GovernorAggie

A pedestrian cannot legally cross the LRT tracks except at an intersection, right? In Downtown, that's OK because cross-streets were maintained throughout. In Midtown, that's a problem because the grid was disrupted. Pedestrians have to go out of their way in many cases to get from A to B...or break the law and possibly get ticketed by METRO cops.

I've crossed in front of Metro, HPD, and Harris County cops many times and I've never been ticketed. I've even crossed against the lights. I saw one person warned once, but that was because she crossed right in front of an oncoming train.

As far as going out of their way, what difference does it make if people use a short cut and risk being ticketed as a pedestrian. People do it all the time cutting through a parking lot to miss a light at an intersection while driving.

Portland and San Diego have much less (and in some cases no) separation between their at-grade, in-street LRT trains and pedestrians and vehicles. And they seem to have fewer problems. I think it's a Houstonian issue, not an at-grade, in-street LRT issue.

It kinda makes me think "U.S.S.R"

Great question, Trae. Fernz, can you let us in on whether or not there's any sort of spire or ornamental top? Did you get a glimpse of a nighttime image? Thanks.

From previous threads, we all know that you're really good at putting together lists. But the topic being examined at the moment was not about downtown as a cluster. It was about Main Street. This is why someone tried to describe it as a "social spine." Because spines are straight. They are corridors. From your list, it looks like there are only two social scenes on Main: Houston Pavilions (not even completed) and Allen's Landing. Hardly a "spine."

C'mon, Niche I think you're splitting hairs quite bit here. Did you check his spelling while you're at it? He was basically saying that he thought it could be the hot spot of the region. Nothing wrong with that. He could've been saying that Main could be Houston's version of Madison Av., Fifth Av., Michigan Av., or Wilshire Dr. Even more so--I bet you that I didn't even have to tell you what cities those streets are in.

Chill with the nit-picking. I think you get his point.

I contend that such a thing is impossible. It may very well become a yuppie playground, but that is a far cry from being the "social spine of the entire region."

I don't think it's impossible. The yuppie playground potential has also passed, IMO. I think it could just turn out to be Houston's first real transit-based (FWIW--we ARE talking about Houston) urban district. Kicking out the clubs is gonna turn out to be a great thing, and getting rid of that shady urine block will work wonders.

Nope, this is way too expensive a placeholder, and its value as parking is immense as a stimulant of downtown office demand. If demolished, it would only have to be rebuilt somewhere else.

Good point, but does anyone know if it was built strong enough to possibly hold a building in the future?

I don't mean any offense to anyone here, but I am amazed how little architectural knowledge there is among the members of this forum, especially for a forum about architecture.

Anyone who has seen this building or pictures of it and still thinks that they might add a skin to it has no understanding of the significance of what is called exposed concrete, or even better, architectural concrete.

Even though they did a terrible job with this building, the concrete on the facade, with the little holes and the defined reveals and pattern, is considered a premium finish. Yes, Hines paid a premium for this concrete. It is not raw or unfinished as suggested by some. It is a premium, architectural grade concrete wall. It will not be covered up by any skin (unless Hines holds the contractor responsible for doing such a bad job on the concrete finish and makes them cover it up)

And yes it is plain concrete, it could be much better, but is not half as bad as described previously. I for one think it is much better than that fake stone looking parking garage attached to the Commerce Towers, and better than many parking garages in the city. It is clean, modern, honest and makes no apologies. It is a parking garage than is not disguised as something else, and it reflects the true identity of the city, one that is 100% car centric.

I don't care what it's "supposed" to be, the thing is absolutely terrible. No way around it. I've seen textured concrete and this ain-t it. Architectural concrete would be, imo, more akin to TxDOT's freeway treatments with different design elements (which by the way has a true identity of being 100% car-centric). I hope you're right and it's the contractor that fumbled the ball on this one, because it's just bad. There are areas on the thing that look like smudges or grease spots on paper. They can easily fix this by painting it and adding screens to the open areas with different designs. After all, they blocked in the area under the lowest ramp with cinderblock and painted it white. Why can't they block in the rest?

