Highland Park ISD Seeks to Create $100M Endowment

[mrfootball]

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dw...nt.7c99559.html

HP will pass hat to fund schools

Officials: $100 million endowment would give district fiscal stability

09:25 AM CDT on Thursday, May 4, 2006

By KRISTEN HOLLAND / The Dallas Morning News

The state Legislature has exhausted two years and four special sessions searching for a new way to finance public schools.

Highland Park schools, however, have had enough. Rather than wait for money that's unlikely to come, the district will raise cash a simpler way

[VicMan]

I think that Highland Park should become a part of Dallas ISD - DISD has a lot of businesses that generate immense tax wealth.

[TxDave]

That will never happen. Highland Park ISD is like a public "private" school - probably unlike any other in Texas (completely surrounded by a "poorer" district). You must live in the Park Cities to attend, and only the wealthy can afford to live there.

The school district has plenty of wealth but is constrained by the State's current rules for taxation financing (Robin Hood, tax rate caps, etc.). They will seek additional funding wherever they can -- and will likely get it!

[VicMan]

That will never happen. Highland Park ISD is like a public "private" school - probably unlike any other in Texas (completely surrounded by a "poorer" district). You must live in the Park Cities to attend, and only the wealthy can afford to live there.

The school district has plenty of wealth but is constrained by the State's current rules for taxation financing (Robin Hood, tax rate caps, etc.). They will seek additional funding wherever they can -- and will likely get it!

The thing is that DISD is now a Robin Hood "donor" district. Merging into DISD shouldn't mess with HPISD's finances so much.

Actually, a bit of Highland Park is in Dallas ISD - And a few bits of Dallas are in HPISD.

I do not like the scenario of HPISD - I would give an ultimatum to the district...

They must either:

A. Merge with Dallas ISD and establish magnet programs at all HP schools

or

B. Stay independent but required to fill the school to capacity with surrounding Dallas residents, who must get into HPHS and other schools for FREE, with bus transportation.

Hell, Lamar and Bellaire do fine the way they are (Located in wealthy areas but are open enrollment). Why can't HPHS do the same?

[SpaceCity]

Dallas already had its opportunity to annex HP and UP. Dallas passed on the deal.

Highland Park has absolutely no incentive to fix what is not broken. A lone Internet forumer calling for a social experiment is not a compelling reason to dismantle one of the highest ranked districts in the country.

If Highland Park did what you asked them to do, they would be the stupidest people in the world. They will not, and should not do so.

[VicMan]

Dallas already had its opportunity to annex HP and UP. Dallas passed on the deal.

Highland Park has absolutely no incentive to fix what is not broken. A lone Internet forumer calling for a social experiment is not a compelling reason to dismantle one of the highest ranked districts in the country.

If Highland Park did what you asked them to do, they would be the stupidest people in the world. They will not, and should not do so.

Do you mean the city of Dallas or Dallas ISD?

If the former, I don't mean the city of Dallas.

And even if you mean the latter, you should have been more specific.

Did you realize that school districts do not conform to municipal boundaries? Even if the city of Dallas, say, annexed the city of Highland Park, it would have no bearing on the school districts. See, the city of Houston is served by many districts. Houston ISD also covers multiple municipalities, including West University, Bellaire, Southside Place, small parts of Pearland, etc.

Sorry, but the system is broken. Why do I say this? If HPISD is not issuing transfers to fill their schools to capacity (since the people in the surrounding areas know about the exemplary status and wish to enroll their kids in the schools), HPISD people are denying the HPISD education to Dallas families who would benefit from the HPISD teachers and staff. The suggestion that the system is not broken simply because of the test scores ignores the fact that Dallas ISD families are being shut out out of the schools. A system is broken if only chooses to educate the richest people and leave out poor families.

As for "but they don't want to let in violent kids", remember that the schools can expel any out-of-boundary students for poor academic and/or poor behavioral reasons. The threat should keep the transfer students in line.

Also, HPISD students should have access to DISD magnet schools. Just because the school is rated highly doesn't necessairly mean that a given child will succeed in the environment. A child may need a smaller school (as in around 400-600 people) or a more specialized school (think of the HISD or DISD magnets).

I understand that HPISD residents like the high ratings since it keeps their property values up, and realistically they probably would not do this on their own. But they would not be "stupid" for doing this as long as they can keep tabs on the transfer students who enter HPISD schools.

[SpaceCity]

You don't have a clue.

