Dallas's Victory Project Vs. HPavilions/East Downtown Development

[tierwestah]

This is a Dallas forum.

I mean dallasmetropolis wise guy.

[TheNiche]

The average Joe doesn't launch threads and post polls about urban development. The average Joe doesn

[Dallascaper]

Also irrelevant. These clusters of development are not built for the niche market of urbanistas and geeks that argue over them for 482(!) posts. They are built for the customers, residents, and employees that will use and occupy them.

That simplifies things greatly and can be useful at times. However, nothing exists in a bubble unto itself. Arbitrary boundaries are thus limited in their usefulness.

Well, you're the one who brought up Joe in the first place!

It was just a suggestion to help keep the discussion focused, that's all.

I mean dallasmetropolis wise guy.

But they're such stiffs over there. If I need info on Dallas I go to DM, if I want a good laugh, I come here.

[scarface]

For anyone who still doesn't understand the comparison in this topic, please see the topic starter's opening post to where he recently edited it to explain the comparison.

tierwestah jones

Thanks tierwester. It seems like you're the only one who pays attention.

For those people who don't understand the comparison, our buddy Redscare made a similar comparison a while back. He was comparing all the developments off Dallas Street and proximity to Houston Pavilions to Victory. That's what i was intending to do. He just explained it in his post better than i did.

see thread:

http://www.houstonarchitecture.info/haif/i...ic=6125&hl=

[rantanamo]

Of course I can: it isn't relevant. If something gets built next door to the boundaries of Victory, isn't it still a part of that area in the way that the average joe percieves it?

No it can't. Victory is a very specific area that is boxed in by dissimilar development. To the South you have the West End, which has a distinctive architecture and history in Dallas. To the West you have Stemmons Freeway and DART Rail corridor. To the North, you have Goat Hill which has a distinctive elevation difference. To the East, you have the Jefferson Apts and Katy Trail, with immediate elevation change. Not to mention, Victory has its own distinctive bunting, decor and lighting. Clearly labeled and clearly landlocked to its specific parcel of land.

You cannot distinguish a part of Houston even if its on one street unless you want to mark specific parcels empty or not empty, planned or unplanned, unveiled or not unveiled. Victory is a development that might as well be one building. There is no Victory area in Dallas. You can compare them if you like, but one is locked to a certain thing vs one that is unlimited. Its no different than comparing your Galleria area to Victory. Might as well compare Preston Hollow(upscale area of Dallas) to Starwood(upscale subdivision in Frisco). Its not really a fair comparison for either.

Suggestion: How about Uptown Dallas vs Dallas St in Houston. Which is a more valid comparison. Both are probably similar in size, both are office and residential districts with many individual developments within.

[RedScare]

No it can't.

You really can't stand it, can you? At least, having made your oh, so obvious posts, right after mine, it is easy for readers to see who is more consumed with making his city's developments "better". That doesn't make me happy, only vindicated. I would still rather have an intelligent discussion of the two areas. Maybe other posters will drown you out.

[tierwestah]

You cannot distinguish a part of Houston even if its on one street unless you want to mark specific parcels empty or not empty, planned or unplanned, unveiled or not unveiled.

Obviously from reading your post, one can assume you are very unfamiliar with downtown Houston. You keep trying to make the comparison as if we're comparing every aspect of downtown Houston to Victory in Dallas. Let me spell it out for you

1. Houston Pavilions is equivalent to Merchantile Project in Dallas

2. Toyota Center is equivalent to AA center in Dallas

3. The New Downtown Park in Houston is somewhat equivalent to Victory Plaza behind AA in Dallas

4. The Park Tower w/ retail at the bottom is somewhat comaparable with some of the retail that's going up in Dallas's Victory

5. Hilton Americas is somewhat comaprable with the new W Hotel in Dallas

Also, The MMP stadium, Inn at the BallPark, and Vic and Anthony's steakhouse in dt Houston are all something to be proud of.

Point is, many of these developments in both cities are all new or have gone up within the past 5 years. Like it or not, there is a development boom in eastern downtown Houston that has been going on for several years and is somewhat comaparable with Victory. Who cares if all the projects are not all tied to one developer? At the end of the day, the average visitor will see all of it as part as one area. All the stuff that will be close in proximity to HP should be counted as well if we're going to compare the entire Victory development to Houston Pavilions. Otherwise, it wouldn't be a fair comparison.

Word from:

tierwestah "tommy" jones

[TxDave]

All of these attempts for direct comparisons between projects in Houston and Dallas are futile.

Of course similarities exist on some level between many of these projects: Houston Pavilions, Victory Park, Greenway Plaza, the Mercantile Redevelopment, Park Lane Place, etc. But each one is unique enough that the differences make exact comparisons impossible.

