MiDTOWNeR

Welcome to Houston, the 4th largest joke of a city in America. The city with no efficient transit options (i.e. rail), no amusement park, 600 sq miles of ghetto, low density, car-centric, unplanned neighborhoods, lack of progress, and etc......................................................

Can I use this as my signature?

Thank you for your interest in the subject. To clarify here, what I was attempting to do is to point out a somewhat skewed view of how things "are" on the freeways. To say the least, the original post on this thread was in fact somewhat charged in tone, with some exagerations (the 20Mph thingy), so, I guess I kinda wonder why you dont make a point of pointing out that.

I actually have posted in this thread that I felt the 20mph reference was an exageration. But, I understood what the poster was trying to say, so I did not take LITERALLY that the poster really felt people were driving 20mph on the freeway. it did not hurt my ego for the poster to say the people were driving 20mph.

Yet, you only notice the responses not the original source of it all. I mean there's nothing wrong with that. I'm just saying.

Also, you point out that the left lane should be designated and treated as the "fast" lane even though there may be an exit comming up. I think we can all agree that it is indeed unwise to travel at fast speeds when the lane ("left" or what have you) you are on is about to take a tight radius onto a ramp. It's just not good practice.

Im not agreeing to anything. Left lane is the fast. Regardless of entering the the freeway via the left lane or not, one is still entering a fast moving environment and a driver is going to have to alter their approach accordingly. Considering that not everyone drives at exactly the same speed all of the time anyway. there is is no reason that one cannot enter the FAST LANE and adjust the driving accordingly for the amount of time they need til they get to the speed at which they chose to travel. And if means slowing to let one by, so they can then cross the fast lane to the next lane so be it. Or if you have to floor it to get into the flow of traffic and they adjust accodrningly...you do what you have. to do. But to just say that...well, this freeway has an entrance/exit to the left lane, so that cannot be the fast lane..ir ricidulous. The 10E has a LEft lane exit to get onto the 45N. when you are approaching the exit the dotted lines change, the signs let you know you are approaching said exit. You should slow down in this area. especially since you are going to exit and have to make a sharo left turn. OR, if you are continuing on 10E then you had better get out of that lane in order to stay on10E, so again you will have to adjust your driving to the road. but when you conitnue on 10E and you have passed that exit to 45....the left lane is the fast lane, until another deviation arises. Its simple.

And lastly, in regards to your "bragging" comment: Well, No, it was not bragging, it was simply an observation that the average speed seems to be closer to 67, based on emperical evidence from two trial experiments, and not the alledged 20MPH as our originator claimed. I then finished it off with the added observation that the pavement was wet (It was raining). I mean it was. So I thougth I would mention it. Frankly, I think people should drive a bit slower when it's wet. Don't you?

The issue you have with the 20mph post is ridiculous. Why take such a post so literally when it clearly need not be taken that way. It gives the impression that you had nothing else to argue about. It reminds me of the South Episode where Tom Cruise was literally in the closet, in Stan's room, and he would not come out. Nicole said ," it's okay, you can come out of the closet, Tom" And Tom replies "but I'm not in the closet". So what if someone said 20mph. They were making a point. One day you too will say/post something that is a colorful way to explain something and people will quote you ver batim and hold you to it when you in fact were just using that as an example.

Three comments on this: First, I can see you are not jumping on the bandwagon that traffic is slow here, I understand that, and I dont acuse you of agreeing with Mr. Perimeter on that point.

And if I did would you have me taken out? Good grief, so someone said people in Houston drive slow. What is the big frickin' deal?! It is not like they are saying that "life" is slow in these parts. And if it is...again...what is the big frickin' deal? Usually the dogooders would have gone on about how great they are for obeying the speed limit or even driving under it for safety-sake. But not here. He said i drive slow!!! HANG HIM!!!!!!