HP has no obligation to educate students whose parents do not pay the taxes of the school. HP is not broken because it refuses to educate children in the poor neighborhoods of Dallas, Houston or Laredo. HP has an obligation to educate the students in its district. If those students are rich or poor -- HP will educate them. Just like DISD has an obligation to educate the rich and poor students within the boundaries of its district. The district boundaries mean something.

Plus, HPISD schools have been overcrowded for 2 decades. The city is landlocked. No more schools can be built. The current high school was built for 1200 students. It has 1900 students. University Park Elementary was built for 600 students. It has 800. Now VicMan wants to put more kids in already overcrowded schools? Why? Because those kids are poor and their parents don't pay taxes to HP? You're nuts. Seriously. Add children to overcrowded schools because those overcrowded schools are full of rich kids? If there was ever a case of class envy -- you got it.

[VicMan]

You don't have a clue.

HP has no obligation to educate students whose parents do not pay the taxes of the school. HP is not broken because it refuses to educate children in the poor neighborhoods of Dallas, Houston or Laredo. HP has an obligation to educate the students in its district. If those students are rich or poor -- HP will educate them. Just like DISD has an obligation to educate the rich and poor students within the boundaries of its district. The district boundaries mean something.

Plus, HPISD schools have been overcrowded for 2 decades. The city is landlocked. No more schools can be built. The current high school was built for 1200 students. It has 1900 students. University Park Elementary was built for 600 students. It has 800. Now VicMan wants to put more kids in already overcrowded schools? Why? Because those kids are poor and their parents don't pay taxes to HP? You're nuts. Seriously. Add children to overcrowded schools because those overcrowded schools are full of rich kids? If there was ever a case of class envy -- you got it.

And there are literally no poor children within HPISD - Economically disadvantaged: 0% http://www.greatschools.net/cgi-bin/tx/district_profile/491

Also, one of your points is incorrect.

University Park Elementary has 655 students [http://www.greatschools.net/modperl/browse_school/tx/3297] as of last year.

(Edit: As of this year, it's 664 [http://www.hpisd.org/contents2.asp?id=19])

If all HPISD schools are overcrowded (no doubt some are), what is the capacity of Highland Park High School (which has 1921 students [http://www.greatschools.net/modperl/browse_school/tx/3294]).

Looking at the HPISD page of Greatschools, the elementaries range from 535 to 655 for grades K-4. Intermediate has 932, Middle has 948, and high school has 1921. [http://www.greatschools.net/schools.page?district=491&state=tx] - I am unsure what capacities the schools "have", but I would like to see if there are any extra seats and how many extra seats there are.

Lissen, I said IF there are extra spaces in the school. If there are no extra spaces, there is nothing we can do about that.

I understand HPISD so far is only obligated towards its own kids in the district, but this is flawed due to the way the Dallas area is developing. By allowing other poor people into HPISD schools, they enjoy the parental support and the funding that they would not get at the bad DISD schools. This is why, in HISD, that Lamar, Bellaire, and Westside High Schools are overcrowded while Yates, Austin, and a few other high schools are dying out.

Even Spring Branch ISD is now issuing *free* transfers to out-of-district Houston ISD residents to Memorial and Stratford High Schools. This is what I would like to see from HPISD.

[SpaceCity]

Class envy rocks!!!

[VicMan]

Class envy rocks!!!

No, what rocks is the fact that a baby can choose what household he can live in

That is my point for "class envy". Poor families deserve a chance to send their kids to Highland Park ISD schools because kids can't choose what households they are born into!

[SpaceCity]

No, what rocks is the fact that a baby can choose what household he can live in

That is my point for "class envy". Poor families deserve a chance to send their kids to Highland Park ISD schools because kids can't choose what households they are born into!

This has absolutely nothing to do with choosing the family you're born into. Exhibit 12,034 that you're nuts. No one deserves the family they are born into. But those who have worked hard to provide an education for their children should not suffer any detriments because of their hard work. Putting non-taxpaying out of district student in HP takes valuable resources away from the taxpaying student who lives in the district.

Poor families outside the district absolutely do not deserve the chance to send their kids to HPISD. They don't pay taxes to HP. They don't live within the district boundaries. They are taking resources away from those who do pay taxes and do live within the district boundaries. If the schools are already overcrowded, why on earth are they going to open the doors to any more children? How on earth do poor kids who live outside the district "deserve" to be treated like rich kids in the district? HP only owes an obligation to the students in the district who pay taxes. It does not owe an obligation to poor students in the rest of the world. Although HP is rich, but it has finite resources.

