An overlooked contributer to Houston traffic?

[HankHillsBrother]

Preface: This is not meant as a political statement but a simple engineering question.

If you could magically snap your fingers and instantly get all of the vehicles currently being driven in the Houston area by "undocumented workers" off the roads how much would traffic improve? These people are not supposed to be here to begin with and it's like they are helping to clog up the roads. I believe this is a valid question. This group of motorists seems to be a large contributor to bad traffic. I ask this based on my observations on a daily basis of the vast majority, if not all, slow downs, stalled cars, towed cars, 20 guys in the back of a weighed down truck struggling to get up an overpass, broken down wrecks on the shoulder causing rubber necking, and people driving 20 miles an hour for fear of getting pulled over being driven by what is a very safe guess to be illegal aliens. I think its intellectually dishonest to deny that this is an issue. But how can it be dealt with? It won't and it will only get greater as our population is regularly said to be growing by what two million people in the next twenty years? You can't seriously believe most of those people aren't going to be illegal immigrants.

I am not a racist trying to stir things up. Please don't make this a political issue I'm not going to respond I am simply interested in the science of traffic and was wondering how things work. I never hear anything about this topic because it's probably not PC.

[editor]

I think your question could be better stated as "If you could magically snap your fingers and instantly get all of the vehicles currently being driven in the Houston area by people who are not legally entitled to drive off the roads how much would traffic improve?"

That way you can not only remove the illegal aliens, but also people who have had their licenses revoked, people driving without insurance, and other menaces from the roads.

[RedScare]

It would seem to me that the answer to your question would be 0. You complain of "undocumented workers" clogging the streets. These workers are employed by Houston area businesses to build roads, frame houses, mow lawns, clean buildings, and work in restaurants, among other things. Setting aside for a moment that these workers own a drastically smaller percentage of vehicles than the wealthier population at large (you even stated that they often travel 20 to a truck), if they were to magically disappear, they would magically be replaced by other legal workers. The reason these workers are here is that there is work to do. If they were gone, the work would not leave with them. Food would still need to be cooked, dishes need to be washed, and lawns mowed.

What would help clear out congestion better is a massive recession. This occurred in the mid-80s, and freeway congestion lessened considerably. This would have the effect of sending the jobs away with the illegals. With fewer jobs, fewer people would need to drive their Suburbans to work alone (or at all). This would have a far greater effect than losing one pickup for every 20 illegals sent home.

The fact is, your observation is skewed on many levels. Illegals tend to concentrate in poorer inner city areas. They do not use the freeways as often as wealthier white suburbanites. Owning fewer cars, they often use mass transit, bicycles or their feet. They are often driven to jobsites by the contractor, or they walk to restaurants or other nearby jobs. The illegals looking for work tend to congregate near intersections and Home Depots. They rarely, if ever, have vehicles. They get into the one the contractor shows up in. And, as for their driving habits, I am far more fearful of Americans driving 6,000 SUVs while talking on a cell phone than slow driving illegals.

[Guest Marty]

Preface: This is not meant as a political statement but a simple engineering question

If you could magically snap your fingers and instantly get all of the vehicles currently being driven in the Houston area by "undocumented workers" off the roads how much would traffic improve?

Simple answer, It would improve traffic alot by default less people less traffic.

Edited July 15, 2007 by Marty

[TheNiche]

Preface: This is not meant as a political statement but a simple engineering question.

If you could magically snap your fingers and instantly get all of the vehicles currently being driven in the Houston area by "undocumented workers" off the roads how much would traffic improve? These people are not supposed to be here to begin with and it's like they are helping to clog up the roads. I believe this is a valid question. This group of motorists seems to be a large contributor to bad traffic. I ask this based on my observations on a daily basis of the vast majority, if not all, slow downs, stalled cars, towed cars, 20 guys in the back of a weighed down truck struggling to get up an overpass, broken down wrecks on the shoulder causing rubber necking, and people driving 20 miles an hour for fear of getting pulled over being driven by what is a very safe guess to be illegal aliens. I think its intellectually dishonest to deny that this is an issue. But how can it be dealt with? It won't and it will only get greater as our population is regularly said to be growing by what two million people in the next twenty years? You can't seriously believe most of those people aren't going to be illegal immigrants.

I am not a racist trying to stir things up. Please don't make this a political issue I'm not going to respond I am simply interested in the science of traffic and was wondering how things work. I never hear anything about this topic because it's probably not PC.

Red made some very astute comments, but his conclusion of "0" is incorrect. Traffic would improve, but so would the cost of living. As it became more expensive to eat out, get lawn services, maid services, or other low-skill tasks done, people would do more of these kinds of things themselves or not at all (where possible). It would improve traffic, but at a pretty significant cost in other factors that influence quality of life. Think of it as a cost-based recession, which as Red pointed out, does decrease traffic on the roads. IMO, we'd be worse off for it.

