Ez Tags

[CDeb]

All these toll roads, and yet I've still yet to see a reduction in the gasoline tax, which supposedly pays for highways

Yes, you have. The federal gas tax has not increased in 14 years (and I think the state tax has been longer than that) and therefore, due to inflation, you are currently paying approximately half of what you were paying then in terms of purchasing power. On top of that, only about half of the state gas tax money being collected is actually spent on roads. Some goes to education, some goes to the DPS, some goes to other areas.

...hmmm....now txdot wants to turn existing roads into tollways...hmmm....

Which ones?

[liammclaren]

Which ones?

let's see, 183, 290, 71, 455, 1

[Mark F. Barnes]

He's whinning about an on going deal by the Central Texas Toll Authority. The are trying to do what Houston did for Beltway 8. They are in desperate need of bringing congestion relief to I-35 and surrounding arterial roads in Travis and Williamson Counties.

[liammclaren]

The are trying to do what Houston did for Beltway 8.

Beltway 8 was built as a toll road. I'm talking about turning existing roads into toll roads.

[Mark F. Barnes]

Before you start overly complaining about "Sooo Many toll roads" Go live in Pennsylvania and New Jersey for a while. You'll then learn what it's like to have "Soooooo many toll roads".

So is your beef with TxDOT or is it with CTTA? Are you even sure? And they are paying for all the widening and improvement they made on these "existing roads". And like I said bring congestion relief to I-35 and surrounding arterial roads in Travis and Williamson Counties. Austin outgrew it's existing road system and they are trying to help with the "HUGE" amount of traffic associated with that growth, on top of the fact that there is a huge amount of thru-traffic that is just traveling through on I-35, that add to the already congested area.

[CDeb]

let's see, 183, 290, 71, 455, 1

Ummmm, no.

All of those facilities are non-freeway facilities (basically frontage roads). When the freeway facilities are built, they will be tolled, but the frontage roads will remain free. They are not "turning existing roads into toll roads." All existing free travel lanes will continue to remain free.

[liammclaren]

Ummmm, no.

All of those facilities are non-freeway facilities (basically frontage roads). When the freeway facilities are built, they will be tolled, but the frontage roads will remain free. They are not "turning existing roads into toll roads." All existing free travel lanes will continue to remain free.

AWESOME!! The frontage roads will remain free!! Isn't that nice of txdot? Doesn't change the fact that some portion of 290 between Houston and Austin will be a toll road where it was previously not. Whether it is previously technically "freeway" or "frontage road" is of little relevance, it's still 290, it was previously not a toll road and it will now be a toll road.

I am absolutely stunned that there are actually people that support this. You must work for txdot or some company or agency associated with it.

[liammclaren]

Before you start overly complaining about "Sooo Many toll roads" Go live in Pennsylvania and New Jersey for a while. You'll then learn what it's like to have "Soooooo many toll roads".

So is your beef with TxDOT or is it with CTTA? Are you even sure? And they are paying for all the widening and improvement they made on these "existing roads". And like I said bring congestion relief to I-35 and surrounding arterial roads in Travis and Williamson Counties. Austin outgrew it's existing road system and they are trying to help with the "HUGE" amount of traffic associated with that growth, on top of the fact that there is a huge amount of thru-traffic that is just traveling through on I-35, that add to the already congested area.

My beef is with being taxed twice to travel the same road. You want all roads to be toll roads, fine, do away with the gasoline tax.

[CDeb]

Doesn't change the fact that some portion of 290 between Houston and Austin will be a toll road where it was previously not. Whether it is previously technically "freeway" or "frontage road" is of little relevance, it's still 290, it was previously not a toll road and it will now be a toll road.

If you do not wish to pay a toll, you will have EXACTLY the same service on US 290 that you have now, as it is currently NOT a freeway. It has traffic signals and side streets entering at a fairly high density just as a frontage road would. What exists of US 290 right now will remain free. Upgraded service will be tolled. So if you want to say that "they're turning an existing road into a toll road" as a talking point that means absolutely nothing, by all means, continue.

