Potential Foundation Problem

[KatyHomeOwner]

a house shouldn't be built with 24" spacing IMO. that's just cheap.

So pretty much I got a cheaply built house? The funny thing is that I backed out of a KB that I had issues during the construction phase which was much cheaper in price and larger and this home is smaller and cost me $22k more and I thought I was getting a better quality house. I guess I now regret not taking the KB which I never thought I would say. Also this weekend my kitchen sink had a leak and now the bottom board of the cabinet under the sink is warped and discolored now.

So all the foundation and ceiling issues are just cosmetic and a sign of poor craftsmanship and there is no way that the builder is obligated to do anything about this?

[cgallagher]

1/2" sheetrock has been installed on 24" centers for years. However, many builders consider is bad practice for this exact reason. Your builder should have issued exact guidelines for which sheetrock issues are considered "warrantable" and "not warrantable". If the deflection qualifies, he should definitely fix it.

The foundation issues are completely normal, especially for a post tension home. You don't need to worry about that. Be very careful when removing any concrete around the cables. They are under 25000 pounds of pressure and if you knick them and they pop, it is likely you will lose any flooring, furniture, or limbs that are in the way. It makes me very nervous that you are going around exposing cables. This can also put your foundation warranty at risk - consult a professional engineer.

Sometimes the cables are not in the center of the 4" slab because they have to be bent around plumbing pipes. And I believe the requirement is that the cable has to be about 1.5" from a pipe. This would explain the fact that the cable is only 0.5" from the top of the concrete.

As for the quality of your home, check out the superintedent in charge of your construction. If he is attentive to you and acts like he cares about the issues you now have, he probably cared when he was building your home. If not, then he probably wasn't concerned when he was building your home. Even great superintends will have a the occaisonal leaky sink.

[KatyHomeOwner]

Well heres an update if anyone is interested.

The builder VP and area manager came to my home last week to look at the issues. They all said it was normal but they were going to send out a P.E. to look at my house. Well they came by yesterday and the guy took no more than 10min to look at my house and said they were all normal and went on for 30min about his life story about concrete. Then he starts talking about the TRCC and arbitration and how I cant sue the builder or the laws that require the builder to pay 3x the amount of the home no longer exist and some other laws and acts that no longer apply. Well.... I never once ever brought up anything to do with attorneys, arbitration, TRCC or anything about going after the builder, only that I plan to have my own P.E. to come out so I thought all these comments coming out of left field was just odd. He also talked how a P.E. doesn't mean they know anything or that the word engineer is meaningless. My thought....umm aren't you a PE?

After all this I wanted the guys business card, well he didn't have one. Then I pressed him on who he worked for as an engineer and his role in the company. Well he finally tells me he isn't an engineer but a forensic inspector. Maybe someone here may know what that is? Well he said he writes up a report to give the engineer. So pretty much the builder hasn't brought in an independent engineer as they told me they would. I contacted a PE that I plan to hire and told him what happened and he said thats all abunch of crap and his report is worthless. Another thing the company name he told me, I looked it up and its an insurance company and I can't find anything that this company has to do with engineering. According to the builder they went to the company that designed the foundation and requested an engineer and they got him. Again according to the builder. But this company I cant find anything on them that they do drafting, architecture or any civil engineering. I am sure that any engineer wouldn't put their neck on the line for a builder especially if the plans were to code on paper and any construction defects wouldn't go back to him but the builder.

Any thoughts on this?

[musicman]

a forensic inspector is definitely not a PE. you should pursue the engineer route! they are giving you the runaround.

whenever someone wants to get their foundation leveled, most companies you see on TV don't employee engineers either. this is why i always tell people to hire a structural engineer so that they will know where the problem lies and what needs to be done to solve it. You just don't put piers randomly as many companies do.

[cgallagher]

Structural Engineering firms typically will staff several "forensic inspectors". These inspectors are trained to read the engineering diagrams and specs and verify that the slab makeup is ready for concrete. Typically they have to go through state administered testing to qualify for this.

Most Engineering firms only have one or two actual PE's on staff. But, they may have 10 inspectors. The PE's are the structural designers and will rarely ever leave their office.

The Engineer will typically sign off on the slab once they have recieved the satisfactory report from their field inspector.

Point is ... Although you may not have seen an actual PE, it is more than likely that the inspector's opinion is correct.