I don't care what Spring Branch does. The demographics of Spring Branch ISD are not much different from HISD. It is no where near Highland Park in demographics. School districts shold be able to decide what is best for the school district. HP has no obligation to educate the children outside of its district. No one.

[VicMan]

As I stated in the PM, you missed a few of my points..

1. If the school is overcrowded, it won't get any additional students. "Extra seats" implies that the building is under capacity. If it is over capacity, it gets no one. Also, you missed the phrase "fill to capacity" - i.e. if the building is under capacity, allow additional students in to fill the school to capacity, not OVER capacity.

Since all of the HPISD campuses seem to be either new construction or historically significant construction, tearing down and building larger campuses is out of the question. Expansion may be possible, but I am not sure if it is.

2. This would be made up for allowing a number of HPISD people to send their kids to DISD schools for free. It's just an "exchange" of students with some HPISD students going to DISD schools and some DISD students to HPISD schools.

"How on earth do poor kids who live outside the district "deserve" to be treated like rich kids in the district?"

The philosophy behind public education is that all citizens need to be educated. HPISD is a public school district. Even if it technically only covers wealthy areas, it ought to educate interested folks from surrounding areas IF space permits.

This has absolutely nothing to do with choosing the family you're born into. Exhibit 12,034 that you're nuts. No one deserves the family they are born into. But those who have worked hard to provide an education for their children should not suffer any detriments because of their hard work. Putting non-taxpaying out of district student in HP takes valuable resources away from the taxpaying student who lives in the district.

Poor families outside the district absolutely do not deserve the chance to send their kids to HPISD. They don't pay taxes to HP. They don't live within the district boundaries. They are taking resources away from those who do pay taxes and do live within the district boundaries. If the schools are already overcrowded, why on earth are they going to open the doors to any more children? How on earth do poor kids who live outside the district "deserve" to be treated like rich kids in the district? HP only owes an obligation to the students in the district who pay taxes. It does not owe an obligation to poor students in the rest of the world. Although HP is rich, but it has finite resources.

I don't care what Spring Branch does. The demographics of Spring Branch ISD are not much different from HISD. It is no where near Highland Park in demographics. School districts shold be able to decide what is best for the school district. HP has no obligation to educate the children outside of its district. No one.

[Scoot26]

As a Highland Park resident and tax payer, let me address some of your notions.

1. If the school is overcrowded, it won't get any additional students. "Extra seats" implies that the building is under capacity. If it is over capacity, it gets no one. Also, you missed the phrase "fill to capacity" - i.e. if the building is under capacity, allow additional students in to fill the school to capacity, not OVER capacity.

Since all of the HPISD campuses seem to be either new construction or historically significant construction, tearing down and building larger campuses is out of the question. Expansion may be possible, but I am not sure if it is.

One of the main goals of establishing this endowment is so that HPISD can reduce their class sizes, and reestablish programs that had to be cut because of funding that was stolen from us through robin hood. This fund will pay for new teachers so class sizes will drop, it will pay for our teachers to have the best resources available, it will pay to make sure our teachers are well qualified and educated in their respected fields, it will pay for new extracurricular programs so that our students can enjoy a broad range of activities.

However, you want to see this school stuffed to capacity. Our schools already have class sizes well above the state average, and I can promise you, the parents and residents of HP are not happy about it. You should come to a board meeting sometime or to a parent event, and talk to the administrators and parents. You will find that the residents of HP overwhelmingly want to see our class sizes drop to the low to mid teens. This isn't going to happen when we are having to pay over $75 million a year of our hard earned money to other schools in the state. The residents, myself included, are sick of it. Therefore, I will gladly give to this endowment to see that the future of this community and its schools continue to thrive.

2. This would be made up for allowing a number of HPISD people to send their kids to DISD schools for free. It's just an "exchange" of students with some HPISD students going to DISD schools and some DISD students to HPISD schools.

Haha! Are you serious? Do you really think HP residents will want to send their children to a DISD school? The residents here might be wealthy, but we aren't retarded.

"How on earth do poor kids who live outside the district "deserve" to be treated like rich kids in the district?"

The philosophy behind public education is that all citizens need to be educated. HPISD is a public school district. Even if it technically only covers wealthy areas, it ought to educate interested folks from surrounding areas IF space permits.