You must work for txdot or some company or agency associated with it.

Maybe I just don't let anti-toll fanaticism cloud my understanding of the facts involved.

[liammclaren]

anti-toll fanaticism

Quite funny actually. Like I said, I don't enjoy being taxed once at the pump to pay for roads, and again when I drive on them. You obviously do. Oh but they use the gas tax for other things, right? Ok, so how about we get rid of it? I'm sure you're all for that right?

Of course you'll say I don't have to drive on 290. Quite true, I don't. But what happens when all new road construction is tolled? Are you really naive enough to think that won't happen?

[CDeb]

Like I said, I don't enjoy being taxed once at the pump to pay for roads, and again when I drive on them. You obviously do.

It's not necessarily enjoyment as it is understanding that what I pay in gas tax is not paying for the transportation system that I drive on and the difference must be made up in tolls. Infrastructure is not free and if I want to enjoy the benefits, I have to share in the costs.

Also, it is understanding that my gasoline taxes are not paying for toll roads. Tolls are paying for toll roads. Therefore, I'm not being taxed twice for that road. In fact, if I don't drive on it, I'm not being taxed AT ALL for it.

Oh but they use the gas tax for other things, right? Ok, so how about we get rid of it? I'm sure you're all for that right?

I'd be very much in favor of greatly reducing (but not abolishing) the gas tax and making all freeways tolled. As it currently stands, 13 cents of every dollar I pay in federal gasoline taxes goes to other states to pay for other roads that it is highly unlikely that I will ever drive on. Of the federal reimbursements that Texas does receive, as well as the portion of the state gasoline tax that is not used on other things, a healthy chunk of that is used on roads in other parts of the state that, again, I will likely never drive on.

On the other hand, I haven't payed, nor will I ever pay, one red cent to construct a toll road that I've never driven on. The more I use a toll road, the more I contribute to the cost of its construction, as I believe it should be. I think some of the gasoline tax should be retained as it simply is not practical to install tolling infrastructure along non-freeway facilities.

Of course you'll say I don't have to drive on 290. Quite true, I don't. But what happens when all new road construction is tolled? Are you really naive enough to think that won't happen?

On the contrary, I hope it does. Additional freeway lane miles are needed, and they have to be paid for somehow. Because the alternative to tolling these roads that I won't ever drive on is to massively increase the gasoline tax, which I WILL have to pay whether I drive on them or not, and I'm sure you're all for that, right?

[Mark F. Barnes]

Obviously a kvetch CDeb....... if it's not this it will e something else.

[liammclaren]

In fact, if I don't drive on it, I'm not being taxed AT ALL for it.

Keep telling yourself that.

And you say you're not for abolishing the gas tax, but you do hope that all new road construction is tolled. So yes you do favor double taxation.

Obviously a kvetch CDeb....... if it's not this it will e something else.

You're right, man, what am I doing actually caring about things like this? I should just go back to watching football, drinking beer, and rolling over and taking it.

[CDeb]

And you say you're not for abolishing the gas tax, but you do hope that all new road construction is tolled. So yes you do favor double taxation.

Read my post again carefully. I said that I want to reduce the gas tax, but keep some of it to pay for roads that cannot be tolled. Tolls pay for toll roads, taxes pay for non-toll roads. No reasonable person can possibly call that double taxation.

[Mark F. Barnes]

Keyword- Reasonable

[CDeb]

Keep telling yourself that.

So you are saying that there are toll facilities being paid for with gasoline tax dollars? I'm sure it has happened, but that is far from the norm. In fact, toll road authorities would prefer to build their facilities without tax dollars and the strings that come attached to them, as they can build their facilities much more quickly that way.

Now, tax dollars do generally guarantee the bonds that pay for the construction, but then the tax dollars only come into play if toll revenues do not cover the debt service. That hasn't been a problem in Texas that I'm aware of. HCTRA can now guarantee bonds with revenue from their other facilities.