Btw the architects for this are Pickard Chilton. They also designed the unbuilt AIM tower in Greenway Plaza, which would have been nice. There isn't a rendering on their site yet, but keep checking.

Pickard Chilton projects

Not to get off on a tangent, but I just had to say that the Pinnacle building that PC did in Buckhead (Atlanta) is ok. However, photo #5 of the uilding on their site just gave one of the best pictures of the Atlanta skyline that I've seen in a LONG time.

OK, back on topic I'll take the Columbus Office Tower (Miami), 1180 Peachtree (Atlanta), AIM Headquarters, or the 200 North Riverside Plaza (Chicago) designs for the Main St. tower!

Anyone else notice how many buildings this company has done for Hines?

It has one of the Dollar Stores as well as Rama's African Boutique and it had the Metro soul food restaurant (no, METRO did not own it). I saw the "New West Building" is ripped down already and Metro is closed down.

Actually, I'm quite please with the garage built for the new Camden City Center (name may be butchered). I really blends in with the development.

CSOM, though it's not local, the first several levels of John Hancock in Chicago is also parking garage. Then there's Phoenix Tower in Greenway and I'm sure several others.

Oh that's right that's your hood isn't it, Niche? Thanks. Any word on Astroworld's redevelopment?

I wonder where Frank Liu's Duany-designed development is in relation to the Astroworld property, Reliant Park, and Fannin South. Any HCAD wiz's in the house?

Has anybody actually talked to Hines to find out for sure if the building is visually complete, or if something else is planned? Are they at least going to paint it, or do they plan on leaving it unfinished looking? Does anybody really know, or is it just speculation?

I chilled out about the garage when I passed by it yesterday. There's no way this thing can be done. The concrete is still quite raw looking, and the windows for the retail is pretty dusty. They've started lighting it but optimism says that they are not done yet.

At least they put awnings over the retail portion.

Wow, Deutsche Bank is big time. So much for our piddly opinions on the project's feasibility.

COOL!!! I guess it'll be a race to see who actually puts a shovel in the ground first--Hines, Crescent, or Brookfield (or maybe even someone else!)

Hines, owns that piece of property and is free (within city guidelines) to do what he wants with it just as Violet is free to do with hers. Downtown residents own very little property as compared to the businesses Downtown. Violet made the conscious decision to move Downtown and hopefully had some idea of the problems that happen Downtown.

IMO people can have goals but at the same time, the goals must be realistic. She made the decision to move downtown fully knowing she has no guaranteed control of anything else. Is she regretting her decision? That is for her to decide.

Yes just like those who move into neighborhoods with active freight rail tracks. Houston has many industrial areas inner loop that require freight rail. If the City of Houston decides to somehow ban freight rail traffic, what signal would that send to businesses (requiring rail) that may be looking to relocate to Houston? It sure wouldn't be positive and might even cause other businesses to think that Houston isn't supportive of businesses.

If her window treatments don't keep out the light, then maybe she should invest in some that do.

Musicman, you're right generally about what you said. However, that point could transcend into non-deed restricted areas of the city as well. If Walgreens wants to build in a neighborhood that's not deed-protected and their parking lot lights adverse affect the homeowners, it's true that the homeowners' only recourse is to buy something to shield their windows from the lights. Such is life in Houston. But that doesn't mean that's the way is should be.

fernz, maybe I wasn't clear. My point was that everything doesn't have to be solely about financial return. Sometimes it can be about being a good neighbor. There's a whole thread about this regarding the CVS in Midtown. City ordinance says basically "make sure your building stands and doesn't kill anyone, and is setback x amount of feet from the street". Based only on financial return, if I'm CVS, I take the cheapest materials that will stand, use the cheapest labor, and the cheapest off-the-shelf design in order to build my building. Why go through the added expense of brick or copper awnings when it does nothing but add to my construction costs and take away from my bottom line? Some of it, I think, has to do with fitting in with the area--translated to basically being a good neighbor.