So, you have a left lane entrance, no reason that someone can't enter and move over if they do not care to travel at the (fast) speed in that lane. There are always going to be some sort of entrance, exit, HOV lane entrance'exit, it most certainly does not mean that a fast lane cannot exist and fuction as that.

In fact, considering the wet pavement and the tons of cars out today....that was pretty fast.

Are you bragging about this or what? Do you want to be know as the town with the highest freeway speeds or something?

nah i know you're getting over the whiplash you received from the bouncy bouncy bouncy road. it's the painkillers talkin'

mmmmmmmm vicadin.

taking a jab at houston is acceptable, i don't think anyone has a problem if there is a factual basis. These are your opinions.

but making statements such as.....

It just kills me to drive along a freeway where everyone is going 20 MPH and there's about 10 car lengths between each car. Seriously, you have to TRY to drive that slowly, and I see it all over the city, all of the time. I think it's pretty sad when I pass people like they're standing still when I'm going the SPEED LIMIT. Am I the only person that has anywhere to be?

I've surely never seen anyone in comparably sized cities (Dallas, Atlanta, etc.) drive like that.

.....are difficult to even respond to because they are generalizations.

Then of course inserting the last sentence doesn't add anything to your generalization except to point out that you have "never seen ANYONE in comparably sized cities drive like that" . this is an explicit jab vs your implicit jabs.

So you're telling me you also drive 20 and have 10 car lengths between you? if not, then i'd say you're making generalizations.

I am not the one who said anything about driving 20 mph. That was not my post

But in regards to the 20mph post. My understanding of that post was that it was a bit of an exageration, to make that point that they think lots of folks drive slow. But if you all want to take that that person said you are sinning against the lord and savior cause you all drive 20mph...that is yo bidnez.

I think most drivers are in on this courtesy.

please define "most drivers"

taking a jab at houston is acceptable, i don't think anyone has a problem if there is a factual basis. These are your opinions.

But if you are already inclined to be on the defensive, how does one determine what is factual?

but making statements such as.....

It just kills me to drive along a freeway where everyone is going 20 MPH and there's about 10 car lengths between each car. Seriously, you have to TRY to drive that slowly, and I see it all over the city, all of the time. I think it's pretty sad when I pass people like they're standing still when I'm going the SPEED LIMIT. Am I the only person that has anywhere to be?

I've surely never seen anyone in comparably sized cities (Dallas, Atlanta, etc.) drive like that.

.....are difficult to even respond to because they are generalizations.

Then of course inserting the last sentence doesn't add anything to your generalization except to point out that you have "never seen ANYONE in comparably sized cities drive like that" . this is an explicit jab vs your implicit jabs.

So you're telling me you also drive 20 and have 10 car lengths between you? if not, then i'd say you're making generalizations.

and just to be clear...this was not my post.

And thirdly, addressing being defensive: Houston has always suffered from bad press. So yes, if people constantly say that your mama is ugly, then defensiveness should be in the response repertoire. Don

And further, the concept of a "fast lane"doesnt work in a freeway-intessive city like ours: There are off ramps on the left, on the right, and in the middle: If I have take a left lane exit ramp...I am going to slow down, and everyone else is also, which means that the so-called "fast lane" will have slow moving vehicles.

The fast lane could work, and should work, but oh look who is driving in it. Someone who thinks it doesn't

It is common here IMO.

Wouldn't want to seem as though Houston wasn't IN on this courtesy.

the flashing light comment goes on here too and has since i remember riding in a car in the 60's. I know i flash my lights on the police heavy section of monroe to warn drivers of a police presence.

May i ask what year you obtained a drivers license?

I never said the flashing light deal does not go on here. It is not as widespread & common as driving in the Southeast.

You may ask, but why?

I find it odd that people keep accusing me of generalizing and being totally oblivious to the fact that traffic actually moves at the speed of light but that I'm just ignoring reality.

Let me remind you of two things: 1. I like Houston and want it to thrive. 2. I've lived here for four years, and I'm describing what I see on a daily basis.

How is this generalizing? How is this negative stereotyping?

