LA The Densest Metro Area In The Country

[N Judah]

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nati..._density14.html

[Guest danax]

Great article.

I lived in L.A. from '80 to '91 and it was filled up then for 1.5 hours in any direction. I've often wondered where all of the new people were landing given the lack of land. I know where Maywood is and am surprised it's still packed with immigrants being only minutes from Downtown LA. It sounds like they are finally going to be priced out little by little and then the next phase should happen quickly; rebirth. The place has a lot of potential based really just on location so it will likely become a complete tear down situation. They mention infill as "the final frontier". The step after that is to tear down all older single family neighborhoods and build denser housing, and that phase could go on for a long, long time.

We have so much land around us that we are decades from any scenario like their's but I think we will see some similar situations in the not-too-distant future.

Immigrants will keep coming and living on top of one another if that's what it takes to survive. Those areas will get denser and denser and the general scene will keep anyone else from desiring to live there and redevelopment will be delayed until, like Maywood, rents get too high and they have to leave.

Where will these areas be? Wherever it's cheapest to live; where there are lots of dingy apartments and homes in a spot that no one is particularly interested in. We have a lot of these areas.

[N Judah]

Hopefully zoning restrictions and neighborhood associations don't get in the way of the natural densification process (as has happened in other cities).

[Guest danax]

Hopefully zoning restrictions and neighborhood associations don't get in the way of the natural densification process (as has happened in other cities).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Naturally, neighborhoods are not going to want to see themselves get torn down and turned into denser areas. That's why places like the Heights are able to maintain themselves while Rice Military, which was a non-unified neighborhood, and the Warehouse District got replatted en masse into medium density.

There have been attempts at replatting, where I live on the East End, for the purpose of building townhouses and the Civic Club showed up downtown and protested, and finally won. Sometimes I wonder though if letting the neighborhood turn to townhouses might not have been preferrable to an uncertain future, although the plans for these particular townhouses this guy wanted to build were initially presented to us as nice looking brick facade structures with 2 car garages. He then proceeded to build 2 completely different looking structures with no garages at all. A sneaky bait and switch. We stopped him from building 3 on 2 adjacent lots.

As the article mentioned, urban density is one thing, slum-creating overcrowding is another and neighborhood associations definitely don't want that. Construction of garage apts. is one way that overcrowding gets started. That one can be prevented by deed restrictions. Multiple families to a small house is much more difficult to control.

[YakuzaIce]

Construction of garage apts. is one way that overcrowding gets started. That one can be prevented by deed restrictions. Multiple families to a small house is much more difficult to control.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

An example of this is Sharpstown (though not garage apts.), which actually turns out to be one of the densest areas in Houston. I found this out while doing the densest 25 sq/m. If you go to SSP you know what I am talking about. Part of this is from a plethora of apartments, particularly 77081. It turns out that the area below is the densest for a contigous 25 sq/m area. Funny since it is outside of the loop. I have a feeling it is even denser as I bet many people are not counted. If we got rid of 77063 it would nearly be at 10,000 ppsm

77036....7.6....76,146

77074....5.2....39,159

77081....3.2....49,691

77057....4.4....35,491

77063....4.4....27,200

...........24.8....227,687

[RedScare]

While it is probably not 25 sq. miles, there are portions of SW Houston that far exceed 10,000 psm. There is a color coded Census map that shows huge densities in the SW area. I'll see if I can locate it again.

EDIT: Here is a rather small map that shows a section of SW Houston with a density in excess of 22,000 psm.

http://www.westhouston.org/COH%202000%20Pop%20Density.png

[YakuzaIce]

While it is probably not 25 sq. miles, there are portions of SW Houston that far exceed 10,000 psm.  There is a color coded Census map that shows huge densities in the SW area.  I'll see if I can locate it again.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah, I was doing it in this way becasue well according to the "rules" of the thread it had to be zips, but still it is somewhat odd that the densest zipcode in Houston (outside of <.1 ones) is 9 miles outside the DT.

EDIT I thought I read south Houston, this is SW. That black and red blob is 77081.

[RedScare]

Not sure what you mean. My post says "SW Houston".

