HoustonIsHome

Once again, you're describing Market Square. Once the residential tower in the vacant lot to the northwest is filled in particular.

I just hope the International tower gets built or that block gets sold to someone interested in actually doing something with it (preferably not an office tower honestly.)

Read back to my first comments about market square and address the one thing that I have been saying for page after page.

Yes market square has square in its name.

Yes it is patronized highly

Yes it is surrounded by interesting establishments.

But it is still surrounded by Travis, Milam, Congress and Preston. Wide busy roads which doesn't give the area the closed in feeling of a square like Main Street Square.

The streets are all narrow where the new lines cross the red line. The lot at Main, Fannin, Capitol and Texas would have made an excellent pedestrian square. Narrow roads plus good public transit. Isn't that where Sam Houston House used to stand?

Frankly, I think retail would work on any either side.

Yall making a fuss about color?

Seriously? From all the structurally fugly buildings being built, you are making a stink about something that can be changed at the bat of an eye?

Get over the darn building already

Here are two modern examples of town squares.

Notice how the businesses welcome park patrons. Notice how you can stand in the park and see directly into the businesses. Notice store fronts line the park. Notice how narrow the streets are and how low traffic they are. Notice how businesses pour out into the park so that the park and the businesses are one. Vendors meld the park into the surroundings. Business addresses are add follows: 1001 town square.

Compare them to the interaction seen in the DG pic. The buildings around seen to stand aloof. They are all in their own work. Blank walls all around as if to say stay away.

Agreed. Discovery GrTHER is greater than the "neighborhood" it is located in. And I realize that the area around it is still growing/changing and that with more residential and hotel nearby it will become an even more heavily used public space, but that area is not built out to the extent it should be yet. Personally, I'll always see the immediate proximity to the convention center as a failing of the city planners. A shame there isn't at least a city block of developable land between the GRB and DG.

Jackson Square works for me as a "town square" in fact that's a great example.

yes, Disco Green is better than its surroundings, but it is doing its of uplifting the area.

And I agree with the GRB comment. Maybe the upgrades will help.

Llol (literally laughing out loud)

lol, laughing at my typos?

It's essentially a neighborhood with lots of touristy, mall-like attractions. And when they closed off part of Broadway, the progression is complete!Seriously, I can't see what you would want between Discovery Green and GREENSTREET, given that your examples are nothing alike.

not sure what you are concerned about.

Anyway greenstreet isn't exactly wrapping around the park. you guys are coming up with every excuse to make what isnt into what is. kinda like a mom with an ugly kid that she alone thinks is cute, but she tries hard to convince everyone. FACE IT, THERE IS LITTLE INTERACTION WITH THE PARK.

Trust me, I boost Houston more than anyone wise. Discovery Green is a gem in my eyes. But it doesn't function as a square.

Next time you are there walk the circumference of the park and take pics of how many windows you can see through. Take note of how many stairs open down into the park. Take specific note of how easy it is to get from the park to the business across. Take note of the business with the park name attached to it. As in Macys at Discovery Green, or pizza on the green. As far as I know park place is the only related business and they could have done more to interact with the park.

Isn't Market Square a "Square"...and an historic one at that? It used to be Capital Square back when Houston was the capital of the Republic of Texas.

 

Yes, I already said both MS and DG qualify in the general sense. All I'm saying is that it would be nice to get a public space that fits in the narrower definition that I gave.

 

Times Square isn't exactly a "town square", you know...

 times square is a square for my purposes. It fits. 

Wait a second, you're holding up Jackson Square as a good square, yet it has a fairly high percentage of green space to hard space. Now I'm wondering again what's wrong with Discovery Green. Your contention that it doesn't interact with its environment is wrong. People will buy charcuterie in Phoenicia and eat it in the park. Hotel and convention visitors make great use of the park. Parking has been hidden underneath the park so as not to have an annoying parking lot blight. Restaurants are located inside the park itself. It is well integrated.

I knew I would catch flack for Jackson but I listed it more for the memorable factor.

Again, you guys are making it sound like I'm hating on Disco Green and MS. Pardon the shouting but: I THINK THAT THOSE TWO PARKS ARE THE BEST THING THAT HAPPENED TO DOWNTOWN SINCE THE RAIL.

now that we got that behind us, I just think that every open space shouldn't Be the same. All I'm looking for is variety.