Yes, maybe 10 car lengths is an exaggeration, but not by much. I run into situations constantly where traffic is not nearly heavy enough to justify the low speeds.

I'm not some out-of-towner that wants to put down Houston. I live here, so I want it to be a great place to live. Spending half my life stuck behind someone that has nowhere in particular to be is not my idea of fun.

By the way, I don't drive 90 MPH. Closer to the speed limit, maybe 5 MPH over. But even at that speed, and even when traffic is not heavy, I find myself weaving and passing people like they're parked. You can't tell me that these people are driving intelligently.

It is easier for ofllks to say you are 'generalizing" than to have to accept that what you point out may in fact be true. Many understand that when you say 20mph you are exagerating to make a point. But again, it is easier for some to pick on that as if you are REALLY trying to say that people drive 20mph on the freeway. Some probably have little experience elsewhere and are a bit offended that you suggest such a thing.

I dont understand why people have to make everything so personal on here. But again it goes back to the culture of defense that I suspect some have deeply rooted in the them from defending Houston for a lifetime

By the way, I don't drive 90 MPH. Closer to the speed limit, maybe 5 MPH over. But even at that speed, and even when traffic is not heavy, I find myself weaving and passing people like they're parked. You can't tell me that these people are driving intelligently.

I have noticed this as well. I often get the feeling that many people simply do not know where they are going. As if they are unfamiliar with the Houston freeway system. Oh but wait, let me go to unfamiliarwiththehoustonfreewaysystem.com so that I can pull live data of the current number of people driving around lost. Cause i am SURE it will be WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYYYY less than any amount ever possibly suggested.

I am not basing this on any studies just personal perception... It has not been my experience that people in Houston drive "slow", but that when on the freeway the range of speeds is quite drastic. People do seem a bit stubborn to me in that when there are clearly folks who want to drive faster in the fast lane, someone refuses to change lanes to allow those people by. Sometimes I wonder if 5 lanes is almost too many lanes. Like it gives people to many options to travel at the speed they want, therefore making the whole situation more of a mess

I just got back from visiting the cousins in East Texas. It is unforunate that more people do not observe the left lane as the passing lane. I was on the 59 and the 45 and often, I was passing in the right lane. I have noticed when driving in the South Eastern US ...Carolinas, Georgia, Alabama that many more people hold to the lef tlane is for passing rule. That is also where I learned the flashing your lights to let big trucks over and to warn oncomming traffic of the police ahead.

I think Houston's high immigrant population also contributes to the problem.

When it comes to drastic speed differences amongst vehicles in a particular given stretch of freeway, I totally see what your saying. It is often the pick-up old or BRAND spankin' new and bigger than my house filled with pax of a particular ethnicity going waaaaay under the speed limit.

A point brought up earlier about the design of Houston's freeways contributing to mysterious slowdowns is a very good one.

Houston's freeways are famous for cramming as many lanes as possible into narrow rights-of-way

It seems some of the older freeways are a bit more tight on space in this regard...the lanes on the 45 (the norht freeway) between beltway 8 to 610 seem very narrow to me. However, the 59N from Downtown out beyond beltway 8 is quite spacious with large emergency lanes on both sides of each direction.

with huge mainlane humps passing over the surface streets so that nobody can see what's ahead of them

and continuous feeder roads with innumerable driveways with cars turning in and out of businesses directly onto the freeway with way too many entrance and exit ramps for the mainlanes where there's barely one foot between the travel lane and the barrier wall and no landscape barrier between the freeway and the commercial mess all of which contributes to a severe case of claustrophobia. PHEW! Just thinking about it raises my blood pressure, and this is the situation that most of us drive in every day!