[liammclaren]

Keyword- Reasonable

Well of course, we all know that any opposition to toll roads is unreasonable, right? But what about the sign on the Beltway that says "FAILURE TO PAY FINE WILL RESULT IN FINE OR VEHICLE SEIZURE"? Is vehicle seizure as the result of failure to pay a $1.50 toll your definition of reasonable?

[CDeb]

Well of course, we all know that any opposition to toll roads is unreasonable, right? But what about the sign on the Beltway that says "FAILURE TO PAY FINE WILL RESULT IN FINE OR VEHICLE SEIZURE"? Is vehicle seizure as the result of failure to pay a $1.50 toll your definition of reasonable?

I smell herring.

And it's a red one.

[Mark F. Barnes]

Well of course, we all know that any opposition to toll roads is unreasonable, right? But what about the sign on the Beltway that says "FAILURE TO PAY FINE WILL RESULT IN FINE OR VEHICLE SEIZURE"? Is vehicle seizure as the result of failure to pay a $1.50 toll your definition of reasonable?

Like I said before kvetch, now you are complaining that people that don't pay their tolls will be fined? Or that people who continue to not pay these fines end up having their vehicle seized in court? What is it now pray tell? And you wonder why someone is leaning toward the word chronic when it comes to these posts.

First off to first have an argument, you first need a few tools work with, such as a complete understanding on how the thing you are arguing about even works. Secondly you really need to be an active participant in the thing in question. You must really not have either, so I really do not understand your point, since you really have none. Thus the textbook definition of kvetch.

[liammclaren]

Like I said before kvetch, now you are complaining that people that don't pay their tolls will be fined? Or that people who continue to not pay these fines end up having their vehicle seized in court? What is it now pray tell? And you wonder why someone is leaning toward the word chronic when it comes to these posts.

First off to first have an argument, you first need a few tools work with, such as a complete understanding on how the thing you are arguing about even works. Secondly you really need to be an active participant in the thing in question. You must really not have either, so I really do not understand your point, since you really have none. Thus the textbook definition of kvetch.

Uh, ok, let me spell it out for you--you were the one that implied that anyone who doesn't like toll roads is unreasonable. So obviously you think that the proliferation of toll roads is in fact reasonable. I disagree, and by way of explanation offered one aspect of toll roads that is extremely unreasonable, namely, the potential confiscation of private property that is worth in most cases probably at least 1000 times the amount of the toll that wasn't paid. Easy enough?

[Mark F. Barnes]

You really are all over the place with this, you are now back to screaming about toll roads, throwing around words like "proliferation", I guess in an attempt to sound more intelligent or whatever, yet you still have no real point. You scream you are being taxed twice, when in fact you have no idea what you are talking about. Toll Roads are toll roads because they were not built with tax money, they were built on bonds that are being paid back in they way of tolls. This in fact only taxes the people who actually used the road and not everyone who buys a gallon of fuel. And by the way, Texas has some of the lowest taxed fuel in the nation. Then a big part of fuel tax is a federal excise tax. So what is your point along that line.

And then the pendulum swings the other way and you are crying foul because they posted on these privately funded roads, that until paid off are still basically private property, that if you trespass on them, without paying the tolls, you will be fined, which in turn could result in you vehicle being seized if you don't pay the fines. Take your $20K vehicle in to a mechanic shop and have a $200 water pump put on it. Now refuse to pay the man for it, next thing you know, it's his vehicle. Happens all the time. It is being seized for theft of services and he will file a lien against your vehicle, same thing will happen with the toll roads. Your vehicle can possibly be seized for theft of services, covered by the same laws. What is it you are not getting? What is your point. Do you still have one, or has the medication kicked in for the day and you can obsess about something else another day?

And by the way, the thread is about EZ Tag's let's try and stay on topic next time.

