livincinco

...oh really? Just whom are your "most posters"? I moved to Houston from Beaumont, TX during the early 80's right out of high school. As a means to help support myself through college, I worked contractual jobs throughout the downtown region. I for one, can openly assure anyone...that downtown retail was a dire need then....and most definitely is today.

If I could not find any needed items within the downtown district, then I would head over to the Galleria.

Anyone remember the old, magnificent, and very different from today's Abercrombie and Fitch? This boutique was located within the then newly built Park Shops? That place was perfect....and hands on service was incredible...albeit a bit expensive. Downtown Houston retail establishment's have dried up considerably. I now thank God for new and incredible establishment's like "Phoenicia". This place is fast becoming a major player. Anyone and everyone should try one of their delicious meals that they serve within their hot deli....upon any given day or night.

You are a great Haif poster my good pal "livincinco". But I think that maybe you have been "livinincinco" a bit to long....

The time for Downtown Houston is NOW! Just build it... and I can assure you that they will come. Trust me, I shall be the first in line....Monarch

It really entertains me to see the level of assumption that is made just based on the name "livincinco".

I'm all in favor of continuing development in downtown and I wish all kinds of success to the continuing retail and residential development in that area. I applaud your enthusiasm, I just don't think that it's realistic. You are absolutely correct that retail dried up in downtown Houston. That's been an ongoing trend in cities across the country for 40 years or more and there's really no sign that is reversing in any kind of significant way.

Look around Houston and other comparable cities, urban renewal is bringing increased restaurant and entertainment, but it's not driving significant retail growth. Pavilions is a perfect example. It was pretty successful in picking up restaurant and entertainment tenants, but had a pretty horrible track record with retail tenants.

Downtown needs a strong base of "neighborhood" retail - a Target, a CVS, an HEB, and other conveniences for residents way more than it needs an Apple store.

I disagree. I think part of the reason Phoenicia has managed to do well is the fact that it's basically a "destination" grocery store. Even in Montrose I live closer to half a dozen grocery stores than to Phoenicia, but I'll still shop there because they offer something unique.

 

I think the trick is finding retail that is useful to people who live downtown but also attracts people from the surrounding neighbrohoods

I love Phoenicia but I'm not sure they are a good example of destination retail.  Mainly because I'm going to guess that a large portion of their profits are from MKT Bar and their lunchtime deli business.  That's really dining/entertainment revenue, not retail.  I think that they would have a much tougher go of it if they were trying to exist strictly on their grocery revenue.

I get your point though.  Phoenicia is reasonably unique and other than heading out to their location on the West Side, you're really not going to find anything comparable in the city.  Phoenicia could have picked a dozen locations inside the loop and been successful.

There's very little retail that can expect that kind of draw.  Basing expectation on drawing from the population in the immediate neighborhood is a much safer bet.

I think that Iron Tiger's original point though is about the type of retail that is desired.  I agree with his point that high end retail is not particularly desirable downtown.

I agree with most posters that downtown retail should not be destination retail.

If it didn't translate to reality would the city bother wasting time studying it as an option?

I'm not sure I understand your comment.  It looks like the city is looking at a series of different options for the area including creating a tunnel.  They may choose one of the options, they may choose to do nothing. 

I'm assuming that there would be some kind of project cost analysis done as well before any kind of decision is made.

I think that it's good that the city is looking at alternatives, whether it actually translates to reality is another question entirely.

This forum's deep negativity and rush to attack and criticize every building project in this city never ceases to amaze. We are quite used to attacks on renderings, and attacks on uncompleted buildings...

but now we are getting attacks on planned buildings based on having seen or heard "or whatever" a lecture by a theorist who, according to rumor, has a big influence on the work of the project's architect??????

Well...yes...based on this information, the building is clearly going to suck. How could anyone conclude anything different???

And by a designer whose firsthand soaking-up of locality probably began since 2011... I would have liked to see what Chung and Chuong Nguyen, architects with a deeper sense of Houston, would have formed here. Probably something less monolithic or hammily organic.

I take it then that you've actually seen the design since you're criticizing it. Can you provide some more detail about it?

