GovernorAggie

One doesnt retrofit multi-story, entire footprint lobby spaces with retail.

You can't just throw up several storefront systems and some interior partitions.

When incorporating retail into a new office tower... the kind of retail you want, restaurants, delis, stuff to increase streetlife..... ya got to think about service entrances for the retail, possible service alley, public vs private entrances, secure building lobby/ elevator banks.. etc.

The only reason that I suggested that is because I have seen this exact thing happen in another city--replacing a glass wall, no less. So it's not impossible.

While I agree that it would be better with some street treatments, the tower could easily be retrofitted with retail space and openings later. In fact, I'd say even moreso BECAUSE the entrance is on Rusk. For instance, 1000 Main wastes a lot of space on the entrance on Main.

This project looks interesting, but I don't like the tax credits.

Why not, this thing will return MORE than the $70 Million in credits to the tax base--but the question is whether keeping a part of the diamond and seatiing intact is worth $70 million, because that's what it amounts to. The credits are through the THC, and really has nothing to do with Houston or even Harris County for that matter.

I Like It!!

So Hines was last to formally disclose a building project and first to produce a rendering. Works for me. Two more towers have tentative (IMO) groundbreaking dates of January and February. If they don't slip, that'll be a minor miracle, and a great thing! Even more so, hopefully we can get a couple renderings in the next few months.

Our icon should be the lack thereof. Nonconformity.

Our icon should be the lack of an icon? What are you talking about? The lack of one DOES bring us into conformity. The whole idea of an icon is that it's something that sets you or your city or your business apart. That's why companies have logos. C'mon economist Niche, how iconic would a business be with no logo, generic business cards, and products of all the same size, shape, and colors.

Like it or not, NO icon is what would make Houston like almost everywhere else. No icon is why some people say, "Houston, what's there besides NASA?" Icons are why Las Vegas, Orlando, Washington, New York, and others are set apart from the Charlottes, Buffalos, Tampas, and Phoenixes of the world. No icons is why most of Sugar Land will feel just like Addison, Round Rock, Leander, McKinney, Plano, Metairie, Mesa, Naperville, Scottsdale, and Fairfax. No need of listing the states because you can be dropped in them all and not tell the difference most of the time.

Thankfully Houston was started in 1836 and not 2006--otherwise there would be no Astrodome (thankfully foolish foreign Deutsche Bank saved it from the Houstonian Efficiciency Complex), no San Jacinto Monument, no Memorial Park (an open park as the "highest and best economical use of the land?"), and maybe even no NASA (today's thinkers would probably use a cost/benefit analysis and say there's no future in space exploration if their thought processes were warped back in time)

Well could it be located between GRB and MMP? The CVB seems to think it'd be a great idea according to a separate article in HBJ about the Microsoft convention.

Wasn't there some recent debate on HAIF about how unfeasible downtown is to a hotel of this caliber?

Glimcher is like the slumlord of malls. If they buy a mall, mark it down--that place will be a dump inside of 30 months.

I was a reduced-lunch and breakfast kid until high school (40 cents and 30 cents respectively back then, too). I can remember my mom filling out forms and not sending in a W-2 or 1040 or anything, but that doesn't mean that she lied, either.

For that matter, I was also a free-breakfast-and-lunch-during-the-summer kid, too. Looking back on it, back then it wasn't bad--a way to keep kids fed during the day when parents had to go to work and no one could watch them but themselves. The food was terrible, but hey--it was free and you usally followed it up with some time at the playground or basketball court since it was nearby.

Everyone's not out to abuse the gov't. Unfortunately it's too easy to stereotype people. I was born to a mother who was still in high school (and was eligible for the Honor Society). And she's been married to my dad for 25 years now. So a normal, two-parent, stable household who had to use the federal programs for lunch for the young-uns. My dad has worked in the same factory for the last 10 years (he was at the last factory for 8) and my mom got her bachelors a couple years ago as the only minority graduating with honors.

North Forest is just like the school district I spent most of my time in--almost totally (95%) black and looking hopeless. However, North Forest's problem is not so much the administrators as much as its the parents (same for Cy Fair, HISD, KISD, and anyone else). Parents solve a school system.

Ok, rant over

Pick your fights more wisely...

ANNUAL EMPLOYMENT GROWTH RATE BY METROPOLITAN AREA, May 2006 to May 2007

Houston = 3.3%

Phoenix = 3.7%

Source: Bureau of Labor Statistics

Developers won't build what people can't afford or don't want. In places like Houston, more people can afford what they want, and so they buy it and developers build more of it to continue the process. It's a beautiful system we've got here. Places like NYC...well they suck. You have to pay people much higher wages for them to be willing to live there.

Why do you think the state gained so many residents last year? Inquiring minds want to know.

Hmmm, the one city with higher growth than Houston...MUCH stricter design standards! Have you seen Phoenix's zoning ordinance? It's hundreds of pages thick and they govern all the way down to the suitable plantings for residential developments in suburban neighborhoods.