If that was the case, our schools will always be crowded. It is not HP's problem that the DISD might have substandard schools in its system. It is not HP's problem that their classes are overcrowded. It is not HP's problem that 82% of students in DISD are economically disadvantaged. It is not HP's problem that DISD's test scores are lacking.

DISD needs to get their own schools in order and the residents in the DISD district should not be allowed to use the HP system because their own schools are lacking. If a family wishes to send their student to HP, then they are free to move into the district. If they can't afford it, well then, welcome to reality. If they have complaints about their school, then they are free to turn to their own school leaders and the state legislature.

It is our parents, students, teachers, and community leaders who have made Highland Park high school into what it is today. We don't put our success in the hands of the state legislature nor do we owe our success to Dallas or the residents in the DISD. DISD and the state of Texas owes a lot more to HPISD than we owe to them. The truth of the matter is that without our money, DISD and other districts in Texas would be really hurting. So please don't chastise us for trying to protect and keep in place a bedrock of our community.

[VicMan]

If they already have class sizes above the average, they would get no additional people. I said that several times in here.

"Do you really think HP residents will want to send their children to a DISD school? The residents here might be wealthy, but we aren't retarded."

When DISD has schools like ... "The School for the Talented and Gifted"... "Booker T. Washington Performing Arts High School"... of course the HPISD residents would (provided they were truly informed about it in the first place.) Now, I'm not saying that an HPISD person would send their kids to... say... South Oak Cliff High (that would be very stupid). The DISD magnets and the really ghetto schools are like apples and oranges. Large school districts like DISD have schools of varying quality.

Remember that some students thrive in "large" schools with all kinds of extracurricular activities, and some thrive in smaller magnet schools with more individualized attention.

Instead of trying to lower HP High classes to inefficient sizes, why not partner up with DISD and establish a small liberal arts magnet that can have small class sizes? The "zoned" school would have the same class sizes that it does now, but parents who wish to have small class sizes can place their kids in the magnet.

As a Highland Park resident and tax payer, let me address some of your notions.

One of the main goals of establishing this endowment is so that HPISD can reduce their class sizes, and reestablish programs that had to be cut because of funding that was stolen from us through robin hood. This fund will pay for new teachers so class sizes will drop, it will pay for our teachers to have the best resources available, it will pay to make sure our teachers are well qualified and educated in their respected fields, it will pay for new extracurricular programs so that our students can enjoy a broad range of activities.

However, you want to see this school stuffed to capacity. Our schools already have class sizes well above the state average, and I can promise you, the parents and residents of HP are not happy about it. You should come to a board meeting sometime or to a parent event, and talk to the administrators and parents. You will find that the residents of HP overwhelmingly want to see our class sizes drop to the low to mid teens. This isn't going to happen when we are having to pay over $75 million a year of our hard earned money to other schools in the state. The residents, myself included, are sick of it. Therefore, I will gladly give to this endowment to see that the future of this community and its schools continue to thrive.

Haha! Are you serious? Do you really think HP residents will want to send their children to a DISD school? The residents here might be wealthy, but we aren't retarded.

If that was the case, our schools will always be crowded. It is not HP's problem that the DISD might have substandard schools in its system. It is not HP's problem that their classes are overcrowded. It is not HP's problem that 82% of students in DISD are economically disadvantaged. It is not HP's problem that DISD's test scores are lacking.

DISD needs to get their own schools in order and the residents in the DISD district should not be allowed to use the HP system because their own schools are lacking. If a family wishes to send their student to HP, then they are free to move into the district. If they can't afford it, well then, welcome to reality. If they have complaints about their school, then they are free to turn to their own school leaders and the state legislature.

It is our parents, students, teachers, and community leaders who have made Highland Park high school into what it is today. We don't put our success in the hands of the state legislature nor do we owe our success to Dallas or the residents in the DISD. DISD and the state of Texas owes a lot more to HPISD than we owe to them. The truth of the matter is that without our money, DISD and other districts in Texas would be really hurting. So please don't chastise us for trying to protect and keep in place a bedrock of our community.

[tcole]

When DISD has schools like ... "The School for the Talented and Gifted"... "Booker T. Washington Performing Arts High School"... of course the HPISD residents would (provided they were truly informed about it in the first place.) Now, I'm not saying that an HPISD person would send their kids to... say... South Oak Cliff High (that would be very stupid). The DISD magnets and the really ghetto schools are like apples and oranges. Large school districts like DISD have schools of varying quality.

Remember that some students thrive in "large" schools with all kinds of extracurricular activities, and some thrive in smaller magnet schools with more individualized attention.

