Houston Pavilions Vs. Dallas' Park Lane Place

[Analog]

It looks like it's in downtown to me. Oh wait, that's because it is!

[TxDave]

Has this forum really devolved into the arguement of whether the Dallas House of Blues is as much "downtown" as the Houston House of Blues?

That can't be the most important issue!

[TxDave]

Has this forum really devolved into the arguement of whether the Dallas House of Blues is as much "downtown" as the Houston House of Blues?

That can't be the most important issue!

I'm glad to see the House of Blues debate died!

But the truth remains this topic (Park Lane Place Vs Houston Pavilions) is an unrealistic comparison.

Each project will (hopefully) be good for each city, but Houston Pavillions is in the heart of downtown and should inject a great amount of energy - Dallas would love to see a fraction of that with its downtown retail projects. On the other hand, Park Lane Place will be another (perhaps larger) transit oriented urban cluster development in the central Dallas area - a concept Houston has been catching up with in projects like the Allen House redevelopment to Regent Square.

These are projects each city can be proud of, but for different reasons and purposes.

[dfwcre8tive]

New rendering from here.

and here.

[dfwcre8tive]

Here are some recent construction photos from Park Lane Place:

from here.

from here.

[nucklehead]

Does Houston have any TOD's? The Problem with Houston's rail is that it runs in developed areas while in Dallas there are vacuums between business districts for TOD's. So, rather than thinking in terms of developing in downtown and suburban office parks in Dallas like in the old days, real estate companies are beginning to think in terms of micro urban centers that incorporate the transit stations -- mixed use developments -- all along the rail line. The best designed TOD in the nation is thought to be the Mockingbird Station development north of downtown Dallas.

There are 4 billion dollars of private investment in TODs already planned in Las Colina which is the most in the nation. Figure this incredible amount will rise as rail arrives in 3 years.

Is Dallas and Houston really on the same planet in terms of TODs?

[RedScare]

Does Houston have any TOD's? The Problem with Houston's rail is that it runs in developed areas while in Dallas there are vacuums between business districts for TOD's. So, rather than thinking in terms of developing in downtown and suburban office parks in Dallas like in the old days, real estate companies are beginning to think in terms of micro urban centers that incorporate the transit stations -- mixed use developments -- all along the rail line. The best designed TOD in the nation is thought to be the Mockingbird Station development north of downtown Dallas.

There are 4 billion dollars of private investment in TODs already planned in Las Colina which is the most in the nation. Figure this incredible amount will rise as rail arrives in 3 years.

Is Dallas and Houston really on the same planet in terms of TODs?

No doubt about it. As far as suburban development goes, Dallas (or should I say Irving) has got it going on. It is a real shame that Dallas itself is becoming the donut hole.

As far as mixed use goes, have the developers figured out what to do with all of the empty storefronts?

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dw...se.3982e0f.html

It's not really mixed use if the stores don't show up, is it?

[nucklehead]

Good question, Mr. Nifty. I can see the global operations moving, yes. Exxon is really based in Houston although the global operations are based at, how do you put it again, the great magnet that is the DFW / Las Colinas area. Great depiction!

Did you have any comments about the TODs? Aren't the real estate companies in Dallas designing the future TODs in Houston? The industry based there has so much more experience in this area.

The Central Expressway corridor Dallas has always been thought of being the spine extending out from downtown Dallas. Now the depth of its girth is being expanded ever further because of the rail line, the huge population of people who live between downtown Dallas and the Telecom corridor, and the TODs.

[nucklehead]

No doubt about it. As far as suburban development goes, Dallas (or should I say Irving) has got it going on. It is a real shame that Dallas itself is becoming the donut hole.

As far as mixed use goes, have the developers figured out what to do with all of the empty storefronts?

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dw...se.3982e0f.html

It's not really mixed use if the stores don't show up, is it?

I believe the Parklane development will be just north of the classic Mockingbird Station. It is just a matter of figuring out what works. Mockingbird Station works. I bet Parklane will too. Also, it doesn't make sense that mix use works immediately as it really has to mature. I believe DART has plans to move the station north of Parklane to directly connect with the TOD.