The feeder road thing is interesting in itself. You have traffic zooming along at say 55 on the feeder but wait, I need to slow down to turn into the DQ....without a right turn lane....While someone else has just exited the freeway and trying to get to the right lane on the feeder, but because I am slowing to get a hunger buster at the DQ the cars behind are bailing to the left lanes to keep from having to slow down.but wait...those cars just coming off the freeway wanting the Right lane..a bit of a clusterf*ck. Once I get my Hunger Buster and want back on the freeway, the entrance to the freeway is like 100 feet away and across 3 lanes on the feeder, so I have to get across the 3 lanes and up to freeway speed by the time i reach the freewya entrance. Fun fun fun.

I have noticed that with the feeder system there are fewer entrances and exits to the freeways...which help the surface street intersection back ups from reaching back to the freeway itself...This is Good. But with fewer entrances and exits you have more vehicles vying for limited entrances and exits which can cause a more significant slowdown as these cars reach the exit and then you have a greater number of cars assimilating into the flow of the freeway traffic when entering the freeway.

Not to sound full of myself but let me remind everyone that these are my opinions. And just that. I have only my personal experiences to draw from for what I have written. I am not pretending to be an authority on this subject or that I know more than anyone else. If any of what I have written seems to be negative about Houston, it is not my intention to suggest that Houston is the ONLY town with whatever negativity I may have expressed, but in my personal experience said example just bares mentioning in that it may be more noticeable or prevalant in Houston...of course......based on experinces only.

With that said. I have mentioned before that there is a bit of a lack of norms when on the freeways here. Somone may put on their signal to get in my lane...I slow or just dont accelerate so that they may do so. They stay in their lane with their signal on. I can see them checking their mirrors, I am STILL staying back so that they may get over. After what seems like an eternity, I finally just proceed. The point is, that people are so used to not being let in that they are dumfounded when someone does let them in, and therefore do not know how to act quick enough to make it all worthwhile. Now certainly, I realize that there are times when I may catch someones signal going on and they are indeed counting on me passing them before they plan on changing lanes. Thats normal freeway behaviour and I can recognize that. But more often than not, when I try to accomadate someone on the freeway they take forever in figuring out what the heck is going on...so it becomes worthless. Things happen quick on the freeway, and unfortunately the culture here does not allow people to learn these little things that make freeway driving so much easier.

Of course, the fast lane....exists sometimes but more often than not..it doesn't. Argue all you want, but People seriously need to get out of the fast lane.

One way that I find people very accomodating is on the surface streets when traffic is backed up quite a bit at a stoplight. I find people very willing to let you in when pulling on to the street from a parking lot. People in Houston seem very aware to not block secondary intersections without a light when traffic is backed up beyond it. These are very nice gestures and very much appreciated. Makes me wonder why they cant learn to drive on the freeways better.

Something with freeway design here that I have noticed is the lack of through lanes. For example, the 59 S continues under 610 to inside the loop. The 59S approaching the 610 is mostly 4 & 5 lanes. But for the split at the 610 59S goes down to 3 lanes, while 610 gets 3 lanes. Why can;t the 59S stay at the 4 or 5 origianl lanes. Someone had mentioned having to change lanes a lot. Well, this would be an example. Even though you are satying on the original freeway, not exiting to the 610, you may still have to make a lane change. The brand new 610W travelling north at the 10 does the same thing. the 610west loop N as it goes past uptown is 4 lanes, but goes down to 3 lanes to continue n 610N and 2 lanes to get onto the 10. So again, one who may be staying on the 610 may HAVE to change lanes even though they are still on the 610. It seems that the assumption that X% of traffic will exit /enter at that point is the driving force and I am sure a cost cutter, but severely influences the overall flow at that point and approaching at that point of the freeway.

The battery on my laptop is going byebye...

whew that was easier than i thought.

See, I am not so bad.

if you could provide some supporting data, you could make a believer out of me......saying a specific road is bouncy bouncy bouncy isn't supporting data.

Why, so you can post-You are generalizing and I drive that road everyday and dont find it bouncy bouncy bouncy. Check your shocks....

God forbid the road be hilly.

Hilly would be an improvement from bouncy bouncy bouncy.