[liammclaren]

You scream you are being taxed twice, when in fact you have no idea what you are talking about. Toll Roads are toll roads because they were not built with tax money, they were built on bonds that are being paid back in they way of tolls.

Sure, toll roads weren't built with tax money, but they're paid for with it. Let me see if I can put it simply, since that's evidently necessary: a toll is an excise tax, period. The gasoline tax is a sales tax, period. They both purport to serve the same purpose, which is the creation and maintenance of roads and highways. Get it? Repeat after me, two taxes, same stated purpose. Two taxes, same purpose. Double taxation. Why is this hard? How about this: can I expect to see tax free gas stations along toll roads? Will I get a rebate from the state and federal govt. for every gallon of gas I used while driving on a tollway? Don't think so. Everyone who drives on a tollway is being taxed twice for its use, end of story.

And if you really believe that all the money collected from tollways goes solely to repay the investment made in their construction, you're crazy. If that were true, there would come a time when the loan would be paid back, and the tolls would disappear--yeah right...

[CDeb]

Gas taxes do not pay for tolls roads! Why is THIS hard for you?

Gas taxes pay for "free" roads. Tolls pay for toll roads. Two "taxes". Two different purposes. Why is this so hard for you?

In my best Church Lady voice: "Could it be.....fanaticism?"

And if you really believe that all the money collected from tollways goes solely to repay the investment made in their construction, you're crazy. If that were true, there would come a time when the loan would be paid back, and the tolls would disappear--yeah right...

When you build a house, is that the last money you've ever spent on it? No. It must be maintained. And there is a cost associated with that.

Why do you think a road is no different?

[Mark F. Barnes]

Sure, toll roads weren't built with tax money, but they're paid for with it. Let me see if I can put it simply, since that's evidently necessary: a toll is an excise tax, period. The gasoline tax is a sales tax, period. They both purport to serve the same purpose, which is the creation and maintenance of roads and highways. Get it? Repeat after me, two taxes, same stated purpose. Two taxes, same purpose. Double taxation. Why is this hard? How about this: can I expect to see tax free gas stations along toll roads? Will I get a rebate from the state and federal govt. for every gallon of gas I used while driving on a tollway? Don't think so. Everyone who drives on a tollway is being taxed twice for its use, end of story.

And if you really believe that all the money collected from tollways goes solely to repay the investment made in their construction, you're crazy. If that were true, there would come a time when the loan would be paid back, and the tolls would disappear--yeah right...

You really just don't get it do you? Toll is a Toll, it is not an excise tax or tax of any kind. HCTRA and the CTTA operate as private entities, much like the Untied States Postal Service, not government agencies. Tax is something the government does. I guess you think that when you put a stamp on a letter you are being taxed twice also. Based on your logic one can only assume that. Tolls are, in HCTRA's case, their attempt to recoup the 900 million dollars in municipal bonds that were released to them in 1983 to build and maintain 103 miles of roadways, namely Sam Houston Parkway and the Hardy Toll Road. All of which was approved by Harris County voters. So what's your beef again?

To answer the second part, I guess you aren't old enough to remember the Dallas/Ft. Worth Turnpike.

Dallas and Ft. Worth made a proposal to have an expressway built between them, to connect the two just after WWII. However the state comptroller and engineers could not justify the expense at the time so it was repeatedly turned down. In the 1950's the State formed the Texas Turnpike Authority, which laid the foundation of all the Toll authorities you see today. Anyway they built a 30 mile Toll Freeway between the two cities to link the down-towns with one another directly. It operated as a tollway for 20 years and in 1977, was paid off and The State assumed maintenance responsibilities with federal interstate funding when it was adopted as part of I-30, and there was no longer a need for tolls and the toll booths were removed and it is free to this day. The DFW Turnpike was the first of it's kind in the state to build a major roadway, with alternative funding and worked out pretty well I'd say. So the answer to your question is yes they will, if the State will assume maintenance responsibilities.