Anyway, the eyes of the nation are on Mockingbird Station and its success; while, the real estate industry in the DFW area is independent, competitive, creative and relentless.

[dbigtex56]

Anyway, the eyes of the nation are on Mockingbird Station and its success;

Unless the Summer Olympics, the Presidential Election, the war in Iraq and Amy Winehouse's emergency room have been moved to Mockingbird Station, you may find the eyes of the nation otherwise occupied.

Frankly, I've heard no mention of it outside of this forum. In fairness, the Pavillions isn't national news, either.

[nucklehead]

Unless the Summer Olympics, the Presidential Election, the war in Iraq and Amy Winehouse's emergency room have been moved to Mockingbird Station, you may find the eyes of the nation otherwise occupied.

Frankly, I've heard no mention of it outside of this forum. In fairness, the Pavillions isn't national news, either.

Excuse me. Let me clarify. Mockingbird Station has become the TOD other TODs in the nation are compared. I think the Parklane TOD is smart to build just north of Mockingbird. It is all a matter of what works and the DFW area has a cutting edge real estate industry.

Is the Pavillions even a TOD? I just see how these two developments compare.

[nucklehead]

"Eyes of the nation"?

Have you visited Mockingbird Station, Trae? I have. There is no other real estate development like it in Texas. If you would take the time to experience Mockingbird Station in person, then you would understand why it is becoming the classic that all others are compared.

[Trae]

Have you visited Mockingbird Station, Trae? I have. There is no other real estate development like it in Texas. If you would take the time to experience Mockingbird Station in person, then you would understand why it is becoming the classic that all others are compared.

Yes I have visited it. It is nothing over the top, or never been done before.

[dbigtex56]

Today's posts have been unapproved. A reminder:

Respectful discussions only. My-city-is-better-than-your-city flame wars are not permitted on HAIF. "He started it" is not a valid excuse. Both parties in a flame war may have their accounts suspended or terminated. Just walk away. Flames will be deleted without notice. Please report violations to a member of the moderating team, or to the Editor.

[nucklehead]

Today's posts have been unapproved. A reminder:

Respectful discussions only. My-city-is-better-than-your-city flame wars are not permitted on HAIF. "He started it" is not a valid excuse. Both parties in a flame war may have their accounts suspended or terminated. Just walk away. Flames will be deleted without notice. Please report violations to a member of the moderating team, or to the Editor.

Sorry. I try not to be flaming.

You know, the premise I was trying to argue was the distinction between a TOD like Park Lane and that of the more classical development. Then I happened to notice that it is a Houston company that is actually building the Park Lane project with a partner from Chicago. So, I think Houstonians need to come to terms with the reality of TODs. If the same phenomenon gets going strong in Houston, it won't be the size of the building but the size of the mixed used development.

[Trae]

There are already plenty of TODs in Houston. Mixed-use developments, too.

[nucklehead]

There are already plenty of TODs in Houston. Mixed-use developments, too.

Yes. But TODs won't really take off in Houston until vacuums of undeveloped areas exist between the main business districts. That won't happen until the next expansion.

[Trae]

It's happening now. Go look at the Going Up section, and stop going by what you think. You don't live here.

[nucklehead]

It's happening now. Go look at the Going Up section, and stop going by what you think. You don't live here.

I only saw 4 mixed use projects and 1 project going up in Midtown. Look, this is an impressive amount of development but figure 1/3rd of it won't see the light of day. It's like the two rich kids throwing gold coins in the water until one finally capitulates. Some of these developments are competing against each other.

An example of this is the 42 story tower in Victory competing with the 42 story Museum tower. Victory is the developer who finally said "Uncle."

It isn't how the economy is now. It is how the economy is perceived to be 18 to 24 months. Figure the next President will establish an energy policy which will reestablish the oil market. Eventually OPEC will once again try to flood the world with oil in an attempt to wreck the domestic energy companies that are growing again. Things can turn on a dime. Be watchful for cancelled real estate developments in Houston. That will be a sign that the energy market is headed for another downturn.