Or you could try saying in your first post on the subject what you now claim to have meant to have said.

If you had indeed said "Houston's roads could be better", the words "easily excitable and hypberbolic" would not have leapt to mind. Oh, and those repeated references to third world countries and Cambodia... no hyperbole there, right? ;-)

But of course we all know that is not what you said. (And by the way, you know all of this is in writing and reviewable, so your attempt to re-write history are not likely to work. We can all go back and see that your original point was not that the "minor" roads in Houston are not in good condition.) The roads you have specifically referenced are all very obviously not "minor" roads, but are arterial roads. (And trying to pretend that Allen Parkway is not an arterial road just makes you look silly and desperate.) Are you really trying to suggest now that Airport and Monroe are also just "minor" (and not arterial) roads? (I'm presuming you meant Airport, not Airline, since I don't think Airline goes anywhere near Hobby Airport.)

WOW, there is sum ANGER in that thar post.

i don't think so. i'm not the one comparing Houston's infrastructure to that of a third world country.

Well of course you dont.

Dare I even consider adding to this thread?

some of the "tone" and "m.o." of this forum and it's posters. There is a whole lot of "but Dallas has this" or "San Diego has that" and "Atlanta does this" combined with the implication that Houston is a backwater slum that really starts to get old after a while.

I have heard the Dallas and Atlanta comparisons, but have not heard the San Diego comparisons.

The rest of your post makes complete sense. The problem is what you mentioned...the tone. If somene such as myself..says something like "the roads are bad" Other posters seem to read into that.."the roads are bad you hick sobs livin' in yer trailers holdin' you dat dar gun" Certainly I am guilty of using colorful language, my my original post.."the roads are bad" was not meant as as an all out assault on the Houston way of life. Yet, it is immediately taken that way and therefore difficult to have a discussion about it. Or if I say, "the roads are bad" for arguments sake people take the side of "well, they are bad everywhere, it is not unique to Houston. Which is true too, but denies my rermise that on a whole, on a daily basis, when travelling inside the loop, which is where i do most of my travelling the proporation of good roads versus roads that are like off roading on-an exageration-dont get hot and bothered..is fairly poor when compared to similar areas of other cities in the US.

I'd suggest that you move out of the trailer park. When you get to the real world, roads are paved.

Now there's the pot calling the kettle black?

Why do you insist on setting up straw men that you can knock down easily? I never ever ever said that Houston should be proud of being solidly in the middle, and I repeatedly reminded you of that fact (and I don't recall anyone else on this board suggesting such "pride" either). Again, neither does Houston have anything to be particularly ashamed of when it is in fact, solidly in the middle, and when, not just one stretch of its roads, not just a dozen stretches of its roads, but a full 24% of its roads are in good condition, again, solidly in the middle of the major metros in this country.

Apparently you are an easily excitable and hyperbolic individual. Even after being shown that Houston is IN FACT pretty average in regard to the condition of its roads, you insist on figuratively running through the streets yelling "the sky is falling", "Houston is no better than a third world country." Get a grip, man.

No, you need to get the grip. Just the fact that you have entertained this thread this far in some quest to prove someone wrong over their perception is insanely funny.

How about Memorial Drive...Shepard to Dowtown/both directions. bouncy bouncy bouncy.

unfounded opinions you want to stick to.

Unfounded? Cause you dont agree with them.

You seem to have a problem accepting that other people have less negative opinions of Houston than you do.

And you seem to WANT to ignore all the facts that are presented that are contrary to your opinion.

What "facts" Its a bunch of folks just presenting their opinions as well. I never said there were not smooth roads here. There are just a bunch that aren't smooth.

Oh, and, not that you are interested in any objective views or analysis, but here you go: Road Conditions of metros over 500,000

What sort of "study" is this anyway. "Percentage Mediocre?". Can you put the whole study on here, or would it be too large? It would be interesting to see it.

You know what midtowner, you just can't STAND that us Houston hayseeds enjoy ourselves. It's almost not fun making a fool of you anymore.