Maricopa County will also pass Harris County by the end of the decade in population. It's already closed the gap from 380,000 to 120,000 in 6 years.

Plus, the cost of living in Phoenix is almost 1/4 more than in Houston. The median income in PHX makes up the difference but its negated some because AZ has income tax.

And since 2000, job growth in Phoenix has been roughly double that of Houston--with housing costing almost 1/3 more and just as much of an endless supply of flat land in the area.

Just to underscore KincaidAlum and Subdude's points--Phoenix is growing faster and is more expensive for people to live and employers to pay their workers--yet they are pickier about development there than here. Those "restrictions" also don't seem to be slowing anything down there, either.

Thanks fernz! Any idea on how it may look at night? I'm just glad a new one is coming, regardless!

People might accept the dance clubs more if they looked better. I agree with the poster above -- many times they look like abandoned buildings during the day.

What would be great is if a place could be a nice average restaurant during the day, and then at night turn into a dance club, or maybe has a dance club upstairs. Obviously, there's something wrong with this idea or it would have been done in the past.

Taco Milagro at Kirby and Westheimer is like this I think. It's a restaurant but pretty known for Latin dancing some nights.

I agree - except for the vacant building part. But i think it's important that these spaces don't remain empty and decay. We need something to take the place of those abandoned clubs and keep main street alive.

Yeah, I was exaggerating with the vacant building part--but Houston 19514 makes a great point...they're basically "vacant" during the day and most of the week anyway.

For now, it appears Midtown will be the next place, though things are still pretty scattered there. Sooner or later it will move out of Midtown, too.

One thing that might concern people this time is that, while the observation that the club scene does tend to move around a lot is correct, it hasn't ever seen the investment poured into making it permanent like it did in Downtown. The bars and clubs of Richmond Strip, Shepherd Plaza, Lower Westheimer and such were 1/10 or less of a cash outlay to get going. They were built to be disposable. Owners bought into Downtown to stay there a long time and many lost big. It's not easy to rebound from something like that. HP may be our last chance to see a thriving restaurant, club and bar scene develop in this area and stick. Rather than just dismissing the cyclical pattern as the nature of the business in Houston, perhaps we should look at some causes, to try to avoid this fate in the future.

Metro's lack of vision in destroying the district's infrastructure all at once was a big factor that Downtown just never seemed to shake off. But I believe changing demographics in mainstream clubbing presented the most problems for owners, and will continue to do so, as long as that business continues to be as racially divided as it is. Simply stated, Houston is a town where there are a lot of well-heeled minorities with disposable income for bars and clubs -- more so than many cities, where many of the club-goers at the most posh establishments tend to be white tourists and can recycle. I know there are plenty of notable exceptions to that last statement, but bear with me...

Mainstream club owners open up with the goal of attracting a mostly white audience and build their ambiance to that crowd, as that's how its generally thought money can be made the fastest. Then, about a year in, long before their seven-figure investment is paid off, Houston's small number of tourists and the "Fickle 500" have moved on and are replaced by local, often monied, Black and Asian patrons. They only stick around for a short time, as the atmosphere is slow to change, while the club owner resists re-tooling, in a desperate attempt to save his sinking ship. I've known a few of these guys and they all say the same thing -- they believe as soon as the Black or Asian crowd moves in, the club is done. It's racist and wrong, but it is the prevailing attitude.

So, this club can't support the minority audience that wants to go there and it repels the white audience that no longer finds it relevant. White people in Houston don't feel comfortable around large groups of minorities. Many club owners actually try to push away the paying customers they have to lure them back, but it's too late by then. Hundreds of thousands of dollars later, the club owner is left scratching his head and looking through the help wanted section of the Chron.

I believe that's the reason for the transient nature of Houston's club and bar scene. It's like that in some other cities, too, but not really to the degree we see here. Most other places have a steady influx of tourists that can keep hospitality industries a little more consistent. Here, it's all about the locals and Houston is a diverse city. I hate to say it, but perhaps we should look to Atlanta for some ideas on this matter.

What does this have to do with Houston Pavilions? Well, the local bar and club districts that have bucked the trend I describe above, like The Village, Clear Lake and the 1960 North Side have done so because they have been largely insulated from minorities and have kept their operations quite small, attracting more of a local, neighborhood clientele. There just isn't enough going on in The Village to make most people of color want to drive half-way across town to try it out. HP will be different, though. They will be on people's radar -- everyone's radar. Bayou Place's failure to really take hold should be of prime interest to the developers of HP. I believe it suffers partly from the condition I describe above, as it cannot exist independently from the prevailing Downtown vibe.

It will be an interesting experiment to see if Houston has reached the maturity level to put its racist ways behind it. Because, in order to be successful, HP will have to attract locals -- there aren't enough tourists to keep it going over the long term. I hope, for our sake the club owners have learned, because this time, we're talking nine figures.