[RedScare]

I only saw 4 mixed use projects and 1 project going up in Midtown. Look, this is an impressive amount of development but figure 1/3rd of it won't see the light of day. It's like the two rich kids throwing gold coins in the water until one finally capitulates. Some of these developments are competing against each other.

An example of this is the 42 story tower in Victory competing with the 42 story Museum tower. Victory is the developer who finally said "Uncle."

It isn't how the economy is now. It is how the economy is perceived to be 18 to 24 months. Figure the next President will establish an energy policy which will reestablish the oil market. Eventually OPEC will once again try to flood the world with oil in an attempt to wreck the domestic energy companies that are growing again. Things can turn on a dime. Be watchful for cancelled real estate developments in Houston. That will be a sign that the energy market is headed for another downturn.

Wrong again. Real estate development lags the economy, not the other way around. To use your energy market example, the oil markets crashed in 1982. Real estate development continued for a few more years before crashing in the mid 80s.

[nucklehead]

Wrong again. Real estate development lags the economy, not the other way around. To use your energy market example, the oil markets crashed in 1982. Real estate development continued for a few more years before crashing in the mid 80s.

Have you ever heard of the "Crazy Canadian theory"? Look. All the banks went belly up in Texas. You are telling me that real estate was still great during the oil depression? We are talking depression here, not recession. What years did the Houston metropolitan area lose population? Houston didn't go through the oil depression during 1982. I was still making lots of money at Greenspoint Marriot during that time as a Room Service Waiter. Arco oil was renting a penthouse daily while ordering a thousand bucks of refreshments (plus 15% gratuity).

If a project got started during the crash, they had to finish it. The Canadian developers didn't care because they didn't come to Texas to fill up the office buildings with workers. They came to Texas to invest so they could escape the Candian economy. The real estate in Texas went from absurd, to extremely absurd, to Crazy Canadian. If it weren't for the crazy Canadian developers, downtown Dallas wouldn't have its tallest building today while it wouldn't have its extremely high vacancy rate (Take away four skyscrapers at least). The amount of cancelled projects in Houston alone amounted to almost 100 million square feet of office space planned in the Greenpoint area. You have to be kidding me. How many office projects got cancelled in Houston? The western portion of downtown where the convention center, baseball stadium and basketball stadium exist today was a planned development of nothing but office buildings. The Houston metropolitan area was predicted to have 20 million people by the year 2000. There was talk of building a mile high skyscraper in the city. Boom! Zoom! Bust!

[RedScare]

Have you ever heard of the "Crazy Canadian theory"? Look. All the banks went belly up in Texas. You are telling me that real estate was still great during the oil depression? We are talking depression here, not recession. What years did the Houston metropolitan area lose population? Houston didn't go through the oil depression during 1982. I was still making lots of money at Greenspoint Marriot during that time as a Room Service Waiter. Arco oil was renting a penthouse daily while ordering a thousand bucks of refreshments (plus 15% gratuity).

If a project got started during the crash, they had to finish it. The Canadian developers didn't care because they didn't come to Texas to fill up the office buildings with workers. They came to Texas to invest so they could escape the Candian economy. The real estate in Texas went from absurd, to extremely absurd, to Crazy Canadian. If it weren't for the crazy Canadian developers, downtown Dallas wouldn't have its tallest building today while it wouldn't have its extremely high vacancy rate (Take away four skyscrapers at least). The amount of cancelled projects in Houston alone amounted to almost 100 million square feet of office space planned in the Greenpoint area. You have to be kidding me. How many office projects got cancelled in Houston? The western portion of downtown where the convention center, baseball stadium and basketball stadium exist today was a planned development of nothing but office buildings. The Houston metropolitan area was predicted to have 20 million people by the year 2000. There was talk of building a mile high skyscraper in the city. Boom! Zoom! Bust!

Have you ever heard of revisionist history? While you were picking up dirty plates in a hotel in 1982, I was interviewing with 60 oil field companies who were implementing hiring freezes. I ended up getting a job, not in oil, but in construction. Construction continued for up to 2 years after the oil bust. When construction finally dried up, it exposed the savings and loan fraud, which, for Houston, was the final straw.