Instead of trying to lower HP High classes to inefficient sizes, why not partner up with DISD and establish a small liberal arts magnet that can have small class sizes? The "zoned" school would have the same class sizes that it does now, but parents who wish to have small class sizes can place their kids in the magnet.

You missed Scoot26's points. The endowment will allow HP to reduce its class sizes as well as develop programs similar to those offered at the specialized DISD magnets. In essence, HP can become its own cafeteria. DISD does not really offer HPISD any quid pro quo in this issue. And your egalitarian argument is preposterous. If HPISD had only three students (read extreme under-capacity), it would still have absolutely NO obligation to the citizens of Dallas (DISD) for the education of Dallas' children, save for the constarints of the "robin hood" plan. I think you are forgetting that the "I" in HPISD does stand for "independent"; and in HP's case as opposed to most others in the state, it can legitimately claim such.

[VicMan]

I understand what he's saying TCole, but I say it's a futile effort. As long as Robin Hood exists, HPISD will have to have larger class sizes to cut back on costs.

In order to keep class sizes down...

* There has to be sufficient space to pare class sizes down since smaller classes require more classrooms

* More teachers have to be hired

" it would still have absolutely NO obligation to the citizens of Dallas (DISD) for the education of Dallas' children, save for the constarints of the "robin hood" plan."

I said that I knew that it legally had no obligation in one of the previous posts. Do I look like I care about that? I don't - I do not like the status quo and wish to see it change.

Highland Park High is only one school, and no matter what, there will always be different students with different needs - HP High cannot serve ALL of those students, and so students need other schools that may better fit their interests. The advantage of large urban districts such as Houston ISD and Dallas ISD is that they can offer different programs catering to different students and schools of all shapes and sizes.

This question should kill the "The endowment will allow HP to reduce its class sizes as well as develop programs similar to those offered at the specialized DISD magnets." argument - How is HPISD going to offer all ranges of courses and social environments and programs at one high school? How is HPISD going to offer all of the same courses that are found at all six of the DISD Townview magnets and Booker T. plus have an athletic program and a traditional program and yet keep the campus at a small class size? (I'm not mentioning the DISD schools just for their sizes but also for their specialized academic programs and courses) How is HPISD going to offer both a laid-back environment and a highly competetive environment at the same school?

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with what HPISD is trying to develop in terms of course offerings. But at the same time, there are always going to be different schools with different environments. There will always be different styles of learning and different approaches to education. A single school cannot offer everything - HP High should strive to offer a traditional education with a reasonable class size (HP faculty should strive for around 20 kids) - And kids who would do better with more specialized training and programs and/or different programs attend other schools.

You missed Scoot26's points. The endowment will allow HP to reduce its class sizes as well as develop programs similar to those offered at the specialized DISD magnets. In essence, HP can become its own cafeteria. DISD does not really offer HPISD any quid pro quo in this issue. And your egalitarian argument is preposterous. If HPISD had only three students (read extreme under-capacity), it would still have absolutely NO obligation to the citizens of Dallas (DISD) for the education of Dallas' children, save for the constarints of the "robin hood" plan. I think you are forgetting that the "I" in HPISD does stand for "independent"; and in HP's case as opposed to most others in the state, it can legitimately claim such.

[tcole]

This question should kill the "The endowment will allow HP to reduce its class sizes as well as develop programs similar to those offered at the specialized DISD magnets." argument - How is HPISD going to offer all ranges of courses and social environments and programs at one high school? How is HPISD going to offer all of the same courses that are found at all six of the DISD Townview magnets and Booker T. plus have an athletic program and a traditional program and yet keep the campus at a small class size? (I'm not mentioning the DISD schools just for their sizes but also for their specialized academic programs and courses) How is HPISD going to offer both a laid-back environment and a highly competetive environment at the same school?

Except your "question" is superceded by a more primary question: Why would a resident of the Park Cities want to send their children to a Dallas school assuming your quetion bears merit in the search for more detailed "specialization" when a more diverse option is available to such affluent families in the form of either a number of the diverse types of private schools in Dallas or boarding schools? In fact, the question I pose is being answered today in that a number of Park Cities families send their children to St Marks, ESD, Hockaday, Jesuit, Greenhill, etc. plus a handful that attend shool at places like Exeter, Lawrenceville, or Deerfiled that do have the capacity to accomodate a broader spectrum of options that you see as beneficial to some cross district program. Do these families have access to such programs for essentially the cost of their property tax dollars today? No, but by and large, Park Cities individuals/families are more likely to desire the diversification/specialization that you propose in an even stronger form and are thus willing and able to pay for it (and I am not even considering that scholarship aspect).

