm]

Yes, i think its because of the "Judeao-Christian" Heritage.

Flying over ____ing Syria, and murdering random Palestinains on the beach is terrorism too. State sponsored terrorism. Sort of like whats occuring in Darfur.

Arresting 60+ Palestinian Cabinet Members

Flying Israeli War Planes over Syria

Israeli Tanks in Gaza

all found at www.drudgereport.com

For what? For taking hostage one soldier?

Yes, the Israelis kill the Palestinians then threathen them with death if they resist. On top of that they claim a higher moral ground over a group of uneducated, caged up Arabs swaying between depression and suicide. Good job.

Israel always punishes Palestinian terrorism by targeting infrastructure. Buildings, Bridges, Water, Schools, etc - the works.

Collective Punishment is the method they use. So they target one man, drop a bomb over him, and wipe out a neighborhood.

Nevertheless, i think the murdering of the Israeli soldier was wrong. You dont murder POWs, its just not ethical. But i dont really know whats going on in that part of the world. In all honesty it is one of the ugliest conflicts of the century to a standard that has never been met before.

Of course the Palestinans are going to murder innocent people, as are the Israelis. Although, in my opinion, with Israel holding the upper hand, they dont seem to give a damn how many Palestinians they kill.

[MidtownCoog]

they dont seem to give a damn how many Palestinians they kill.

Why should they?

[nmm]

Oh, i dont know. Maybe because if they want to tout their "morality" and convince others of their cause, they should?

I should have said, they dont seem to give a damn how many innocent Palestinians they target.

See its one thing to kill terrorists/PLO people. Its another thing to randomly attack anything that breathes and looks arab. And then you express nonchalant indifference. AND then to expect world sympathy because your Jewish and the holocaust was bad and your a dirty anti-semite if you dont help Israel by sending war supplies to keep 'peace'.

[TJones]

Yes, i think its because of the "Judeao-Christian" Heritage.

Flying over ____ing Syria, and murdering random Palestinains on the beach is terrorism too. State sponsored terrorism. Sort of like whats occuring in Darfur.

Arresting 60+ Palestinian Cabinet Members

Flying Israeli War Planes over Syria

Israeli Tanks in Gaza

all found at www.drudgereport.com

For what? For taking hostage one soldier?

Yes, the Israelis kill the Palestinians then threathen them with death if they resist. On top of that they claim a higher moral ground over a group of uneducated, caged up Arabs swaying between depression and suicide. Good job.

Israel always punishes Palestinian terrorism by targeting infrastructure. Buildings, Bridges, Water, Schools, etc - the works.

Collective Punishment is the method they use. So they target one man, drop a bomb over him, and wipe out a neighborhood.

Nevertheless, i think the murdering of the Israeli soldier was wrong. You dont murder POWs, its just not ethical. But i dont really know whats going on in that part of the world. In all honesty it is one of the ugliest conflicts of the century to a standard that has never been met before.

Of course the Palestinans are going to murder innocent people, as are the Israelis. Although, in my opinion, with Israel holding the upper hand, they dont seem to give a damn how many Palestinians they kill.

Sure Nmm, whatever you say, The Palestinians are a group of people that can't govern themselves, Israel moved out, and even set them up with few businesses for money making abilities with money donated by U.S. and Israelis, and what do they do, they loot and pilage their own people. You give them an inch and they will try to take a mile. I know what your first question will be, so I will provide a link for you before you even have to ask.

Here ya go,click on the link and scroll down a little, then choose a story.....any story.

http://greenhouses.yardhq.com/gaza-greenhouses.php

[nmm]

See, you are a bigot.

Palestinians cant govern themselves eh? I wonder what all these organizations are: PLO, Fatah, Hamas. I dont know about you, but if a people can organize and elect representatives by themselves for themselves, they know how to govern themselves.

I can throw this back in your face by highlighting the Hurricane Katrina mess. Americans cant govern themselves: just look at how they loot and shoot each other at a time when they should be helping each other.

Yeah, and i wouldnt trust one mans blog to tell me whats happening halfway across the world. Id use a variety of sources to reach a conclusion.