But, knock yourself out. Debunking your myths is a lot easier than going out to mow my yard.

The Houston metropolitan area was predicted to have 20 million people by the year 2000.

Just one of your many WILDLY exagerated claims. Never happened. Never even predicted. Ever.

[Coaster]

Have you ever heard of the "Crazy Canadian theory"? Look. All the banks went belly up in Texas. You are telling me that real estate was still great during the oil depression? We are talking depression here, not recession. What years did the Houston metropolitan area lose population? Houston didn't go through the oil depression during 1982. I was still making lots of money at Greenspoint Marriot during that time as a Room Service Waiter. Arco oil was renting a penthouse daily while ordering a thousand bucks of refreshments (plus 15% gratuity).

If a project got started during the crash, they had to finish it. The Canadian developers didn't care because they didn't come to Texas to fill up the office buildings with workers. They came to Texas to invest so they could escape the Candian economy. The real estate in Texas went from absurd, to extremely absurd, to Crazy Canadian. If it weren't for the crazy Canadian developers, downtown Dallas wouldn't have its tallest building today while it wouldn't have its extremely high vacancy rate (Take away four skyscrapers at least). The amount of cancelled projects in Houston alone amounted to almost 100 million square feet of office space planned in the Greenpoint area. You have to be kidding me. How many office projects got cancelled in Houston? The western portion of downtown where the convention center, baseball stadium and basketball stadium exist today was a planned development of nothing but office buildings. The Houston metropolitan area was predicted to have 20 million people by the year 2000. There was talk of building a mile high skyscraper in the city. Boom! Zoom! Bust!

Maybe the oil bust of the 80's was the best thing to ever happen to Houston. I like what's going on now in east downtown a lot more than 'nothing but office buildings'. Also, having gone through one oil bust will prevent us from going through another. The energy industry may account for 47% of Houston's economy today, but it was something like 78% just before the 80s oil bust. At this rate in 20 years the energy industry will only account for about 20% of Houston's economy.

ZOOM!

ZOOM!

ZOOM!

[Coaster]

Just one of your many WILDLY exagerated claims. Never happened. Never even predicted. Ever.

I understand it's fun to play with nuckelhead. But don't worry, anyone with even half the use of their brain would never take the undocumented 'figures' he's constantly pulling out of his ass seriously. He's a clown. You know it, I know it, the mods know it, and even nucklehead knows it.

It is 105 degrees in Dallas today with humidity. The heat index makes it something like 117 degrees today. What else does poor nucklehead have to do today except stay indoors and think up absurd theories, crazy predictions, and do a little trolling.

Expect more of this nonsense until the heat tapers off a little in Dallas.

[nucklehead]

Have you ever heard of revisionist history? While you were picking up dirty plates in a hotel in 1982, I was interviewing with 60 oil field companies who were implementing hiring freezes. I ended up getting a job, not in oil, but in construction. Construction continued for up to 2 years after the oil bust. When construction finally dried up, it exposed the savings and loan fraud, which, for Houston, was the final straw.

But, knock yourself out. Debunking your myths is a lot easier than going out to mow my yard.

Just one of your many WILDLY exagerated claims. Never happened. Never even predicted. Ever.

Your attitude about restaurant help is ignored.

Did you ever here about the Crazy Canadian theory? How over building can go from absurd, to beyond absurd, to crazy Canadian? I guess not. Perhaps Houston didn't get a lot of development from Canadian companies like Dallas.

I understand it's fun to play with nuckelhead. But don't worry, anyone with even half the use of their brain would never take the undocumented 'figures' he's constantly pulling out of his ass seriously. He's a clown. You know it, I know it, the mods know it, and even nucklehead knows it.

It is 105 degrees in Dallas today with humidity. The heat index makes it something like 117 degrees today. What else does poor nucklehead have to do today except stay indoors and think up absurd theories, crazy predictions, and do a little trolling.

Expect more of this nonsense until the heat tapers off a little in Dallas.