The reality is that the complexities of each project make it unique and incomparable to any of the others. If these projects were easy to compare, I would think we would be disappointed in the oversimplification that would be the result.

[RedScare]

All of these attempts for direct comparisons between projects in Houston and Dallas are futile.

Of course similarities exist on some level between many of these projects: Houston Pavilions, Victory Park, Greenway Plaza, the Mercantile Redevelopment, Park Lane Place, etc. But each one is unique enough that the differences make exact comparisons impossible.

The reality is that the complexities of each project make it unique and incomparable to any of the others. If these projects were easy to compare, I would think we would be disappointed in the oversimplification that would be the result.

I agree that exact comparisons are impossible. However, this thread is not asking for exact comparisons. It is a discussion board for those interested in these projects to debate the relative merits of each development. At the end of the day, no money changes hands, and no "winner" is declared. But, many people will have enjoyed playing amatuer developer, or amatuer city planner by putting in their two cents as to what makes a development or neighborhood or district viable to the general public. If that seems futile to you, you are not required to participate. And, if others cannot get past the plainly obvious, and utterly inconsequential fact of a single developer versus several, the debate over the various nuances of streetscape design, building placement, attractiveness to tourists, and overall ambiance will frustrate them. So be it. As scarface said, dallasmetropolis exists for just those people who need rules for their posts. This forum is like Houston itself...free-wheeling and untamed. Futile attempts at direct comparisons are welcome here.

Speaking of futile, has anyone seen Plastic lately?

[slfunk]

Some recent pics of Victory. You can Cirque going up in the background on the third pic.

Construction work on the Mandarian:

And the House. You can see the House of Blues underway in the background. They have painted the watertower.

[Coaster]

Wow, it looks so ugly. I was expecting something mind blowing. It looks like Russia or something.

[Trae]

You see this would look better along a street. Main Street in Houston would look better with hd-tv's and news scrollbars going across it than an entrance into a basketball arena. I think the Pavilions could bring some of that to Main. In their renderings, you see multiple tv's lining the street.

[slfunk]

Wow, it looks so ugly. I was expecting something mind blowing. It looks like Russia or something.

Opinions are all subjective.

[Dallascaper]

You see this would look better along a street. Main Street in Houston would look better with hd-tv's and news scrollbars going across it than an entrance into a basketball arena. I think the Pavilions could bring some of that to Main. In their renderings, you see multiple tv's lining the street.

I was at a Mavs game about a month ago, and walking along the east side of the W, I was struck by how barren its street-level presence is, at least on the east. Victory is going to be great, but the street-level excitement it brings is very inward-looking; it all faces streets or plazas that are part of Victory, not regular Dallas boulevards. Having exciting developments the scope of Victory, but along major boulevards, like Times Square or the LV Strip, would be welcome.

[Coaster]

A little warmth and personality would be welcomed too.

[713 To 214]

The jury will be out on the level of "street excitement" Victory can generate, until all of the shops/restaurants opens. I don't even think a third of the retail is open yet. Additionally, most of Victory's residents (the people who'll be walking these streets the most) aren't there yet. I think the Vista and the Residences just opened for occupancy a few weeks ago. The Cirque, The House, and One Victory Tower, are all still under construction. Realistically, I think it will be next fall before we see the type of pedsetrian activity envisioned by Victor's developers, begin to take shape there. Right now, Victory is still very much "under construction."

[The Great Hizzy!]

I'd agree... I don't think it's ever fair to judge a large scale development, with several pieces required to fulfill its promise, until everything is in place. Same could be said about Atlantic Station in Atlanta. Given what was in the area beforehand (such as, empty parcels, vacant warehouses and the like) there's going to be a certain level of blahness to the landscape and this may affect the initial emotional/psychological impact of the asthetics of the project itself from a design standpoint.

That said, I really don't like the design of the plaza itself. Seems to have sort of a new age brutalist feel to it, to me. Maybe more landscaping will cheer things up but it does look like the contemporary inklings of some communist block project.

[RedScare]

The jury will be out on the level of "street excitement" Victory can generate, until all of the shops/restaurants opens. I don't even think a third of the retail is open yet. Additionally, most of Victory's residents (the people who'll be walking these streets the most) aren't there yet. I think the Vista and the Residences just opened for occupancy a few weeks ago. The Cirque, The House, and One Victory Tower, are all still under construction. Realistically, I think it will be next fall before we see the type of pedsetrian activity envisioned by Victor's developers, begin to take shape there. Right now, Victory is still very much "under construction."