[Guest Marty]

Red made some very astute comments, but his conclusion of "0" is incorrect. Traffic would improve, but so would the cost of living. As it became more expensive to eat out, get lawn services, maid services, or other low-skill tasks done, people would do more of these kinds of things themselves or not at all (where possible). It would improve traffic, but at a pretty significant cost in other factors that influence quality of life. Think of it as a cost-based recession, which as Red pointed out, does decrease traffic on the roads. IMO, we'd be worse off for it.

Mow your lawn yourself, clean up after you self "maid" this reminds me of the neighbors dogs that bark all day long because there never anybody home. lazy,lazy,lazy

Edit I am not talking about niche in my post

Edited July 15, 2007 by Marty

[ricco67]

Preface: This is not meant as a political statement but a simple engineering question.

If you could magically snap your fingers and instantly get all of the vehicles currently being driven in the Houston area by "undocumented workers" off the roads how much would traffic improve? These people are not supposed to be here to begin with and it's like they are helping to clog up the roads. I believe this is a valid question. This group of motorists seems to be a large contributor to bad traffic. I ask this based on my observations on a daily basis of the vast majority, if not all, slow downs, stalled cars, towed cars, 20 guys in the back of a weighed down truck struggling to get up an overpass, broken down wrecks on the shoulder causing rubber necking, and people driving 20 miles an hour for fear of getting pulled over being driven by what is a very safe guess to be illegal aliens. I think its intellectually dishonest to deny that this is an issue. But how can it be dealt with? It won't and it will only get greater as our population is regularly said to be growing by what two million people in the next twenty years? You can't seriously believe most of those people aren't going to be illegal immigrants.

I am not a racist trying to stir things up. Please don't make this a political issue I'm not going to respond I am simply interested in the science of traffic and was wondering how things work. I never hear anything about this topic because it's probably not PC.

For a simple engineering answer, you seem to pick a rather complex question.

First off, I drive about an insane amount of time on the roads/freeways here in Houston (I think I'm averaging 4k miles a month), and I've had more problems with people from the burbs that have a tendency not being able to match the flow of traffic, or not paying attention doing a variety of reasons of talking on the phone (I rarely talk while driving), Eating (Guilty), maintaining an animated conversation with the person next to them, READING or WRITING notes. These activities that I've seen generally occur in newer makes and models cars, so make any assumption you wish.

The ones that have a tendency have a problem with maintaining proper flow of traffic ("SLOW drivers") are generally drive slightly older vehicles (8-15 yrs old), that are generally older citizens.

The "lawn care vehicles" are usually the more cautious by the fact that they driving their lively hood and/or their co-workers in the back and are generally safe drivers. The people you see with 20 guys in the back is obviously an exaggeration, but since you mention it, it's their way of "car pooling." Having dealt with (and I think quite a few of us have) lawn people, I've known a number of them take metro, carpool, or park at a central location. I highly doubt you'd care for a single car for every person working on your lawn to park in front of your home (It would, however, make for an interesting sight to be sure).

The broken down cars vary more than perhaps you realize, I've seen everything from a hooptie (unidentifiable wreck of a car that manages to work at times) to a ferrari (I wished I had a picture of that) so your assumption that illegal aliens are the only ones that have break downs is also mistaken.

In regards to "accidents", you should take a closer look at the mangled messes you see on the roadway, you will see newer vehicles involved. I've rarely came across a "Mexican mobile"(use your own definition), in a serious accident.

Now trucks are an interesting matter that you bring up. According to one of the Trucking enforcement people I've talked to last year, I brought up this very issue, he said that it's mostly local (COH, Regional, state) truckers. For a variety of reasons, due to improper maintenance, loading(balance and overweight), or truckers that simply don't rest enough.

Could you perhaps enlighten us to your commuting/travel routes around Houston that gives you such an interesting knowledge of our roadways and how many miles you drive on a given week/month?

Before you ask: I drive Downtown, Montrose, Eastex, I-45 (north and south), southwest, Airport, Kingwood, Woodlands, and Sugarland.

I'm afraid you opened very interesting can of worms, I just hope you're able to properly defend the issues you brought up. We can be a very lively bunch when it comes to debates.

[CDeb]

For reasons that Red stated, such folks probably do not make up a significant proportion of freeways drivers. Even on local streets, where that proportion is larger, it isn't huge. Many key intersections in the city are so oversaturated, those few cars really don't make much of a difference.

PS - Red, there are a lot of wealthy folks out here in the burbs who ain't white. The horra!