This forum is biased.

[RedScare]

I understand it's fun to play with nuckelhead. But don't worry, anyone with even half the use of their brain would never take the undocumented 'figures' he's constantly pulling out of his ass seriously. He's a clown. You know it, I know it, the mods know it, and even nucklehead knows it.

It is 105 degrees in Dallas today with humidity. The heat index makes it something like 117 degrees today. What else does poor nucklehead have to do today except stay indoors and think up absurd theories, crazy predictions, and do a little trolling.

Expect more of this nonsense until the heat tapers off a little in Dallas.

I can't stop laughing at this. I went out in the yard to do some yard work. Even though it is already 90 or so here, I chuckled to myself that since it is 105 in Dallas, nucklehead probably has nothing better to do than make up statistics and history on a Houston forum. Imagine my surprise when I sit down for a break and find you just wrote the same thing.

This forum is biased.

Against false statements, false statistics and false recollections of history, yes, yes it is.

Did you ever here about the Crazy Canadian theory? How over building can go from absurd, to beyond absurd, to crazy Canadian? I guess not. Perhaps Houston didn't get a lot of development from Canadian companies like Dallas.

No, but Houston has not had 25 consectutive years of nearly 30% office vacancy like Dallas has, so our developers have never been accused of being crazy. Conservative, yes. Crazy, no.

[nucklehead]

I can't stop laughing at this. I went out in the yard to do some yard work. Even though it is already 90 or so here, I chuckled to myself that since it is 105 in Dallas, nucklehead probably has nothing better to do than make up statistics and history on a Houston forum. Imagine my surprise when I sit down for a break and find you just wrote the same thing.

Against false statements, false statistics and false recollections of history, yes, yes it is.

No, but Houston has not had 25 consectutive years of nearly 30% office vacancy like Dallas has, so our developers have never been accused of being crazy. Conservative, yes. Crazy, no.

Okay. Maybe this will help explain why overbuilding isn't perceived as much of a problem in DFW as it is in Houston

The METROPOLITAN AREA of Houston lost population for 2 years back during the oil business depression (Well, the state of Texas did lose its major banks). For the longest time when the city of Houston was trying to pick back up steam, the suburb of Plano was out growing it. That isn't unstability but reality manifesting itself in a one industry town. You can't have your cake and eat it too. To live in an over heated economy, one must put up with busts from time to time. Those busts cause unhealthy glitches when comparing the Houston market to DFW's diversified economy. If the glitch lasts for five years in Houston while the population of DFW only slows to its conservative growth of 160,000 a year, that could increase DFW's population lead by as much as three quarters of a million (the conservative growth of 160,000 a year over 5 years added onto any amount that the Metropolitan area of Houston loses). This is why the DFW metropolitan area continues to get development even when it is already overbuilt while investors tend to be more careful in Houston.

[RedScare]

Okay. Maybe this will help explain why overbuilding isn't perceived as much of a problem in DFW as it is in Houston

The METROPOLITAN AREA of Houston lost population for 2 years back during the oil business depression (Well, the state of Texas did lose its major banks). For the longest time when the city of Houston was trying to pick back up steam, the suburb of Plano was out growing it. That isn't unstability but reality manifesting itself in a one industry town. You can't have your cake and eat it too. To live in an over heated economy, one must put up with busts from time to time. Those busts cause unhealthy glitches when comparing the Houston market to DFW's diversified economy. If the glitch lasts for five years in Houston while the population of DFW only slows to its conservative growth of 160,000 a year, that could increase DFW's population lead by as much as three quarters of a million (the conservative growth of 160,000 a year over 5 years added onto any amount that the Metropolitan area of Houston loses). This is why the DFW metropolitan area continues to get development even when it is already overbuilt while investors tend to be more careful in Houston.

Except that your own newspaper says that development is all but stopping in DFW for the next 2 years. You are welcome to come down and look at our construction any time you like, though.

[editor]

Respectful discussions only. My-city-is-better-than-your-city flame wars are not permitted on HAIF. "He started it" is not a valid excuse.

Thread closed.