BTW, I found my PDF file with densities by Census tract. It is very interesting. If someone will tell me how to post a PDF, I'll get it on here.

[YakuzaIce]

Not sure what you mean.  My post says "SW Houston".

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I know, I didn't know why I thought I saw south, I think I thought that because I thought your post was in comparison to the numbers I posted. i.e. that there were other denser areas in Houston.

[RedScare]

BTW, did you come up with anything more dense than 9,067 psm? Or is that your calculation?

[YakuzaIce]

BTW, did you come up with anything more dense than 9,067 psm?  Or is that your calculation?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I guess you are talking about Downtown, it wasn't mine, but I tried a few different ways and I couldn't get higher, I could try again later though. But for the densest 25 sq mile area in Houston it seems to be the area I stated above with 9180.927 people per square mile. I just find this very interesting, I wonder how many other cities have he densest area far from the CBD?

I have a feeling it will be very different though in 2010, because of the infill with townhomes and midrises. And a general re-acceptance of the inner city.

[N Judah]

As the article mentioned, urban density is one thing, slum-creating overcrowding is another and neighborhood associations definitely don't want that. Construction of garage apts. is one way that overcrowding gets started. That one can be prevented by deed restrictions. Multiple families to a small house is much more difficult to control.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think there's a lot more on the neighborhood assn's agenda than simply preventing construction of garage apartments. They exist to impede the natural progression of things and conveniently boost their property values in the process, not help the process of urban densification in good faith. The funny thing is that garage apartments (as found in college towns) are a good way to absorb inflows of extra residents without tearing apart the physical fabric of the neighborhood.

Hopefully L.A. (either by developers running over weak neighborhood assns or by government intervention in the form of Kelo) finds it easier to to make natural progress towards density. It's already expensive enough as it is.

[RedScare]

I guess you are talking about Downtown, it wasn't mine, but I tried a few different ways and I couldn't get higher, I could try again later though.  But for the densest 25 sq mile area in Houston it seems to be the area I stated above with 9180.927 people per square mile.  I just find this very interesting, I wonder how many other cities have he densest area far from the CBD?

I have a feeling it will be very different though in 2010, because of the infill with townhomes and midrises.  And a general re-acceptance of the inner city.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

He actually could have included 77046 in Greenway Plaza, that is adjacent to 77098, and added 471 people to get to 9073 psm. I am not a member of SSP, and I wasn't going to join just to make that point.

If you go by census tracts instead of zip codes, I am confident that you could find a 25 sm section in excess of 10,000 psm.

[Guest danax]

I think there's a lot more on the neighborhood assn's agenda than simply preventing construction of garage apartments.  They exist to impede the natural progression of things and conveniently boost their property values in the process, not help the process of urban densification in good faith.  The funny thing is that garage apartments (as found in college towns) are a good way to absorb inflows of extra residents without tearing apart the physical fabric of the neighborhood.

Hopefully L.A. (either by developers running over weak neighborhood assns or by government intervention in the form of Kelo) finds it easier to to make natural progress towards density.  It's already expensive enough as it is.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, yeah, the associations' sole purpose for existing is to act in the best interest of their neighborhood, not to roll over in the name of urban densification. And in lower-middle class neighborhoods, property values increasing too much is not a good thing, as a lot of people can't afford the higher taxes. In these areas, since the existing housing stock is usually not very attractive to outsiders, allowing townhouses to move in would usually make values jump more than not allowing them. L.A. is full of these areas and so are we.

In an ideal situation, garage apartments are rented to single student types. In reality here in Houston, especially in Hispanic areas, there are families living there. The downside is that you have an instant shortage of parking, meaning risk of parking on the lawn or paving of the lawn. Not to mention just the extra noise, pets etc. that more people bring. Some garage apts. can be turned into 2 apartments, and then you've got real parking problems and potentially 3 central air conditioning units running outside, creating a factory-like sound (this example is real near me). You also get the general negative effects of renters, ie; not caring much about the neighborhood. Proliferation of garage apartments are not the end of the world but it definitely worsens the overall neighborhood ambiance and therefore is mostly a negative.

Neighborhood associations and developers are both part of the natural urban ecosystem and eventually economic forces win out one way or another.