Houston19514

PG2

Talk of getting a superbowl in town started as soon as talk of

getting a new NFL team started. The superbowl was the goal from the

get go of McNair's desire to bring back the NFL. I can't speak for

Bob but the city and businesses which would make money from a superbowl

were salivating from the start.

Of course, the super bowl did not come until 2 years after the stadium was built. The locations for the game prior to that were already finalized way before Houston

became viable for a superbowl. I would also immagine they wanted to

get the bugs out of the building before hosting a bowl game.  The contracts to host the week long festivities for the game require much competition and it is a long process which can take up to and over a year.  It was impossible to have a superbowl in town the year the stadium opened. 

You are somewhat right about the land west of the staudium having been

mostly unoccupied. South Main was full of businesses all of the way from

the loop to where it hits OST.  There was a large area of land behind the businesses on S. Main all of the way to Kirby which was undeveloped.  Had the plan not been gentrification the parking lots and Texans practive facility could still

have been built without disturbing existing business on South Main.  If the people did not want to hurt their virgin eyes a wall could have been put up on the west side of the lot.

Well, yes, yes, yes. There is no denying that the SuperBowl was in the dreams of both Bob McNair and the leadership of Houston before the Texans started playing (and I never suggested otherwise). But it is quite a stretch of logic to say that, therefore the site and design of the Reliant Stadium and Reliant Park complex were "developed fast to get that super bowl in". In fact, the selection of the Astrodome grounds for the stadium site, and the basic design of Reliant Park, was a done-deal well before the Texans were even awarded their NFL franchise; this was not a rushed deal by any stretch of the imagination.

I don't really know what your point is regarding the few businesses that were, in your memory, bought out along Main Street to make way for the Main Street entrance to Reliant Park and additional parking. (I must say, it's just a little difficult to follow your arguments... one line you're complaining about the lack of parking and the next you're complaining about moves they made to increase parking.) Was eminent domain used to buy out these businesses (other than those who you claim were removed by eminent domain for the widening of Main Street)? If not, I can not see what the issue or complaint is (and I'll return to the whole free market issue in a later response). (And I think there will be an opportunity to discuss the matter of eminent domain for road widening in my comments on a later paragraph.)

This is getting very tedious, so I'll just take one paragraph at a time...

I don't know what this mythical "Houston Sports Authority" is that you keep referring to... Do you perhaps mean the Houston Sports Assosciation?

That would be the private group that owned the Houston Astros...

and signed a 40-year lease on the facility in 1961. Astrodome Lease Please note I never said the Astros OWNED the Astrodome. The Astrodome is and always has been owned by Harris County. If you are meaning to refer to the Houston Sports ASSOCIATION, you are absolutely right, they did oversee every aspect of the dome. But, as I've demonstrated, the Houston Sports Association WAS the same entity as the Astros.

Now, I have not been able to track down yet the exact relationship of the Oilers to the dome. But if the Astros have the primary lease, they would certainly have an interest in keeping the Oilers happy and playing in the facility. (The Astros, or Houston Sports Association wouldn't make much money on concessions etc if the Oilers were playing in Jacksonville, which they were threatening to do at the time of the remodeling.) That would explain why they would go along with the removal of the scoreboard and expansion of seating in order to keep the Oilers in town.

Houston's Tunnels

Citysearch Editorial Review

By Darcy De Leon

The History

It all started in 1935 when an entrepreneur named Will Horwitz connected his three theatersA-- underground. The Iris, named after his daughter, was located on Travis Street; the Texan and Uptown theaters were on Capitol. His tunnel was located beneath today's Chase Tower and was home to shops, restaurants, a penny arcade, and a German wine tavern. In 1947, Foley's dug a tunnel to connect its new store to the garage, although it's not connected to the rest of the system. Other businesses started digging in the '50s and through the '70s, until it expanded to link 55 buildings.

That sucks, 2112. :-(

Hopefully, you'll get on with Jacobs Sverdrup.

Wingate Inn

Is this the hotel you are talking about or has another one been proposed?