You're in the middle of a downtown business district, not a master planned community. Next you'll want to ban honking, future construction that will block your views, the smell of urine on the sidewalks, drinking fountains that don't output potable water, the noise from construction, noise from METRO buses, etc.

Is that a fair assessment? Downtown is her neighborhood. Whether or not we see it that way is kinda immaterial in a sense because we don't have the same at stake. Why should the voice of Hines (aka downtown property owner) matter more than violet (aka downtown property owner). Downtown residents have a goal for it to be a living, functioning neighborhood where people can LIVE as well as work and enjoy themselves. Is that a misplaced goal on their part? I don't think so. And as more people move downtown, there's gonna be more complaints about noise, urine, etc. Residents that live in neighborhoods along freight rail tracks that predate their neighborhood complain about noise and traffic tie-ups. The nerve of those people--didn't they know they were living near an active freight rail track?

If they can complain and expect action, downtown residents can too, IMO.

Heck, we get complaints from Heights residents when people want to build a different kind of residential structure in a residential area. Go figure.

Each of the companies that you listed market products to consumers, and the bad PR you mention is all health/safety related. That's a very different animal than a firm that markets space in office buildings to businesses that builds an ugly parking garage. Your examples get people killed. This case is one where a limited number of people (to whom Hines is not selling a product) have their views marred. See the difference?

Create a public controversy over aesthetics, and Hines will freeze up. They will do nothing but make a few comments on how aesthetics can be subjective. Beyond that, they won't fuel the fire by trying to debate, and without further input from their side, the matter will die off pretty quickly as far as the press is concerned. The alternative, as far as Hines would be concerned, would be to very quickly make renovations, but then that'd mean that they would be making an investment without any financial return and signalling to their financial stakeholders that they have no backbone.

But they didn't. What's there is there. Now we have to deal with it.

I understand and see the difference and I thnk you make my point for me...this "bad" PR would be minor in the grand scheme of things. That leads me to believe that it shouldn't adversely affect Hines too much, and I think can only help the Commerce residents.

As far as Hines' investors goes, I don't think that adding a curtain/skin to the garage would send bad vibes to them. Worse vibes would be if they can't get that retail leased, IMO. Regardless, I would think that with holdings as large and diverse as Hines (2 bldgs. at least 900' in Houston alone!) this parking garage is a "pocket-lint" level project and shouldn't be that big of a deal. If it's an investment without any financial return, is that really that big of a deal? Does EVERYTHING have to have a financial return. If so, we should be seeing some nice quality places filling those retail spots on the garage's opening day. If they take forever to lease the spaces, then maybe the financial return on each an every minor thing that they do with the garage is not as important--thus making the case even more so that something should be done aesthetically to the garage.

Here's the Chron article I referred to earlier:

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/travel...ck/4578966.html

Ship Channel traffic was also a reason for the selection of Galveston by Carnival. There's no reason to think that other companies aren't the same.

Niche-

You play the role of devil's advocate on behalf of every unpopular project so much so that I am just starting to assume that you are the actual devil.

Since you love giving out advice, here's mine to you;

If you want people to take you as sincere and your advice as genuine, you need to pick and choose your battles more wisely. I haven't seen the garage in person, but it is clear, there is NO DEFENSE possible for this development on Main Street in the heart of downtown.

I've seen this garbage in person and I can also vouch for the ugliness that it is. I was hoping for something more "architecturally significant" but alas, the real Houston showed up--just enough to work and no more. At the very least be like the McKinney garage on Main. Oh well, I guess the economics of it work, which reminds me...

RedScare, not to pile on Niche, but I think you have it right on his perspective here (government vs. business). Look at the suggestions to the private homeowner:

"Negotiate"

"Use nice words"

"Don't cause PR problems"

And so on. My response to that is, "who cares". Bad PR is why companies pay PR people. Bad PR hasn't stopped Jack-in-the-Box after the e.coli problems in the 1990s, bad PR hasn't stopped Taco Bell, bad transfat PR hasn't stopped McDonald's, bad PR hasn't stopped Firestone, bad PR doesn't stop the airlines, and on and on and on.