[VicMan]

Except your "question is superceded by a more primary question: Why would a resident of the park Cities want to send their children to a Dallas school assuming your quetion bears merit in the search for more detailed "specialization" when a more diverse option is available to such affluent families in the form of either a number of the diverse types of private schools in Dallas or boarding schools? In fact, the question I pose is being answered today in that a number of Park Cities families send their children to St Marks, ESD, Hockaday, Jesuit, Greenhill, etc. plus a handful that attend shool at places like Exeter, Lawrenceville, or Deerfiled that do have the capacity to accomodate a broader spectrum of options that you see as beneficial to some cross district program. Do these families have access to such programs for essentially the cost of their property tax dollars today? No, but by and large, Park Cities individuals/families are more likely to desire the diversification/specialization that you propose in an even stronger form and are thus willing and able to pay for it (and I am not even considering that scholarship aspect).

Now we are cooking with gas! Now we are getting somewhere! Now I understand the point.

I have another contention: What about the guy who wants to play 5A sports? The only private school in the DFW area that has 5A is Dallas Jesuit. If he doesn't get into Dallas Jesuit, he has to play for a public school in order to be in 5A. HP High is in 4A and intends to remain in 4A.

I've heard a few families within HPISD send their kids to DISD (magnet) schools after paying tuition. I'm not sure how many do that in HP and if they are willing to have a cross district program to relieve themselves of the DISD tuition fee.

[tcole]

Now we are cooking with gas! Now we are getting somewhere! Now I understand the point.

I have another contention: What about the guy who wants to play 5A sports? The only private school in the DFW area that has 5A is Dallas Jesuit. If he doesn't get into Dallas Jesuit, he has to play for a public school in order to be in 5A. HP High is in 4A and intends to remain in 4A.

I've heard a few families within HPISD send their kids to DISD (magnet) schools after paying tuition. I'm not sure how many do that in HP and if they are willing to have a cross district program to relieve themselves of the DISD tuition fee.

4A, 5A? What about the kid in Karnes City who wants to play 5A? That dog don't hunt. And it isn't like HPHS isn't creating Div.I college talent, because it is and always has.

As to your second point; whereas it may be factually acurate (I honestly do not know), I still would find such "facts" surprising. And if true would constitute such a super-minority as to not really support your proposal. And would actually provide the solution to that issue.

[VicMan]

4A, 5A? What about the kid in Karnes City who wants to play 5A? That dog don't hunt. And it isn't like HPHS isn't creating Div.I college talent, because it is and always has.

As to your second point; whereas it may be factually acurate (I honestly do not know), I still would find such "facts" surprising. And if true would constitute such a super-minority as to not really support your proposal. And would actually provide the solution to that issue.

Well, but the Karnes City kid won't get to play 5A because his area is a rural area. The closest 5A high school is miles and miles away and it would be impractical to attend the school. This is a different scenario because here a kid is prevented from playing due to geographical issues. In Highland Park several 5A schools such as W.T. White are nearby. Unlike the Karnes City kid, the Highland Park kid can easily attend W.T. White if there was a inter-district swap program.

Now, I'm not saying at all that HPISD doesn't produce star athletes. I'm saying that some people want tougher competition (5A schools instead of 4A schools) at the high school level.

Now, as for number 2, I wonder how I can figure out how many HPISD-zoned kids (remember that a bit of the city of Highland Park is in DISD, so just because you see "Highland Park" in a DISD school directory doesn't mean the kid is zoned to HPISD) attend DISD schools.

[tcole]

Well, but the Karnes City kid won't get to play 5A because his area is a rural area. The closest 5A high school is miles and miles away and it would be impractical to attend the school. This is a different scenario because here a kid is prevented from playing due to geographical issues. In Highland Park several 5A schools such as W.T. White are nearby. Unlike the Karnes City kid, the Highland Park kid can easily attend W.T. White if there was a inter-district swap program.

Now, I'm not saying at all that HPISD doesn't produce star athletes. I'm saying that some people want tougher competition (5A schools instead of 4A schools) at the high school level.

Now, as for number 2, I wonder how I can figure out how many HPISD-zoned kids (remember that a bit of the city of Highland Park is in DISD, so just because you see "Highland Park" in a DISD school directory doesn't mean the kid is zoned to HPISD) attend DISD schools.