I'm just curious... was this building ever really renamed ChevronTexaco Tower? I was under the impression they had never bothered with renaming it since ChevronTexaco pretty much moved out when the merger occurred.

Editor, since there is almost nothing correct in the entire quoted post, could you please just go ahead and delete it?

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Well, alright then, let's start with the first paragraph.

The Harris County Sports Authority, presuming you are referring to the Harris County Houston Sports Authority never was in charge of the Dome, NEVER, let alone for three decades. The owner of the Astros had control of the Dome until the Astros moved to MinuteMaid Park.

Second Paragraph:

Reliant Stadium was not built in any hurry-up fashion for the SuperBowl, that was just icing on the cake. That should be fairly obvious to anyone "familiar" with the area, given that the stadium opened in 2002 but the SuperBowl was not until 2004. Regardless, Reliant had little, if anything, to do with any supposed "fast development" and they certainly had NOTHING to do with the site selection or architecture of the stadium. Reliant just has a naming-rights agreement, that's all; they do not in any way control the development or operations of Reliant Park. They did not even come into the picture until well after the stadium was under construction... a little late for them to be responsible for the location of the stadium, don't you think? Likewise with regard to Reliant Center... that was already well under construction before Reliant entered the picture. With regard to buying out the people to the west, I'm pretty sure most, if not all, of that land was vacant, and again, Reliant had nothing to do with it. The dome and all of Reliant Park are controlled now by the Harris County Sports and Convention Corporation, with large influence, obviously, from the Houston Texans and the Houston Livestock Show and Rodeo organization. In any event, the purchases and sales were voluntary. I don't believe they used the power of eminent domain. Yes, further up Main Street, some other properties have been cleaned up, but I don't know that any of that was done through the power of eminent domain either. So the city and the all-powerful powers-that-be wanted to clean up Main Street downtown and Reliant Park... what is wrong with that?

Third paragraph:

Again, Reliant had nothing whatsoever to do with the location or development of any of the facilities at Reliant Park, nor do they now own, control, or operate Reliant Park. That is plainly and simply a matter of historical record. You seem to be making some assumptions about these "family-owned businesses" who were "driven from the land". Do you actually know that was the case? In any event, you say that it is somehow "wrong" for one person to buy another person's property in a free and open exchange when the seller has a family-owned business on his property? I'm not sure what kind of economic system you have in mind to impose down there in Houston, but in most of America and in most free-market economies, a person who leases a property only has the right to stay there until the lease expires. They have no rights or reasonable expectations beyond that. You are absolutely right, the economic development folks in Houston wanted to get rid of a lot of the rather-shady businesses and motels that were operating on South Main. It's kind of cute to see someone wave the flag of "family-owned businesses" in honor of by-the-hour motels, massage parlors, modeling studios and such. And again, as far as I know, all of this was done without invoking the power of the state (in other words without using eminent domain or condemnation); it was all done in free market transactions.

Fourth paragraph:

The age of Bob McNair is largely, if not completely irrelevant. The deals are with his corporation, not with him personally. The corporation will survive him. The Texans have thirty-year stadium lease and non-relocation agreement with the Harris County Sports and Convention Corporation (note, the agreement is NOT with Reliant because of course Reliant has no control over the facility).

Fifth and Sixth paragraphs:

I have no argument with your proposal to turn the dome into a museum. The more ideas for the dome the better.

Seventh paragraph:

The city is not currently involved in the dome property at all and never has been, and the last thing I would think we need is another government entity to get involved. And again, Reliant has no "claim to the dome," other than the right to have their name on it, so we call your proposal the Reliant Astrodome Museum of Everyting Related to Houston ;-)

Eighth paragraph:

I have no clue. I'll presume you're right about the Ryan O'Neil movie.

P.S. No, I do not now and never have worked for Reliant or any of its current or former affiliated companies. I have no connection to Reliant whatsoever. Just call me a stickler for accuracy.

The fundamental problem with the Dome area has to do with corporate sponsorship and the influence Reliant has on what is done with what should be public buildings 100% free of corporate influence.  Prior to the area being renamed Reliant Park the Harris County Sports Authority used to maintain the Dome and did so for over 3 decades.