I never said that DG doesn't interact with its surroundings, I said the surrounding interaction is poor. As in blank walls on most sides.

I also never said that visitors don't make good use of the park. What I said is that neighboring buildings should be seen as extentions of the park like la carafe, warrens etc are just as Market Square as the park itself.

Don't fight it, they may fit your definition of a square, but Im just looking for something different. Imagine the look of Main street square, with the interaction of Market square but on all sides, then throw in the amenities and crowds of discovery green and you will get what I am looking for.

Jims pic shows how its the collective that makes the settings beautiful.

Not one nice building in that shot but together it looks really nice.

Houstonians remind me of that SouthPark episode what Uncle Jimbo took the kids hunting. You know there one where he told the kids if you shout "omg its attacking" you can shoot any endangered species.

That's how Houstonians do with buildings. Y'all just shout eyesore this abd eyesore that then claim it needs to come down.

Skyhouse is a modern building but it fits in really well. Why is making downtown look better always start with demo. To me the surface scars are by far the ugliest aspects of downtown.

I was shocked when I saw that Hines residential tower didn't include plans to level this tower.

Why do people keep repeat that silly bs that squares are for small towns.

NEW YORK

PHILADELPHIA

SAN FRANCISCO

DC

LONDON

BERLIN

PARIS

ROME.....

All have squares.

Get that silly talk out of your head. Squares are among the most memorable tourist spots in big cities. Many tourist flock to Trafalgar Square in London, ir Union Square in SF, Times square in NY, Jackson Square in NOLA, etc etc

Many cities see the benefit of these tourist spots and are actively repackaging their cities with them. Two names of the top of my head are Dallas and Cleveland. Both far from being considered small towns.

Small town, *shakes head*

I do think it is unfortunate that McDonald's got the larger end of the plot.

It really does look cramped. McDonald's ruins everything...

This is Houston. We change out buildings as quickly as the weather changes.

MCDONALD'S will be gone soon

They should have planted densely along Main in mainstreet square. Lots of big thick trees with hanging moss. Then the water feature should have been landscaped with sLopping grass covered mounds.

Make it look like the train is navigating a bayou. It is the Bayou City after all.

The fountains were a good idea, but it never seems to be working.

Im strict on uptown, but man it sure is getting awesome projects.

Just because something is there doesn't mean it should be. That Sears is in horrible condition, and has a huge amount of land that is under utilized. In addition, Sears is hemorrhaging money. I am not saying it should be torn down. Just redeveloped. Did you know underneath the cladding there is Art Deco detailing? Imagine the possibilities for that space!

If it us under utilized how would you clasify the parking lot directly east or that huge grass tripple lot to the south? Or the empty lots to the Southwest? Or those lots west around the plaza? Or that empty lot to the north. This thing is surrounded by nothingness on all points of the compass. Its not like we are pressed for space in that location.

On a side note, does metro own that lot the wheeler station is located on? The tracks kinda bisects the lot

If it wasn't there there wouldn't be a department store for miles.

Why are we concerned about a lot with a building on it when that building is surrounded by empty lots.

No wonder We develop so sparsely. We have 100 lots, ten with buildings on there, instead of trying something on the other 90 we just keep rebuilding on the occupied 10.

Why not build a Target next door first and when they put Sears In financial trouble then ask why Sears is still there.

You should be thankful Sears is there. After Macy's closed they are the only ones accessible to a lot of people using public transit

you all seem to forget this is a Randall Davis project; it will most likely turn out looking cheap.

I was going to be a Debbie downer but thanks for doing it for me.

I hold hope that it will look as nice as the rendering.

I don't tHink the plans have much room to introduce tack, but I dunno.

Im holding on to hope

I think it should be eliminated entirely. I mean, why is there a train in the middle of this and other areas???

The question is reversed. It should be why did prime real estate develop around train tracks?

You don't think the second type of square would work?

The reason why I stress the hard scape version so much is for the very reason you mention. The haters say Houston is ugly, but I think its very beautiful. It is so green. And because we already have so many trees and parks downtown, I though a square works be a welcomed change.

I dunno I think it would work.