I think you are absolutely correct. It is a matter of geography. If it is so important for the Karnes City kid to play at the "higher" competitive level of 5A, that family can move to another district. The same is true for HPISD residents. But is the competitive level between 4A and 5A THAT different? And what benefit does that "tougher competition" provide if HP is still able to produce Div I college caliber players? I think that that would be a better metric for the caliber of competition in the end. Besides, with the exception of Football, just looking through the HPISD althletic schedules will reveal that most athletic programs have 5A competition on the schedule.

[VicMan]

"If it is so important for the Karnes City kid to play at the "higher" competitive level of 5A, that family can move to another district."

Well, it's not just a matter of it being another district - it's a matter of the fact that the nearest 5A school is literally miles away, in either suburbia or in an urban area. It would be impractical for the kid to commute for so long. Therefore the family would have to move.

Well, part of the reason why I advocate school swap programs for HPISD in both ways is because of the fact that some people may like their neighborhoods but prefer other schools.

* If the family moves, the family may enjoy the school but not like the neighborhood as much

* If the family doesn't move, the family may enjoy the house but not the school

In urban areas many families try to send their kids to schools outside of the district boundaries or otherwise schools they are not zoned to, even if they do not get a change of address. Many families like their neighborhoods but at the same time wish to send their kids to public schools outside of the neighborhood boundaries for a variety of reasons. For instance, in Houston ISD, many HISD teachers who live outside of the district boundaries send their kids to HISD schools (they are allowed to send their kids to the schools without paying tuition). Right now my school has several out-of-district people (one from Pearland, one from Spring, one from Fort Bend County Missouri City..) who attend my school.

In Houston I have not attended any of my zoned schools - I have been to one private school, one partial magnet/partial neighborhood elementary, one all-magnet middle, and one all-magnet high.

[KinkaidAlum]

Just a quick thought...

How many Highland Park/University Park residents USE Dallas city services nearly every day? From roads to rail to water/sewer facilities in their office buildings?

The argument that DISD kids shouldn't be eligible for HPHS is kinda moot when you think about how the folks in Dallas pay for loads of things that Park City folks use for free on a daily basis.

[Scoot26]

Just a quick thought...

How many Highland Park/University Park residents USE Dallas city services nearly every day? From roads to rail to water/sewer facilities in their office buildings?

The argument that DISD kids shouldn't be eligible for HPHS is kinda moot when you think about how the folks in Dallas pay for loads of things that Park City folks use for free on a daily basis.

And you forget that the residents in Park City also pay taxes to the city of Dallas. Their property taxes go to the HPISD while the property taxes of the Dallas resident's go to the DISD.

And most of those services aren't free.

[VicMan]

And you forget that the residents in Park City also pay taxes to the city of Dallas. Their property taxes go to the HPISD while the property taxes of the Dallas resident's go to the DISD.

And most of those services aren't free.

Wait, what do you mean? Are you talking about Robin Hood?

If so, DISD is now a Robin Hood donor. http://www.dallasisd.org/dallaschapter41.pdf

Also, municipal and school district boundaries do not match - HPISD includes small bits of Dallas. A part of Highland Park is in DISD. Other parts of Dallas are in other districts. DISD is not a part of the city of Dallas. HPISD is not controlled by the cities of Highland Park or University Park.

School districts and municipalities are completely separate by law (with the exception of Stafford MSD in Stafford, Texas - Stafford MSD is controlled by the city of Stafford).

All of the following cities are within Dallas ISD:

* Cockrell Hill

Portions of the following cities are within Dallas ISD:

* Addison

* Balch Springs

* Carrollton

* Combine

* Dallas (most of Dallas)

* DeSoto

* Farmers Branch

* Garland

* Highland Park

* Hutchins

* Irving

* Lancaster

* Mesquite

* Seagoville

* Wilmer

All of University Park is in Highland Park ISD

Portions of Highland Park and Dallas are in Highland Park ISD

As for some unrelated trivia: DISD had absorbed many smaller school districts. They include:

* Addison ISD

* Wilmer-Hutchins ISD

* Seagoville ISD

* Vickery ISD

EDIT: Actually, none of Duncanville's in DISD..

[Scoot26]

I understand what he's saying TCole, but I say it's a futile effort. As long as Robin Hood exists, HPISD will have to have larger class sizes to cut back on costs.

In order to keep class sizes down...