While I certainly agree that one cannot gauge a future level of "street excitement" while 2/3 or more of the development is still on the drawing boards, or holes in the ground, I have to question how much "street excitement" one should even expect once these million dollar residences and $100 a plate eateries are open. Victory is not designed to be a row of bars in Daytona during Speed Week. It is designed to maximize profit making opportunities by catering to the wealthy and the faux wealthy. This is not a group prone to Spring Break style craziness, or other activities that make you think "street excitement". Unless your idea of a lively streetscape is watching people who think they are better than you valet their BMWs and Porsche's, the best you might hope for is a few hundred well dressed Dallasites walking from N9NE Steakhouse to the overpriced coffee house, or entering the W to hang out in their rooftop bar.

Even with the well-heeled residents in place, you cannot expect a mob scene. There are less than 1,000 residences being built, meaning less than 2,000 residents. There are only 21 eateries planned, only 3 of which could be called bars. Two are coffee shops, one a chocolate shop, several are high dollar restaurants.

Great place to impress a date? Sure. Good place for "street excitement"? Not likely. Victory will be too expensive and exclusive to draw large numbers of regular people...not that Hillwood or anyone else will be disappointed by that, only that those who are imagining a different vision of Victory than Hillwood envisions, will probably be disappointed.

[tamtagon]

I can tell right now, that my favorite time to visit Victory Park and soak up the ambiance of the development would be right after a Monster Truck Rally, WWF event or Three Ring Circus lets out of the AACenter.

[713 To 214]

Even with the well-heeled residents in place, you cannot expect a mob scene. There are less than 1,000 residences being built, meaning less than 2,000 residents. There are only 21 eateries planned, only 3 of which could be called bars. Two are coffee shops, one a chocolate shop, several are high dollar restaurants.

How did we go from "street excitement" to "mob scene?" You miss the point. The level of activity ("street excitement") that was designed by the developers will be achieved once Victory Park is fully built out. It's that simple. Your suggestion that the developer at Victory somehow has higher expectations is wrong.

[RedScare]

How did we go from "street excitement" to "mob scene?" You miss the point. The level of activity ("street excitement") that was designed by the developers will be achieved once Victory Park is fully built out. It's that simple. Your suggestion that the developer at Victory somehow has higher expectations is wrong.

I did not miss the point at all. I expect Victory at buildout to reach the expectations of Hillwood. However, Hillwood's expectations are vastly different than the expectations of some of the posters on this forum (and the Dallas Morning News), that this will be some sort vibrant street scene akin to Times Square. The only part of Victory that is designed for any type of large crowd is the AAC plaza, and even it will only draw a crowd on game nights, as there will not be any venues attractive to your everyday middle class sports fan (only the well-healed sports fan).

People go to these areas for two reasons, to enter the restaurants, or to be entertained outside. Not many people will spend their Saturday night walking Victory to look at the shiny new towers. Hillwood is not designing this area to be a 21st Century 6th Street, Main Street, or even a Rice Village. It is designed to be a playground for the wealthy. By design, it will not attract large people watching crowds.

Hillwood will get exactly what it is marketing for. It is those that think it will be something more than that who will be disappointed.

[Dallasboi]

While I certainly agree that one cannot gauge a future level of "street excitement" while 2/3 or more of the development is still on the drawing boards, or holes in the ground, I have to question how much "street excitement" one should even expect once these million dollar residences and $100 a plate eateries are open. Victory is not designed to be a row of bars in Daytona during Speed Week. It is designed to maximize profit making opportunities by catering to the wealthy and the faux wealthy. This is not a group prone to Spring Break style craziness, or other activities that make you think "street excitement". Unless your idea of a lively streetscape is watching people who think they are better than you valet their BMWs and Porsche's, the best you might hope for is a few hundred well dressed Dallasites walking from N9NE Steakhouse to the overpriced coffee house, or entering the W to hang out in their rooftop bar.

Even with the well-heeled residents in place, you cannot expect a mob scene. There are less than 1,000 residences being built, meaning less than 2,000 residents. There are only 21 eateries planned, only 3 of which could be called bars. Two are coffee shops, one a chocolate shop, several are high dollar restaurants.

Great place to impress a date? Sure. Good place for "street excitement"? Not likely. Victory will be too expensive and exclusive to draw large numbers of regular people...not that Hillwood or anyone else will be disappointed by that, only that those who are imagining a different vision of Victory than Hillwood envisions, will probably be disappointed.

I disagree.....Simply because most of the excitement and pedestrian activity will come from.........like Tam said,the Basketball games,the Hockey games and all of the events.......Not just rich people.

[713 To 214]

This will be my last comment on the whole "street excitemet" subject. Victory Park will be walkable, and accessible, both physically, and economically, for the people who live there, as well as many who don't (anyone who's actually been there can see this is already happening). The number of concerts, Stars Hockey games, Mavericks Basketball games, Circus, Ice Skating, and other events brings, and will continue to bring, people of all classes, races, and spending habits down through Victory, on their way to the AAC, for 230 + days of the year. Your assumption that Victory is for the rich only is wrong, and shows your unfamiliarity with the place outside of the what's been published on the internet.