I say good riddance, anyway. Clubs (specifically nightclubs/danceclubs) are the biggest waste of space on the planet next to crackhouses. I can't stand them. They're good for nothing but noise, drunks, and fights. Give me a restaurant anyday--something that anyone can go to and feel comfortable. Something that will be open in the daytime during the week instead of only late at night. Or if it must be a club, make it a jazz club. If I can't have that, then just give me a vacant building instead.

Dalparadise, people may not like what you've written about the nightclub scene, but I can totally understand what you're saying. I actually hope that HP avoids filling itself with nightclubs like the plague. I detest the nightclub-going scene much like TheNiche seems to not like yuppies.

Sorry for the rant. Nightclubs are just a waste. A complete and total waste. Now jazz clubs--different story.

It kinda makes me think "U.S.S.R"

Great question, Trae. Fernz, can you let us in on whether or not there's any sort of spire or ornamental top? Did you get a glimpse of a nighttime image? Thanks.

From previous threads, we all know that you're really good at putting together lists. But the topic being examined at the moment was not about downtown as a cluster. It was about Main Street. This is why someone tried to describe it as a "social spine." Because spines are straight. They are corridors. From your list, it looks like there are only two social scenes on Main: Houston Pavilions (not even completed) and Allen's Landing. Hardly a "spine."

C'mon, Niche I think you're splitting hairs quite bit here. Did you check his spelling while you're at it? He was basically saying that he thought it could be the hot spot of the region. Nothing wrong with that. He could've been saying that Main could be Houston's version of Madison Av., Fifth Av., Michigan Av., or Wilshire Dr. Even more so--I bet you that I didn't even have to tell you what cities those streets are in.

Chill with the nit-picking. I think you get his point.

I contend that such a thing is impossible. It may very well become a yuppie playground, but that is a far cry from being the "social spine of the entire region."

I don't think it's impossible. The yuppie playground potential has also passed, IMO. I think it could just turn out to be Houston's first real transit-based (FWIW--we ARE talking about Houston) urban district. Kicking out the clubs is gonna turn out to be a great thing, and getting rid of that shady urine block will work wonders.

Nope, this is way too expensive a placeholder, and its value as parking is immense as a stimulant of downtown office demand. If demolished, it would only have to be rebuilt somewhere else.

Good point, but does anyone know if it was built strong enough to possibly hold a building in the future?

I don't mean any offense to anyone here, but I am amazed how little architectural knowledge there is among the members of this forum, especially for a forum about architecture.

Anyone who has seen this building or pictures of it and still thinks that they might add a skin to it has no understanding of the significance of what is called exposed concrete, or even better, architectural concrete.

Even though they did a terrible job with this building, the concrete on the facade, with the little holes and the defined reveals and pattern, is considered a premium finish. Yes, Hines paid a premium for this concrete. It is not raw or unfinished as suggested by some. It is a premium, architectural grade concrete wall. It will not be covered up by any skin (unless Hines holds the contractor responsible for doing such a bad job on the concrete finish and makes them cover it up)

And yes it is plain concrete, it could be much better, but is not half as bad as described previously. I for one think it is much better than that fake stone looking parking garage attached to the Commerce Towers, and better than many parking garages in the city. It is clean, modern, honest and makes no apologies. It is a parking garage than is not disguised as something else, and it reflects the true identity of the city, one that is 100% car centric.

I don't care what it's "supposed" to be, the thing is absolutely terrible. No way around it. I've seen textured concrete and this ain-t it. Architectural concrete would be, imo, more akin to TxDOT's freeway treatments with different design elements (which by the way has a true identity of being 100% car-centric). I hope you're right and it's the contractor that fumbled the ball on this one, because it's just bad. There are areas on the thing that look like smudges or grease spots on paper. They can easily fix this by painting it and adding screens to the open areas with different designs. After all, they blocked in the area under the lowest ramp with cinderblock and painted it white. Why can't they block in the rest?

Btw the architects for this are Pickard Chilton. They also designed the unbuilt AIM tower in Greenway Plaza, which would have been nice. There isn't a rendering on their site yet, but keep checking.

Pickard Chilton projects

Not to get off on a tangent, but I just had to say that the Pinnacle building that PC did in Buckhead (Atlanta) is ok. However, photo #5 of the uilding on their site just gave one of the best pictures of the Atlanta skyline that I've seen in a LONG time.

OK, back on topic I'll take the Columbus Office Tower (Miami), 1180 Peachtree (Atlanta), AIM Headquarters, or the 200 North Riverside Plaza (Chicago) designs for the Main St. tower!

Anyone else notice how many buildings this company has done for Hines?

It has one of the Dollar Stores as well as Rama's African Boutique and it had the Metro soul food restaurant (no, METRO did not own it). I saw the "New West Building" is ripped down already and Metro is closed down.

Actually, I'm quite please with the garage built for the new Camden City Center (name may be butchered). I really blends in with the development.

CSOM, though it's not local, the first several levels of John Hancock in Chicago is also parking garage. Then there's Phoenix Tower in Greenway and I'm sure several others.

Oh that's right that's your hood isn't it, Niche? Thanks. Any word on Astroworld's redevelopment?