I dont know if they plundered. Maybe they did. But this isnt how they survive in. And if they did plunder ask questions. How? Why? What motivated them? What was the social climate at the time? Where am i recieving my information from? Important questions, no?

You give them an inch, and they try to take a mile? Are you joking me? ____, id try to take it all too. It belonged to me 60 years ago, didnt it?

This is the Native Americans versus European Settlers, redux.

[MidtownCoog]

And if they did plunder ask questions. How? Why? What motivated them? What was the social climate at the time?

This is the textbook typical hippie tree huggin granola eating hairy pit loving liberal cop-out.

Trying to understand terrorits never works.

[TJones]

See, you are a bigot.

Palestinians cant govern themselves eh? I wonder what all these organizations are: PLO, Fatah, Hamas. I dont know about you, but if a people can organize and elect representatives by themselves for themselves, they know how to govern themselves.

I can throw this back in your face by highlighting the Hurricane Katrina mess. Americans cant govern themselves: just look at how they loot and shoot each other at a time when they should be helping each other.

Yeah, and i wouldnt trust one mans blog to tell me whats happening halfway across the world. Id use a variety of sources to reach a conclusion.

I dont know if they plundered. Maybe they did. But this isnt how they survive in. And if they did plunder ask questions. How? Why? What motivated them? What was the social climate at the time? Where am i recieving my information from? Important questions, no?

You give them an inch, and they try to take a mile? Are you joking me? ____, id try to take it all too. It belonged to me 60 years ago, didnt it?

This is the Native Americans versus European Settlers, redux.

Hate to burst your bubble AGAIN, but the Greenhouse story was reported everywhere.

Did you really mention the PLO ? and HAMAS? You bet, two WONDERFUL organizations that travel around the world selling Cookies to help raise funds for their organizations, get real, if you are gonna try to use those worthless retards to prove your point, then I will have to quit having conversations with your polluted mind.

Gaza Strip was being given everything it needed to prosper, and the Palestinians destoyed it themselves, There was no "act of GOD." that brought a hurricane to the region and destroyed it, they weren't desperately seeking water or food to feed their families, your Katrina analogy has to be the most ill-concieved notion EVER !

[HeightsGuy]

This shouldn't be considered a liberal vs. conservative arguement, and I have no problem with what Israel is doing.

I think it's a crying shame what's going on over there, but I think what Israel is doing to Hamas is no different than what we did to the Taliban. Notice I didn't say Afganistan and Palestine respectively. I think there are strong parallels between the two. The Taliban harbored and sponsored terrorists that attacked America. Hamas has for years harbored and sponsored terrorists that attacked Israel. I fully agree that Palestinians are getting shafted in the deal, but I think the arrest of the Hamas parliment is justified. We have done the same with Taliban leaders.

You saw the resolve of America after 9/11. Imagine living that on a constant basis like Israel does.

[Heights2Bastrop]

I figure it was our

[nmm]

This is the textbook typical hippie tree huggin granola eating hairy pit loving liberal cop-out.

Trying to understand terrorits never works.

Why not? Dont terrorists have agendas? Im not saying not to take them out when the time comes. Im saying if you understand their history and what they are demanding, its easier to control the situation. I think everyone will agree to that.

BTW I like how you think Palestinians are terrorists. Really shows your true intentions.

[nmm]

Did you really mention the PLO ? and HAMAS? You bet, two WONDERFUL organizations that travel around the world selling Cookies to help raise funds for their organizations, get real, if you are gonna try to use those worthless retards to prove your point, then I will have to quit having conversations with your polluted mind.

Yes i really mentioned PLO and HAMAS. Hamas being a democratically elected party. If it was democratically elected, it means that the people favored them in power. If the people voted them in, it means that they share the same ideals.

And as we all witness today how Israel destroyed Palestinian infrastructure for the sake of one "kidnapped" soldier [and it was reported that this soldier was "kidnapped" (with all the connotations attached) rather then captured] we may see why. Complete and unrestrained aggression is propelled by nothing other then equal aggression. Newton's Law: Every action has an equal and opposite reaction. . . . . And Israel warns to free the armed soldier who was trained to kill Palestinans or the Prime Minister dies. Go figure. :closedeyes:

The Palestinians more then likely want a government with a strong backbone.