Fact is every home that exists in Houston will have surface fractures in the concrete. It is not a matter of "if" but "when". It has more to do with the way the concrete was cured.

Again looking at you pictures, everything you've shown is extremely common. In fact, the picture you've shown of the outside of the home is not a crack at all, but it is actually a joint between the brick mortar and the slab.

One more note:

Cost range for forensic inspector $35-$75 per visit

Cost range for PE inspection visit $225-$275 per visit

[musicman]

One more note:

Cost range for forensic inspector $35-$75 per visit

Cost range for PE inspection visit $225-$275 per visit

cost range for ignoring problem....PRICELESS

[KatyHomeOwner]

Structural Engineering firms typically will staff several "forensic inspectors". These inspectors are trained to read the engineering diagrams and specs and verify that the slab makeup is ready for concrete. Typically they have to go through state administered testing to qualify for this.

Most Engineering firms only have one or two actual PE's on staff. But, they may have 10 inspectors. The PE's are the structural designers and will rarely ever leave their office.

The Engineer will typically sign off on the slab once they have received the satisfactory report from their field inspector.

Point is ... Although you may not have seen an actual PE, it is more than likely that the inspector's opinion is correct.

Fact is every home that exists in Houston will have surface fractures in the concrete. It is not a matter of "if" but "when". It has more to do with the way the concrete was cured.

Again looking at you pictures, everything you've shown is extremely common. In fact, the picture you've shown of the outside of the home is not a crack at all, but it is actually a joint between the brick mortar and the slab.

One more note:

Cost range for forensic inspector $35-$75 per visit

Cost range for PE inspection visit $225-$275 per visit

Well this inspector didn't even want to look at the problem. I told him let me get my ruler to show him that the cables are less than half and inch below the surface and magnets to show him that the cable is at the surface across the entire rooms and he didn't want me to. Like I said he spent 10min walking through my house and didn't even bend down to look. He spent more time talking about his experience with concrete, nothing to do with my house and about how I cant sue the builder when I haven't ever made that assertion all I have done was raised the question if this is an issue or not and how we can fix it, not bulldoze the house. This guy sounded like an advocate or an attorney for the builder than an independent engineer..er .. inspector.

What is also interesting is that he divulged that my neighbor is having the same problem and that they have done boring and that this inspector said everything is normal over there. Well I told my neighbor tonight and I showed him my house and he showed me his and found our problem is the same but he chiseled away more of the cables than I did. He also found that out of 5 bores only 1 of them had 4" of concrete and the rest was 2-3" and that there hasn't been any sand in any of the soil samples of the bores and in this area there is suppose to be a 60/40 mix. According to the company that was suppose to test the concrete, there isn't sufficient enough of concrete to test because the slab was so shallow and they need 3 good samples. I also found that this inspector kept telling me the wrong name of the company. The abbreviations were correct but the words in the middle were wrong. So I now found the name of the company that I was able to get from my neighbor. They do deal with loans, insurance, but they have a side part that does engineering. I plan on calling the company in regards to this guys visit. This engineer, I assume, wouldn't agree with this guys behavior during this inspection.

The crack on the side of the foundation is exactly at the same location of the crack in the garage that spans the entire garage. I measured both cracks from the front to the cracks and both were the exact measurement. Just pointing that out. I do have an expansion joint in the brick which is a few feet away from that location in the photo. I have brick at the expansion joint that has detached for the mortar. Also the original pictures are 3mb each. The crack on the side goes from the mortar down into the ground.

I asked to see the reports of the inspections of the foundation before, tension cable testing, and during the pour and the builder said that they don't have to have it done and no builder does. According to the engineer that I'll have out said that the builder cant get insured unless he has those inspections. The insurance is Home of Texas or RWC is what the builder refers them to. I will say that much on names at this time. I know some people been interested in who this builder is.

The entire way that this builder been handling this is just strange to me, or the people involved at least. Now they want to focus on all the other issues I have had since day one which is nice. They haven't done anything yet but they are being assertive on trying to get these things done and trying to schedule their crew, so they say.

Also the engineer told me there are codes for these foundations, PTI or Post-Tension Institute.

[cgallagher]

I asked to see the reports of the inspections of the foundation before, tension cable testing, and during the pour and the builder said that they don't have to have it done and no builder does.