But one can just glance at the first page of a posting about Metro or TxDOT or the City and can find the very same Niche using strong, if not demeaning, language in referring to those agencies. But then again, they're government, so they must be ok to lambast. Play nice with the companies who have no real responsibility to us the public. Throw rotten eggs at those who at least would be somewhat responsive (albeit slow or maybe ineffectively) to us the public.

One more thing, zoning could've fixed this, and other ordinances could have too. Permits to operate the garage could've been delayed in order to get Hines to keep its "word".

Gee, this sounds a lot like, "we're government, trust us...we're here to help". Shouldn't the same leery eye be cast towards Hines and any other developer that makes grand, un-Houston promises like "architecturally-siignificant" or "pedesrian-friendly" or "transit-oriented"? Ironically, these same companies go through the hoops in every other American city they operate or develop in, but for some reason, Houston has to play by the developers' rules so that a little "guidance" (regulation) doesn't make the development jump all the was from $25 a sf to lease to $25.01 a sf to lease.

Whew! Sorry for the rant. Nothing personal Niche, just noticing what seems a little like a double standard.

It's closer to the Houston area airports than Galveston, and considering our geographic location and the connectivity of our airport system, the Houston area is the best-located area to capture Caribbean cruise business from markets west of the Mississippi, especially from Texas. As Texas cities and the southwestern U.S. is growing by leaps and bounds, it looks like a plausible bet to me.

Having said that, I am not familiar with specifics or details about who is financing what, so I could be very wrong from a public policy standpoint.

It may be closer to the airports in Houston, but I remember a recent Chron article about the cruise ships and terminals and according to the cruise ship companies, Houston's problem is the amount of time it takes to get out of Galveston Bay and into the open sea. It takes several hours to get out of the bay and into the open sea. With that in mind, Galveston will likely always be a better location until the development of faster ships makes Bayport a more suitable location.

The crack shack on the corner is closed today, but I don't know if that is a permanent thing or not.

Yeah, I saw the "The New West Bldg" sign ripped off today and the Metro soul food restaurant has been closed and its sign removed. Something is a-brewin'!

In houston, mass transit for the longest time was only buses. many believed that riding the bus was for the poor/lower class. now that LRT is a reality, some people who had the above belief have said here that they are not afraid to be seen on the LRT but won't ride the bus still. this attitude needs to be changed otherwise mass transit in houston won't be successful.

This is the attitude of every city in the U.S. outside of maybe New York and *possibly* Chicago. Houston is just like everybody else when it come to this (I know it strikes at the heart of natives to hear that Houston is actually not unique at something )

Say you can pick up an extra 10-20 MPH with a train. Is that worth a massive investment in infrastructure when it entails removing ROW from use by private vehicles and the routing limitations of a fixed-guideway system? The key to viable public investments is marginal impact above and beyond what is available at present, the no-build scenario.

I hope you'd use that same logic to question the expenditures on the I-10 and future 290 widening. A total of $6-7 BILLION on two corridors for TEMPORARY relief of maybe 7-10 minutes on one's travel time? You chastise removing ROW from private vehicles that are passing through, but what about removing private ROW from private INDIVIDUALS who live, work, and own businesses in the "way" of the widening of these two corridors?

What is a TIRR?

I know that there are several TIRZ districts that cover portions of downtown. The City Center project might be in the Main Street/Market Square district. But a TIRZ is not a tax break. Property owners in TIRZ districts pay normally increasing taxes. The increase over the baseline in collections is used for public improvements in the district. It is a benefit that I don't think should be given, but it really is not a tax break.

As for waiving city taxes for condo buyers, I have never heard of this. Could you please provide a link? However, I am aware that certain "historic" sites have been given tax abatements. Perhaps some renovated condo buildings downtown recieved these. If they did, they should not have. But, the City Center won't be given a tax abatement.

But nothing is stopping the management district from providing tax relief or kicking in some funding. After all, Houston Pavilions is partially subsidized too by the Downtown Management District, the City, and amazingly enough the County(!).