* There has to be sufficient space to pare class sizes down since smaller classes require more classrooms

* More teachers have to be hired

Don't underestimate our administration or the parents of this district. Everyone is at their wits end with robin hood and if it means more construction projects, then we will see it done. The problem within most districts is that they put their fate into the hands of the state legislature. Yes, we'll have to accept robin hood, but trust me, no one in this district will let this school crumble by the actions of the state. The good thing is that our schools don't have much of a rate of growth because of the restrictive size of the area.

Highland Park High is only one school, and no matter what, there will always be different students with different needs - HP High cannot serve ALL of those students, and so students need other schools that may better fit their interests. The advantage of large urban districts such as Houston ISD and Dallas ISD is that they can offer different programs catering to different students and schools of all shapes and sizes.

This question should kill the "The endowment will allow HP to reduce its class sizes as well as develop programs similar to those offered at the specialized DISD magnets." argument - How is HPISD going to offer all ranges of courses and social environments and programs at one high school? How is HPISD going to offer all of the same courses that are found at all six of the DISD Townview magnets and Booker T. plus have an athletic program and a traditional program and yet keep the campus at a small class size? (I'm not mentioning the DISD schools just for their sizes but also for their specialized academic programs and courses) How is HPISD going to offer both a laid-back environment and a highly competetive environment at the same school?

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with what HPISD is trying to develop in terms of course offerings. But at the same time, there are always going to be different schools with different environments. There will always be different styles of learning and different approaches to education. A single school cannot offer everything - HP High should strive to offer a traditional education with a reasonable class size (HP faculty should strive for around 20 kids) - And kids who would do better with more specialized training and programs and/or different programs attend other schools.

And why should we "strive" for 20 kids per teacher? Why can we not strive for 12-14 per teacher? HP is not trying to be everything to everyone. I understand that each school has it's own personality, it's own record, etc., but without a doubt, we offer one of the best well-rounded programs possible in the state. That is the biggest draw to our district. The problem today is that student programs are having to depend more on donations to survive. Our students should never have to ask for donations to keep their programs. The people in this district want this endowment, and we will get our school back to where we want it, regardless of what the state legislature hands us or residents of Dallas want.

If HPISD didn't have such a successful program, nobody would even be having this debate.

[VicMan]

Well, several districts that used to be Robin Hood either aren't anymore or have been consolidated..

* Houston ISD is now a Robin Hood donor

* Dallas ISD is now a Robin Hood donor

* Wilmer-Hutchins ISD has closed and has consolidated in Dallas ISD

One thing that may help Highland Park is closing districts like North Forest ISD (takes some poor areas of northeast Houston and unincorporated Harris County) and consolidating them into donor districts (like Houston ISD). That way, more local money affects more local people It also means that less money is taken from HPISD's wallet for Robin Hood expenses.

"? Why can we not strive for 12-14 per teacher? "

What HPISD could do is maybe have smaller core classes for freshmen-level courses (with about 14 per person) with larger classes for senior-level courses (about 20 per person).

If there is space in the city of University Park (where HPHS is located) for additional facilities, I would love to see additional space built. We could lower the class size a bit but at the same time admit some people living outside of DISD into HPHS. In exchange a number of slots would be opened at Townview, Booker T., W.T. White, and Woodrow tuition-free for HPISD residents.

Also, I'm not at all against fundraising for HPISD. Many local Houston ISD do fundraising. For instance, Lamar High wants $3 million http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/nb/bel...ws/3852176.html - And it's likely to get it since the school has ties to the business community.

Don't underestimate our administration or the parents of this district. Everyone is at their wits end with robin hood and if it means more construction projects, then we will see it done. The problem within most districts is that they put their fate into the hands of the state legislature. Yes, we'll have to accept robin hood, but trust me, no one in this district will let this school crumble by the actions of the state. The good thing is that our schools don't have much of a rate of growth because of the restrictive size of the area.

And why should we "strive" for 20 kids per teacher? Why can we not strive for 12-14 per teacher? HP is not trying to be everything to everyone. I understand that each school has it's own personality, it's own record, etc., but without a doubt, we offer one of the best well-rounded programs possible in the state. That is the biggest draw to our district. The problem today is that student programs are having to depend more on donations to survive. Our students should never have to ask for donations to keep their programs. The people in this district want this endowment, and we will get our school back to where we want it, regardless of what the state legislature hands us or residents of Dallas want.

If HPISD didn't have such a successful program, nobody would even be having this debate.