Once Reliant came in things got bad because the area was developed fast to get that super bowl in.  Sure that one weekend pumped money into Houston but look at the after effects.  It just looks plain stupid to have 2 giant stadiums next to e/o.  The beauty and futuristic look of the free standing dome is forever gone.  I can recall going to the dome as a kid in the 90s and parking wayyyy far from the building cause there were too many cars in the lot.  Now they have added a bigger stadium as well as Reliant Center which reduced parking spaces in that complex.  The did buy out the people in the block west of the park to make additional parking but what good did that do?

I would speculate they wanted to get rid of the lower income businesses and motels that used to be on South Main.  It was gentrification plain and simple.  I'm all for progress but driving family owned business from the land by buying out the lardlord's building and lease is wrong even though it is legal.  If Reliant wanted a squeeky clean new looking park developed they should have broken ground in some other area.  There are acres upon acres of undeveloped lands south of loop 610 on hwy 288.  Metro could have added a rail line with ease and it would be a 10-15 minute drive from downtown. 

Reliant stadium is a very risky build simply because Bob McNair is no spring chicken.  I don't follow sports deals much so I can't say if he signed some agreement to keep the Texans here for decades but if he didn't who is to say his family won't sell and/or move the team after he dies.  Things are usually all about the bottom line in business.  When trying to get an NFL team McNair said what everyone wanted to hear bout loyality to the city and keeping the NFL in town.  After he is gone the future is a question.

As for the dome, it should be converted to a museum with all of the key moments in Houston history.  Each floor should have the seats gutted to make way for displays.  They should leave a strip of seats from the floor level to the upper decks as is to show people the famous Astros rainbow design in the seats at the top.  NASA is supposedly builiding a structure around the rockets it has on display outside.  A better idea would be to have them moved to the dome (at a high one time cost) and house them there permanently for climate controlled perservation. 

This museum should not be art or scinece but more of a sociological one with many atrifacts from people who shaped the town.  Jesse Jones and Howard Hughes should have entire floors dedicated to them.  They just need to cover important stuff like the medical center, the major universities, a bit on NASA as a tie in to what they can see out in Clear Lake, etc.  There are many possibilities. 

The city would have to somehow buy out Reliant's claim to the dome to do this and also have some sort of divide made in the parking lot to allow for low cost or free parking to go see this museum.  I'm sure the outragious rate out there would turn off everyone but tourists if museum goers had to pay what sports fans do.  If admission was reasonable I think it would be world class.  There is too much history in that building for it to do anything but be a preserved museum.

BTW, there is a movie Ryan O'Neil was in during  the 60's which was filmed entirely in Houston.  There is a shot of the dome in it during construction.  Around the dome is open grassland as far as you can see.  You would never recognize it if not for the done.  I highly recommend this film to anyone who is a history buff.  They have many great shot of homes in River Oaks, the museum district, the sidney sherman 610 ship channel bridge, etc. 

The movie is called "The Thief Who Came to Dinner"

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Editor, since there is almost nothing correct in the entire quoted post, could you please just go ahead and delete it?

Subway construction would not necessarily be any more disruptive, and may in fact be less disruptive, than light rail construction on the surface. Most subway construction is not done by trenching, but rather by tunnelling, leaving the surface completely untouched and undisrupted. And enough already with the theory that subways could not be built in Houston. Just looking at the number of low-level cities around the world that have large subway systems should tell us that is nothing but urban myth... New York, Chicago, Washington DC, Amsterdam... And somehow, they manage to run subways, not to mention traffic tunnels UNDERNEATH rivers and bays; that seems to suggest that the technology exists to make them waterproof.

houstonsemipro --

I brought up The Potter's House (the name) of T.D. Jakes' church.

I'm with Glen. I like that waterfall (it's unfortunate that it is not consistently operating), and I like the whole building, especially considering that it is primarily a parking garage. I think it was a creative and splendid way to "hide" a parking garage.

At the Kirksey architectural firm website, they have something about a new Galleria Hotel...