But i can see why Americans have a hard time understanding the plight of the Palestinans.

1. Judeao-Christian Heritage that blinds.

2. Americans themselves trace their lineage back to the first European Settlers that encroached on Native American lands. Back 200 years ago when it was populary believed God favored Manifest Destiny at the expense of the native settlers - i can see the American-Israeli parallels.

And HeightsGuy, i understand what your saying - but look at it in context. These terrorist groups "Hamas, Al Qaeda, Al Jihad, etc" never exised in the 1950s. You see them in the 70s, 80s, and 90s. I wholeheartedly believe they are a reaction to their surroundings. Research the 1967 Israeli War and American opinions about it. It was a war based on the "Pre-emptive Strike policy". Understand that the people of the Levant realized if they dont create organized military groups, they were doomed to destruction and victims of land encroachment.

Also look into Israeli violations of the United Nations. Just search something very vague like "Israel violates United Nations".

Resolution 106: " . . . 'condemns' Israel for Gaza raid".

Resolution 111: " . . . 'condemns' Israel for raid on Syria that killed fifty-six people".

Resolution 162: " . . . 'urges' Israel to comply with UN decisions".

Resolution 171: " . . . determines flagrant violations' by Israel in its attack on Syria".

Resolution 237: " . . . 'urges' Israel to allow return of new 1967 Palestinian refugees".

Resolution 248: " . . . 'condemns' Israel for its massive attack on Karameh in Jordan".

Resolution 252: " . . . 'declares invalid' Israel's acts to unify Jerusalem as Jewish capital".

Resolution 256: " . . . 'condemns' Israeli raids on Jordan as 'flagrant violation".

Resolution 259: " . . . 'deplores' Israel's refusal to accept UN mission to probe occupation".

Resolution 501: " . . . 'calls' on Israel to stop attacks against Lebanon and withdraw its troops".

Resolution 520: " . . . 'condemns' Israel's attack into West Beirut".

Resolution 573: " . . . 'condemns' Israel 'vigorously' for bombing Tunisia in attack on PLO headquarters.

Resolution 592: " . . . 'strongly deplores' the killing of Palestinian students at Bir Zeit University by Israeli troops".

Resolution 605: " . . . 'strongly deplores' Israel's policies and practices denying the human rights of Palestinians.

Just some of the many. Look them up.

-------------------------------------------------------------

Look, im not saying Jews are 'bad'. Im saying your replacing one group of refugees with another. You gave the Jews Palestinian land and called it a day? And you dont expect the Palestinains to put together a crummy military organization to protect themselves?

Add one more to those Americans dead on the USS Liberty. http://www.rachelcorrie.org/news.htm

[TJones]

That's right nmm, "suicide bomb them all, and let Allah sort them out !", RIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIGHT ?

[nmm]

That's right nmm, "suicide bomb them all, and let Allah sort them out !", RIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIGHT ?

First of all, stop attributing Christian heritage to Islam. That statement originally was coined by the Catholic Church; the Pope at the time of the Crusades infact.

Secondly your a Bigot. You do understand why im calling you a bigot, right?

Im against suicide bombings. But people carry them out. Why?

Personally these pictures tell me either your extremely stupid, or extremely brave.

If you dont see the parallels, then. . . .

[TJones]

First of all, stop attributing Christian heritage to Islam. That statement originally was coined by the Catholic Church; the Pope at the time of the Crusades infact.

Secondly your a Bigot. You do understand why im calling you a bigot, right?

First, it is called "sarcasm" go look it up. I'm sorry you don't like exposure of what Palestinian "martyrs" do to themselves and innocent people in order to try and make a "statement". Truth hurts, doesn't it, and in WHO'S name do they do these vile acts in, nmm ? What you are failing to understand is that no one is forcing them to blow themselves up. They are brainwashed into their thinking, just like you are apparently.