OK, this is a little disturbing. Most builders will have these inspections done. Your builder is not telling you the truth.

Any reliable 3rd party warranty company would never insure a foundation without the satisfactory Pre Pour, and Tensioning reports. They usually won't require an "inspection during the pour"

Technically, these inspections are not required by law. But the TRCC has made new laws, and starting in September of this year, all builders will be required to have these inspections done in the areas without municiple inspections.

If your neighbor is only getting 2-3" concrete core depths, you may have a reason for concern.

[musicman]

OK, this is a little disturbing. Most builders will have these inspections done. Your builder is not telling you the truth.

Any reliable 3rd party warranty company would never insure a foundation without the satisfactory Pre Pour, and Tensioning reports. They usually won't require an "inspection during the pour"

Technically, these inspections are not required by law. But the TRCC has made new laws, and starting in September of this year, all builders will be required to have these inspections done in the areas without municiple inspections.

If your neighbor is only getting 2-3" concrete core depths, you may have a reason for concern.

i think that's what he's been pointing out the whole thread, many builders don't build a quality product and try and weasel their way out.

[linyer]

If you think what this person is experiencing is out of the norm I will tell you to look at Homeowners For better Building and Homeowners Against Deficient Dwellings. The problems are getting worse. A recent editorial by Richard Weekley ( Dave's brother) in the Chron. last week prompted numerous responses about the homebuilding industry.

TRCC has yet to hit a big builder. The so called fines, most of which are for late registration are given to smaller builders. One builder was hit with a fine for fraud and deception. The fine, $500 and 2 years probation, but the complaints keep rolling in.

People basically have to take things in their own hands.

When my problems arose, my jerky builder called in an engineer to do testing. The results showed problems and the builder actually dismissed the findings. Did that twice. It is a long bumpy road when you end up with a bad house and your builder refuses to act ethically.

[cgallagher]

i think that's what he's been pointing out the whole thread, many builders don't build a quality product and try and weasel their way out.

Yeah, I remember the previous post of the guy with standing water on his 2nd floor patio. These stories are disturbing to hear.

I know the recent downturn in the suburb construction market has caused many of the volume builders to cut back on staff and services. This in turn will ultimately result in lower quality construction. It is a shaky time for them. The big guys are trying to provide low cost housing, all the while construction material pricing is going up and sales are flat.

I'm really suspicious of the volume builders right now.

[musicman]

I know the recent downturn in the suburb construction market has caused many of the volume builders to cut back on staff and services. This in turn will ultimately result in lower quality construction. I'm really suspicious of the volume builders right now.

Recent? most builders are trying to maximize their profit which results in poor workmanship even in the higher end ones. there's one over on vassar that they paid over a million for and the place flooded after a heavy rain.

[cgallagher]

Recent? most builders are trying to maximize their profit

which results in poor workmanship even in the higher end ones.

...

Hearing about all these problems, I guess you have to hire a 3rd party company to watch your builder. There are too many Yahoo's out there pretending to build homes.

[KatyHomeOwner]

I contacted the engineer who the inspector worked for and told him about how he acted during his inspection of 10min and didn't let me show him how close the cables were to the surface with a ruler or how they stretch along the entire rooms with a magnet. Also how he gave me legal advice that only helps the builder, and was incorrect from what I researched,when no legal opinion was asked. I told him he seemed to be an employee or advocate for the builder than a representative of an independent engineering company. This inspector didn't even have a note pad. I said all this while he had me on speaker phone with the inspector in the room. The engineer didn't really say much and thanked me for the info and the inspector couldnt recall what he looked at. I don't know if he was surprised by his inspectors actions or surprised that I would call them out on this. He asked if he could see the report from the engineer that I will have out but if his guy would of done the job he should of he would of had a report to reference. This engineer was the one who designs the foundations for this builder also. I don't see why this company would go about this situation like they are if they have nothing to hide. I am sure that his designs are to code and that the builder is the one at fault, if there is fault, since they didn't make/pour per his specs. Why would they play this game? Or is it perhaps just a bad inspector? Also what I found later is that the engineer is the VP of the company, and the inspector in question is the CEO of the company...does that make sense?