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I think that Kirksey design is a potential Landry's project on Post Oak Blvd, next to the Landry's corporate headquarters building.

I'm with you, 2112. I like the new courthouse, and the closer it gets to completion, the more I'm liking it.

Just to be clear, this is not in the museum district.

That was a great article. I thought it really captured Houston, like almost no travel writers ever manage to do. I thought this line really nailed it:

"most outsiders don't have the time to assemble the scattered pieces. Only with time does mishmash become mosaic."

I know when I first visited Houston I wasn't terribly impressed, other than being surprised and impressed by how green it was. But after living there for five years, it became my "home" forever.

What is that from? It's kind of cool. But it's a shame the very first "fact" listed is incorrect. The Bushes do not now and have never lived in River Oaks.

The EPA is nothing for anyone to be worried about. With their budgets and enforcement manpower slashed repeatedly till it's basically a shadow of their former selves, there is nothing to fear from the EPA, ever.

This made me curious, so I went to the EPA website and looked at their Annual Reports. Their fiscal year 2004 spending was $1 BILLION higher than their Fiscal Year 2000 spending (14.24% increase). I wish my personal budget could have been "slashed" by a similar percentage in that time period...

Uh. No. Bishop T.D Jakes Church in Dallas will still be larger, the guy out in San Antonio, two in LA and Dollars church hear in Atlanta will still be larger. Well I'm not 100% sure arout Dollar since his church looks huge from the outside. It's a Dome.

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I don't know about any of the others you listed (and can't verify or dispute since you don't give us any names), but the TD Jakes Church in Dallas seats 8,000, barely bigger than Lakewood's CURRENT facility. As you can see on the Lakewood site, the new Lakewood worship center will seat more than 16,000.

I must say, one of the more tiresome and annoying things about this board is when people throw out "facts" without checking them out first.

Go to houstonfreeways.com to get a profile of the Town and Country mall,

the new construction of the Beltway interchange with I-10 is profiled along with the mall

Houston Freeways - I-10 @ Beltway 8

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Cool pictures. But the building identified as once having housed Lord & Taylor, actually was originally Marshall Field and then was briefly Saks Fifth Avenue. (Saks took over this Marshall Field location at the same time as they bought the one at The Galleria.)

I still think that the rodeo can hold additional events there, different acts or whatever.  It just needs a bit of renovation on the inside.  hell, if The Garden in Boston has endured all these years, surely the Dome can still be used for a few more years.

Ricco

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Do you mean the Boston Garden that was demolished in 1997... is that the Boston Garden you are referring to? ;-)

Checked the Cordish site, and it really doesn't look like they have much involvement in highrise residential development.  Their focus is on mixed-use and entertainment complexes.  I'm still thinking this is more a tactic to extend their option to give them some time to come up with a viable plan for the location.

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They have an entire residential division. . .

The residential division of the Cordish Company specializes in urban, mixed-use residential projects as well as "new urbanist" town centers.

In addition, The Cordish Company is developing a mixed-use project in downtown Richmond, VA that will include 200 luxury residential units coupled with a class A office tower and retail/entertainment.

As for the Location of the BoTSWT, it was to be built on the surface parking lot behind 1 Shell Plaza.

Here

Actually, thats not such an exact picture, but its the surface parking lot behind 1-Shell Plaza, Its surounded by Rusk, Milam, Louisiana, and Walker Street.

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You are one block off . . . The location of the BoTSWT was to have been the block bounded by Walker, McKinney, Louisiana and Milam. The block you referred to (Rusk, Walker, Louisiana, Milam) is the location of Two Shell Plaza.

A new condo building is popping up in Midtown when I conduct searches on the HAR site. It's called Rushmore Lofts. It's on Chenevert on the north end of Midtown. Does anyone know anything about this project? Is it under construction already? Will there be retail on the ground floor?

Understood, but an enterprising operation could still transfer them to DVD for sale/distribution in the 21st century

Excellent idea, Urbanerd! A mixed-use complex would be awesome there, especially, if it included another theater facility and street-front retail/restaurants etc. to add some more energy to the Theater District.