Secondly, you better look in the mirror before you start casting stones, no pun intended. If I am guilty of being a "bigot" for believing that what the Palestinian suicide bombers, "soldiers" do to themselves and innocent people in open marketplaces and buses is beyond ALL rational thought, and I find them to be intolerable beings, then so be it, I WILL wear that name if you feel it applies to that. That makes you just as guilty for hating what the Israeli soldiers do in retalliation of such acts, the word "bigot" applies to you also good sir.

Third, your unfounded, infantile remarks have no effect on me. I will forgive you, like a good Christian would, and wish you nothing but good will and good faith in your journey to find truth in your religion. No ill will towards you, I got nothin' but LOVE for you, nothin' but LOVE !

I do see the parallels in your pics though. Maybe if Hamas sent a few hundred suicide bombers over to China, they could shake things up a bit and bring down Communism ? YEAH, THAT'S THE TICKET !

p.s. please don't quote this big'ol post, everyone will know that you are addressing me. Thank you my friend.

[editor]

This is an old joke, so the characters aren't relavant, but I think the point still gets made. It's been a long time since I heard it, so forgive me if I don't get the details quite right.

--:--

Benjamin Netanyahu and Yasser Arafat are at the negotiating table. Netanyahu decides to start things off with a joke.

Netanyahu: "So, there was Moses, five thousand years ago, leading his people out of Egypt into the promised land. He arrives in the place that would one day become Jerusalem, and as he's resting he notices that his walking staff is missing. 'Where's my walking stick?' Moses asks. 'An Arab must have stolen it,' comes a reply from the crowd."

At that point Arafat angrily interrupts.

Arafat: "There were no Arabs in that region 5,000 years ago!"

Netanyahu: "O.K., now that we've cleared up that point, let's begin negotiating."

[editor]

That statement originally was coined by the Catholic Church; the Pope at the time of the Crusades infact.

Actually, no. Your "facts" are wrong. There was not one "Pope at the time of the Crusades." There were many Popes during the Crusades, since the crusades spanned two centuries (roughly the 11th through 13th centuries).

John XVII (1003)

John XVIII (1003-09)

Sergius IV (1009-12)

Benedict VIII (1012-24)

John XIX (1024-32)

Benedict IX (1032-45)

Sylvester III (1045)

Benedict IX (1045)

Gregory VI (1045-46)

Clement II (1046-47)

Benedict IX (1047-48)

Damasus II (1048)

St. Leo IX (1049-54)

Victor II (1055-57)

Stephen X (1057-58)

Nicholas II (1058-61)

Alexander II (1061-73)

St. Gregory VII (1073-85)

Blessed Victor III (1086-87)

Blessed Urban II (1088-99)

Paschal II (1099-1118)

Gelasius II (1118-19)

Callistus II (1119-24)

Honorius II (1124-30)

Innocent II (1130-43)

Celestine II (1143-44)

Lucius II (1144-45)

Blessed Eugene III (1145-53)

Anastasius IV (1153-54)

Adrian IV (1154-59)

Alexander III (1159-81)

Lucius III (1181-85)

Urban III (1185-87)

Gregory VIII (1187)

Clement III (1187-91)

Celestine III (1191-98)

Innocent III (1198-1216)

Honorius III (1216-27)

Gregory IX (1227-41)

Celestine IV (1241)

Innocent IV (1243-54)

Alexander IV (1254-61)

Urban IV (1261-64)

Clement IV (1265-68)

Blessed Gregory X (1271-76)

Blessed Innocent V (1276)

Adrian V (1276)

John XXI (1276-77)

Nicholas III (1277-80)

Martin IV (1281-85)

Honorius IV (1285-87)

Nicholas IV (1288-92)

St. Celestine V (1294)

Boniface VIII (1294-1303)

The actual quote that you're twisting is, "C

[nmm]

Thanks for clearing up the history behind that quote. I appreciate it.

I carefully dissected the pictures after reading your criticism, and i believe you are correct. The event at Tianamen Square was an act of an 'unknown rebel' who stood in the way of an entourage of tanks. He was silently protesting the direction his nation was going. The student 'rebels' were protesting economic/political reforms taken by the Chinese Government.