[troyboy]

Great place to impress a date? Sure. Good place for "street excitement"? Not likely. Victory will be too expensive and exclusive to draw large numbers of regular people...not that Hillwood or anyone else will be disappointed by that, only that those who are imagining a different vision of Victory than Hillwood envisions, will probably be disappointed.

I totally agree about the expensiveness of Victory. The shops and restuarants are way to costly for most folks (myself included). However, Victory is close to many lower and average priced eateries in West End and downtown. I expect a steady stream of lookie-loos and browsers. The Channel 8 Studios are drawing people down there already. Also, Victory is planning on hosting many community events. The AFI Film Festival this spring will be showing many films at Victory and the development is serving as the center of the event. It was also the starting point for a major marathon a few months ago.

Although the retail and residences are catering to the wealthy, I think Hillwood is attempting to make Victory a real part of the Dallas community.

[C2H]

I personally don't think this development is going to turn this area into a crowded city gathering place overnight. And the "230+ days out of the year" figure that 713-214 gave sounded a little too hopeful. Granted, this area will have development, but things will still take time. It will probably be at least 5-10 years before you really notice any impact. There will be few people living here, but not enough to really spur a city buzz that the developers hope. After the looky-loos and browsers see the development, what then? Just like when people first come to Dallas, they see the skyline. After you've seen it, it's not a big deal. The premier feature in this development are the video screens, which are behind AA. More than likely will only really be used as a hang out area after MAVS games.

[troyboy]

After the looky-loos and browsers see the development, what then?.

I have to somewhat disagree with that. When I came to Dallas, I was anxious to see West Village, Mockingbird Station, and even downtown Fort Worth. I visited all of them, saw them, liked them, and have been back often. The same with Houston. When my parents moved there and I read about the Houston's Main St. revitalization, I was a "lookie-loo" on my first visit. I found places I liked and now visit the area almost everytime I'm in Houston. The area hasn't chaned very much since I first visited, but that doesn't stop me from visiting. I visit Houston at least twice a month, it would be crazy for me to expect a new shiny development to check out everytime I visit. If people like what you have to offer, they'll be back, for whatever the reason., be it to shop, drink, eat, or just hang out and walk around. With your logic, I would only visit most places once.

[Dallasboi]

I have to somewhat disagree with that. When I came to Dallas, I was anxious to see West Village, Mockingbird Station, and even downtown Fort Worth. I visited all of them, saw them, liked them, and have been back often. The same with Houston. When my parents moved there and I read about the Houston's Main St. revitalization, I was a "lookie-loo" on my first visit. I found places I liked and now visit the area almost everytime I'm in Houston. The area hasn't chaned very much since I first visited, but that doesn't stop me from visiting. I visit Houston at least twice a month, it would be crazy for me to expect a new shiny development to check out everytime I visit. If people like what you have to offer, they'll be back, for whatever the reason., be it to shop, drink, eat, or just hang out and walk around. With your logic, I would only visit most places once.

^^^^^^^^^^^Excellent Post!!!!!!!

[C2H]

I have to somewhat disagree with that. When I came to Dallas, I was anxious to see West Village, Mockingbird Station, and even downtown Fort Worth. I visited all of them, saw them, liked them, and have been back often. The same with Houston. When my parents moved there and I read about the Houston's Main St. revitalization, I was a "lookie-loo" on my first visit. I found places I liked and now visit the area almost everytime I'm in Houston. The area hasn't chaned very much since I first visited, but that doesn't stop me from visiting. I visit Houston at least twice a month, it would be crazy for me to expect a new shiny development to check out everytime I visit. If people like what you have to offer, they'll be back, for whatever the reason., be it to shop, drink, eat, or just hang out and walk around. With your logic, I would only visit most places once.

You're speaking from a Visitor's aspect. I was saying as a resident, people won't make special trips to Victory every week and won't just be crowded with activity. Especially not the 230 + days that 713-214 gave.

[tierwestah]

You're speaking from a Visitor's aspect. I was saying as a resident, people won't make special trips to Victory every week and won't just be crowded with activity. Especially not the 230 + days that 713-214 gave.

I see what you're trying to say but i don't totally agree. I think residents in Dallas will go to Victory just like people go to Main St in Houston, 16th Street Mall in Denver, 6th Street in Austin, and Tejon Street in downtown Colorado Springs. It will be a new gathering place. Like Red said, it won't be a continuous strip of activity where you see club after club or crowd after crowd. Granted, people will go but using your words, " the premier feature will be the Video screens". That's basically just a corner in the Victory development which i don't see really generating a whole new and exclusive wave of nightlife.

tierwestah jones

[Trae]

The difference is the price. I don't think those places you listed are as pricey as Victory, plus it is on an entrance into a arena. If it were along a street, it would be different.