And just imagine when a train comes through the area and completely shuts down Westheimer. It's going to look like a Hurricane Rita evacuation is going down.

I think you'd be surprised. I think a lot of westheimer folks would ride that train.

When I lived on Westheimer 10 years ago many of us would ride the 53 bus to escape the traffic. Anyone remember westheimer before it got repaved in 2002 or 2003ish? The backups now are nothing compared to back then.

I think if the choice is so sit through thus or do sudoku puzzles while someone else takes you to work, I think a lot of purple would ride this. Especial if the rail runs all the way passed the beltway

Oh yeah buddy I am going for the small town comparison. Yep,That's what we should aim for-small town amenities.

Boston spent billions and billions on a massive tunneling project. And DC itself is a very low-rise city. The best comparison would be other Southern cities, of which there are in abundance that have freeways through them. It's worth noting that if you want to play causation/correlation, in the latter half of the 20th century, Southern downtowns and their freeways were more vibrant and healthy than their Northern counterparts.

The only southern city that is close enough on size and stature is Dallas ( ATL is mainly sliced on the southern edge and Miami just has 95 down its spine), and they are in the same boat. Huge city, crappy downtown, with big freeways slicing it up. At least they are doing a good job of closing up the divide caused by the highways. Other major cities are doing the same.

Its not arcane. Why would you have tons if parking in a square?

I swear some of you act like you have never left Texas.

The point of the town square is for the pedestrian outdoors experience. Unlike life centers where you drive from store to store.

There is a name for squares with parking. It's called a parking lot, and downtown has dozens of those.

Enrich your lives. Take a trip. Visit other cities, feel how welcoming these tiwn squares are and how they enrich the memory of your visit.

Houston s number one attraction is the ugly AF Galleria Mall which is.... a mall. His memorable. I went to the 4th largest city in the US last week. It was fun. We went to the mall. Wow.

wtf.. they left those stubs sticking out on the right side that was supposed to be for a skybridge to the old building or something?

Lol, that sky bridge stub is character right there.

Ok, being serious, I have gone by that building hundreds of times. Maybe 1000s and I have never noticed the stubbs in person. I just know about it because if HAIF

They are continuing to create new or expand 3 freeways at the moment. They of course expanded the limited access road in Stanley Park in recent years. No word of any freeways being torn down there, unlike the Houston proposal.

Oh, and even there, two freeways are closer to the middle of downtown than the closest freeway (North Loop) would be in the Houston proposal. So somehow, the proposal is even more extreme than the extreme example we can find. Niiiiice. Let's do that.

Most major cities don't have elevated interstates cutting through like Houston.

NY, SF, Boston etc did good jobs of making there's less conspicuous. Philadelphia, DC etc are not clobbered by elevated freeways either.

Houston has 3 interstates running right through. THREE.

All three are elevated.

Is your intent here to kill downtown rather than to build it up? At this stage in Houston's development, making downtown inaccessible to the average worker will mean more office buildings in the suburbs.

And this approach of dead-ending all freeways at 610 (assuming you meant to include I-10 too) has been tried by exactly zero cities in North America. All have freeways which pass by or dead-end relatively close to the CBD (like Lincoln Tunnel and 495 to Midtown or numerous bridges tunnels to Wall Street; or the FDR, etc.). Tokyo, Beijing, Moscow, and even Paris have freeways closer to their core than this crazy proposal.

Seriously, it's too easy to get stuck in the Inner Loop echo chamber.

Inaccessible? Almost Every darn Houston arterial street is like a freeway. You don't know Houston.

Running the highways to circle the city instead of cut through it will enhance it, but not kill it.

This is all seriously off topic and probably should be moved into a new thread, but to address some points of the above two comments:

2. Everyone who rides the METRO regularly uses Q cards. Those have free transfers between rail and buses.

Duh, any fool knows that. But you still miss the point. RAIL TICKETS DONT TRANSFER TO BUSES!!!!!!!!

Further you can't buy no darn Q card at stations. You get into the city and you better have a bunch of dollar bills and 25c pieces because RAIL TICKETS DONT TRANSFER TO BUSES!!!!!! It's a little stupid to have to find your arse to a grocery store to by a Upass. Every darn station needs to sell tickets that transfer to buses.