The only similitude between the two pictures are the tanks and groups opposing the tanks. The ongoings in Israel-Palestine are totally dissimilar then what happened in China.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Secondly we dont base who owns what land by who got to the said land first. Under your reasoning, "Chief Blackfoot" and whats left of his tribe can demand all Americans leave New England because his people were there first.

That just doent happen. Thats idiotic.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mr TJones,

Yes, Suicide Bombers, for the umpteenth time, are not right in the head. Ive already told you that. But i think youll agree with me that bulldozing people while they are still in their homes is no better. Nor is it anyways justified to kick people out of their homes because you believe the Bible says you own their property. Nor does it help things any when you drop bombs over people picnicing with their family, and leave no apology whatsoever other then a shrug.

But when we look at international disputes, its common sense to seperate the aggressor or the instigator, from those who react to the aggression. Cause and effect is a very important tool.

Cause: British started to levy heavy taxes and began obnoxious demands from the European Colonies.

Effect: The American Rally for Independence.

Cause: The Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor.

Effect: America entered World War 2.

Cause: Gandhi led his drive to get the British out of India.

Effect: India became a sovereign nation in 1947.

So we see that all events are a product of the event prior to it. Yes there is Hamas and Suicide Bombers, but there is also the Wall, the 1967 War, and a plethora of other events that have shaped the history of the Levant.

I think its wise to carefully look into these things before running our mouths.

Its amazing to see how we criticize a group of Suicide Bombers for killing innocent civilians, while overlooking the death and destruction the state of Israel has caused the Palestinians. Nor does it make any rational sense to employ "collective punishment" over the actions of a few. Your only creating more enemies, not reducing your problems.

But most probably then not, we wont agree on this issue either way.

What i have found perplexing is how we

- drop bombs on people, kill children, women and old men

- read stories about torture

- read about a how three American soldiers raped an Iraqi teenager, then burned her alive to 'hide the evidence', then burned her three family members alive

- read about the Haditha Massacre

- and a host of other things

and we can go about our day as if nothing happened. We call it "collateral damage" or we excuse these acts by saying "those Guys in Iraq, you dont know what theyre going through, so give them a break". But the Iraqi people mark these things as critical defining points in their history.

At the same time you hear

- American military contractors are burned to death and hung from a bridge,

- or random journalists have their throats slit in home made movies

- or a rocket attack at an American military base killing 15 US troops

- and a grouping of other things

yet the Iraqi people dance and cheer to the news. And at home we grieve and discuss how to come back home.

So humans are relative; and oblivious of the crimes they perpetrate on others, yet hypocritical in the way they react when they are the victims of a crime.

the end. im out.

[editor]

Thank you for your rational response to my post. It's nice to see some civility around here.

Also, thanks for "similitude" -- I had to look it up. I learned something today!

[TJones]

At the same time you hear

- American military contractors are burned to death and hung from a bridge,

- or random journalists have their throats slit in home made movies

- or a rocket attack at an American military base killing 15 US troops

- and a grouping of other things

yet the Iraqi people dance and cheer to the news. And at home we grieve and discuss how to come back home.

The only footage I have ever seen of the Iraqi people dancing and cheering in the street, is when Saddam's statue was toppled (Live)on CNN. I don't know , maybe Al-Jazeera has some different footage, or runs the same clip ,from the staute being toppled, everytime it's "bad news" for the American infidels ? Do you have a link for these post-"pro-Iraqi" demonstrations ?

[mls1202]

The only footage I have ever seen of the Iraqi people dancing and cheering in the street, is when Saddam's statue was toppled (Live)on CNN. I don't know , maybe Al-Jazeera has some different footage, or runs the same clip ,from the staute being toppled, everytime it's "bad news" for the American infidels ? Do you have a link for these post-"pro-Iraqi" demonstrations ?

Living abroad, I've seen first hand a dramatic difference in the way news is covered and portrayed in the US. It's not lying, and it's not covering the truth, but it is different. The spin that is put on for American viewers on CNN, Fox News, etc. is no different than what Al-Jazeera spins for its audience. There is a huge amount of coverage on the rape and murder story, so much so that it dominates every facet of the Iraqi war.