You are right. Keeps me up at night actually.

Well there's your problem right there! Midtowner doesn't do objective. He just throws the skunk in the room, and when everyone complains of the smell, he claims that they are in denial. So, you can just take those objective studies right on outta here.

And this matter of street quality is something that has been objectively studied... Of the studies I've seen, there is no support for the "opinion" that Houston's streets are the worst in the world or similar hyperbole that we often see here. The most recent study I've seen was of metro areas over 500,000 and Houston was solidly in the middle of the pack.

Please enlighten us with the "studies" of the opinions on Houston road quality.

I would make the same argument of you all. You all do not want to believe that anything is wrong with this town. Furthermore, I have made clear that it is my OPINION that the roads can be pretty bad. I dont come on claiming to have seen this study or that study, or know such and such for fact. Just state an opinion. And despite what you would like ot believe, I belive that my experiences allow for me to express such opinions. I am not calling Houston bad for the sake of calling Houston bad. In comparison, its...bad. And OMG, who do i think i am with such opinions. "You had better prove that thar statement you just made that spoke poorly of my town Houston." Get a grip folks. To spend so much energy on little ole me is a bit much. But I guess there is a bit of a culture of defense in these parts. It only lends credence to some of my statements to so vehemently cry foul over my opinions.

We covet what we know. If Houston is all you know, then I guess it makes sense that it must be right to you.

Funny thing about road resurfacing. Just prior to the resurfacing, they are almost ALWAYS horrible. I wonder why that is?

It's how "horrible" they are allowed to get that is an issue.

Perhaps you just need to get out of the touristy areas and business districts when you travel.

Yeah thats right. Thats me Big ole tourista

I'm guessing you don't get out to other cities very often. As I posted earlier, my impression when I visit Houston is that the roads overall are in quite good shape. Hence, the bad ones are especially noticeable (e.g. Kirby south of 59, which is scheduled for a complete re-do soon I believe).

I happen to get out to cities across this country and beyond and the Roads in Houston IN MY OPINION of course, are on a whole in much worse condition. if I did not have experiences in mnay other cities, I would not make statements like...the roads in Houston are on par with the third world. Just my two cents. I can name several other cities with pretty bad roads...probably just as third world as Houston. Certainly there are some wonderful roads in Houston as well. The Redneck freeway a.K.a The 59N is purty nice in parts.

I don't know plastique. Mission Control, the TMC with world class medical care, the second highest number of Fortune 500 companies in the US, Rice, UH, the second highest number of theatre seats in a US downtown, world class museums and architecture, theatre, opera, symphony and ballet-but that's just window dressing, right? Houston really sucks. But what's worse is we are building a huge downtown park, a 3 block long multi-use center on Main, a revitalized Buffalo Bayou, new world-class cancer treatment and rehab facilities in the TMC, core neighborhood centers for latch-key kids, a new DT cathedral with expanded programs for inner city kids and single moms with AIDS, revitalized inner-city neighborhoods, major league sports teams to rival the Arlington Rangers and Irving Cowboys and a world class port. I know there are other negatives I've missed but I'm betting others here can fill in the blanks.

But what about the people. The people are the heart and soul of any town. But no mention of any of them in Houston. interesting.

Seriously though, we have so much going on we're too busy to compare ourselves to other places.

OMG, I have heard it all now. I can R.I.P.

No one is denying issues, however some are denying your ignorant & melodramatic comparisons.

melodramatic? puhleeze girl.

Of corse, we're on a different track then the rest of the nation.

Caue weeeeeeeeerrrrrrrrrrreeeeeeeeee HOUSTON!!! WOOHOO!!!!

i will repeat too. The houston infrastructure is not like a 3rd world country.

Sure it is!

We'll sure miss you.

No you won't

they keep coming up cause you keep repeating them.

Don't shoot the messenger. Not my fault Houston has it's issues. And that it is pratically criminal to discuss them.