[musicman]

This engineer was the one who designs the foundations for this builder also. I don't see why this company would go about this situation like they are if they have nothing to hide. I am sure that his designs are to code and that the builder is the one at fault

how are you sure of this? His design may be good, but you have no idea whether it was executed properly. is the proper tension applied, etc.

[aggie92]

...

Hearing about all these problems, I guess you have to hire a 3rd party company to watch your builder. There are too many Yahoo's out there pretending to build homes.

Totally agree. We built a house a year ago and are still dealing with issues of the builder not knowing what he was doing and no one other than me watching them and making sure that it was built correctly. If I ever build another house (doubt it), I will have a 3rd party inspector checking at key points to ensure that the builder did his job. You can't rely on the city inspectors as they don't always check everything and most homeowners don't have the time or knowledge to build a house - which is why you hire a builder anyway....

[RCH99]

After reading this post and all of the replies, I thought I would propose a scenerio that would possibly explain the proximity of the cables and wire ties to the finished floor surface.

If this home is in a typical entry level price range, the slab pour was probably tailgated, meaning that the mixers all backed up to the form and the concrete was placed directly into the form via the truck chute. Most production builders forego the $650.00 - $900.00 expense of a pump truck. As a result, the pour is a lot more labor intensive and difficult from the concrete finishers standpoint. It requires them to drag the wet mud around with with rakes and screeds to get to the center and any other area that the chutes can't reach. The pour takes a lot longer because they have to orchestrate the movement of the trucks in and out. As a result, one of their favorite things to do, in direct conflict with the engineers specifications, is to add as much water as they can get away with to the concrete while still in the truck. This facilitates two things, it turns the concrete to "soup" ( as described by the posters neighbor ) and it makes it much easier to work with for the finisher. It will flow throughout the beams and therefore relieve them of the need to drag and place it as necessary.

I would propose that the exposed cables and their close proximity to the surface is the result of them being displaced from their starting locations ( hopefully straight, firmly tight, and sitting on 2" chairs ) by the finisher allowing this wet mud to be blasted into the form from the truck chute with little regard for what was happening to the integrity of the slab design. Unfortunately, the pour was scheduled for "late at night" per the poster. It was probably one of several, and ran late. Everybody was probably more concerned with going home than taking care to insure a proper placement.

In addition to the displaced cables, the addition of significant amount of water, changes the way the concrete cures. Once the finishers have done their work and remove the finishing machines from the slab, things probably looked pretty good. The results of the excessive amount of water in the concrete don't show until later in the form of shrinkage cracks, which are evident in the pictures that were posted. They result from the excess moisture trying to find its way out of the finished surface. As any engineer will quickly state..."they don't impact the structural integrity of the slab", but they sure look crappy.

These statements are my opinion only, based on what I had read above. Unfortunately, I don't know what to do to help you get your builder to acknowledge that they did a poor job in supervising the placement of your slab.

Edit: I went back and re-read that you did have a 10 year warranty on structural components provided by Home of Texas. To my knowledge, all 3rd party warranty providers require the builder to provide a pre-pour, pour ( with an engineer or inspector on-site during placement ), tendon stress , cover-up, and a final (with slab elevations shot and documented ) inspection in order to issue a warranty to the homeowner. Therefore, it's curious that the builder stated that "nobody" has to provide these inspections. Did you receive a package of information explaining the parameters of the warranty from Home of Texas. The only reason this is important is that your builder will probably take little to no action on the issues you have now, however, if in the future ( 5,7,9 years from now) you do have a slab failure you will be dealing with Home and not your builder.

[KatyHomeOwner]

I have just found out that not only the engineering company that did the plans for this builders foundation for my community, they do all the plans for all their communities over Texas. As I mentioned that the builder had this engineering company to bring out an inspector to inspect my foundation. Also I found out that the engineering company that made the plans for the foundation also did the inspection of the foundation before it was poured. So the company that designed the foundation and inspected pre-pour, were the ones that came out here to inspect the current issue and took 10min to look at it and told me this is all normal. To me this would seem to be a conflict of interest for the builder. How would the TRCC look at his report since they were so involved with the house to begin with? To me both the builder and now this engineering company seem to have something to hide.

I know this thread has gone off course from questions about the foundation to me blabbing about my current situation with the builder over the foundation. If any admin locks this thread thats ok but I feel this site has lot of experienced people and I enjoy reading your opinions.