TJones, it is not the same footage of the statue being toppled being replayed over and over again. But it is footage of groups of Iraqis that just don't like the American occupation. Do these foreign networks show the countless people who DO appreciate what America is trying to do? Sometimes, but mostly no.

[editor]

Living abroad, I've seen first hand a dramatic difference in the way news is covered and portrayed in the US. It's not lying, and it's not covering the truth, but it is different.

You are correct -- it can be very different. All day today the news in the United States was full of the story about the new "most wanted" list in Iraq. It was played here as if the American military came up with the list. The tonight I was listening to the news on a radio station out of Hong Kong. They carried a BBC radio report on it that said the list was created by the Iraqi government.

Also, while the reporting is different between the United States and other parts of the world, don't fall into the trap of blaming the differences on spin or point of view. A lot of times it's just a question of money and contacts.

For example, at the beginning of the war, everyone went to Iraq. Everyone from the big networks to the local stations from Miami. As time went on, this became expensive and the local stations dropped out. Then the small networks. Then even some of the major networks. These days there are only a few ways that television stations in the United States can reliably get video out of Iraq: Reuters, and APTN every day, and CBS/NBC/ABC occasionally. Even most of what you see on CNN is actually Reuters video. It's easier and cheaper for Reuters and APTN to operate in Iraq because their offices are in London. For the American networks, it's rediculously expensive to staff a reporter in Iraq, and most don't. They rely on free-lancers unless something huge happens, then they move someone in from the bureau in London.

So, what happens is every morning the free-lancers present the networks around the world with a list of all the video they have from Iraq that day. The TV networks have to decide if they should spend $5,000 on pictures of American soldiers building a school today, or save that money for the next catastrophy when they need pictures of an American helicopter going down. You don't have to watch many network newscasts to see that they're saving their money for a rainy day.

I can tell you that there really are a TON of good news stories happening in Iraq every day. But they don't make the television news because of the expense.

Of course, take everything above as a gross over-simplification of the situation. And remember that newspapers have their own problems that I can't begin to understand.

I guess the best advice is to use a variety of sources from the New York Times to individual soldier blogs from the men in the field.

[nmm]

Yes, many things dont get reported. For example, on 9/11, as they showed the Palestinians dancing on the street, there was a massive candle light vigil in Tehran.

And now we plan to blow them up.

[editor]

Yes, many things dont get reported. For example, on 9/11, as they showed the Palestinians dancing on the street, there was a massive candle light vigil in Tehran.

And now we plan to blow them up.

Geting any kind of video out of Iran is virtually impossible on a good day with lots of planning. Getting a vigil reacting to a developing story would be even more difficult. It's likely that by the time that video made it out of Iran the story had moved on. There were so many new developments in the days and weeks after 9/11 that it wouldn't have made sense to go backward and show people what happened weeks before.

Now, I don't want to make this strictly a Middle East thing, because it's not. There are HUGE sections of the United States where it can still take days to get video out to the networks. Believe it or not, a lot of the video you see on TV coming out of small markets got to the networks, at least part of the way, as a package on a Greyhound bus.

[nmm]

In the Palestinian photo I see a small number of a possibly larger mob of people throwing rocks, deliberately antagonizing a superior military force. Their larger goals are unclear in this photo, and I am unfamiliar with the specific incident that you've chosen to lift out of context. But by the rock throwing, I would assume that their immediate goal is to either enrage, or injure whomever is inside the tank.

I just reread that and i cant believe the way you spun this thing. Are you trying to make a case for Israel based on the photo i provided. Those tanks you see arent in Israeli land. They are in set aside Palestinian land. Behind the wall.

Poor innocent Israelis, their nukes (which they do have-everyone in the international community knows this) and world class army are no match for those precision guided stones and home made rockets

But really guys, they just suffered a holocaust, we should let them do anything they want to atone for our innately violent gentile behaviour. God help us overcome ourselves. Sarcasm if you didnt know.

]