I'm curious how this will compete with the GRB. Aren't the depicted events such as OTC and FanZone currently held in the GRB? And, for the SuperBowl, it seems the focus might shift from downtown and Discovery Green to the Astrodome if major events such as FanZone are relocated to the Astrodome. Hope I'm wrong, but just seems odd that we'd be expanding the GRB, adding hotels and retail around it, then shift some of its biggest events to another location.

The OTC is already held at Reliant. Understand your point about FanZone, but there's a certain amount of logic in holding it next door to the actual game.

The expansion of GRB is much more about competing with other cities to establish Houston as a premier convention city than it is about competing with Reliant. They should be complementary from that standpoint.

Pennzoil Place earned Johnson a Pritzker. The three most architecturally significant buildings in houston are probably the Menil, MFAH, and Pennzoil.

Landmark designation tends to happen *after* 50 or years, though exceptions are made. Pennzoil is less than 40 years old.

OK, I'm clearly not an architect.

Sometimes the value of a building to the community is greater than to the owner.

Sure and such buildings are generally designated as national landmarks. Seems like a stretch to me to put this building at that level.

So, just to reset the conversation, everyone is getting all worked up about a renovation that, at last check, is really just something that has been guessed at on this forum. Don't you think that it might be a good idea to find out what the plans actually are before the outrage starts?

 

In response to both livincinco and fernz:

 

For some reason, I was thinking about George Bush Park and Bear Creek Park. You're right about Terry Hershey Park...it is VERY nice, and it has some of the best trails in town right along the bayou. It's a good thing none of these areas are in jeopardy of being developed.

 

That said, I still feel the same way about this project. Do you guys agree that this area was one of the nicest in the actual EC (where land can be and is being developed) before the bulldozers took over? To develop on a plot of land like this (as opposed to a plethora of what I'd like to think we could all agree to be "less appealing areas than this" nearby) is just wasteful on at least a few levels IMO.

 

I agree that it's nice and that there are other less appealing areas that could have been developed, but it's pretty hard to build a building if you don't own the land.  It's great to say that they should develop on "less appealing areas", but since we don't know whether they could actually acquire that land, this becomes pretty hypothetical.

Elle O'Connor (Lorde) is 16 years old that's why it sounds tween. It's a very catchy song. Check out Walk The Moon if you like synth pop.

How's that? The midtown crowd is into partying a lot more than downtown. Seems like two separate groups to me.

Just my opinion, but I think that residential development in South Downtown will steal from development in Midtown in the short term. But then again, I've never been that bullish on Midtown. The party scene tends to move in Houston.

I actually think that the continued growth of downtown is going to be a short term setback for development in Midtown.

I think you have it backwards. Montrose, Midtown, and Heights are still adding people and retail, it is downtown that is catching up.

I actually think that the growth of residential downtown is going to hurt Midtown short term.

I was just referring to the EC itself, but I'm unaware of anything nearby that most people would consider as (or especially "more") naturally beautiful or appealing as what was shown in the picture above before the bulldozers came. It wasn't just the pond...all those trees are gone now, too. I understand how people have their own taste and everything, but I don't see how anyone can honestly look at that picture and tell me with a straight face that what I said was an "exaggeration"...that is if they're considering others' "taste" for more than a nanosecond.

The parks are nice and spacious, but they by and large don't have the mature pines that the EC is losing on what seems to be a daily basis. That's about as far west as those pines go in Houston.

There's a pretty significant number of equally mature pines in both parks. It's a nice pond, but it isn't particularly unique. There are a number of equally nice areas within proximity.

It's also manmade. Its not irreplaceable.

Im not concerned about that pond. It's not like we could fish there or it was home to some endangered species of fish.

What i am concerned about is the location of the project. Horrible.

It is a shame to build new offices in a high growth business district.  This complex is going to be so lonely with only about a half a dozen similar buildings/complexes currently under construction in the area.

The Energy Corridor is much larger in size than downtown Houston. It has (had) MANY other options as far as locations are concerned for a project like this. Some of the most mature and naturally beautiful green space in the area just got wiped out for this.

The Energy Corridor is essentially between two large regional parks.  It's a nice detention pond, but I think that it's a little bit of an exaggeration to call this some of the most naturally beautiful green space in the area.

I agree. This really doesn't mean anything. Chicago still has over 3 million people more than Houston in the metro.

Urbannizer you are fantastic! Houston is going to look different in two years. I really feel we will past Chicago in population. They are really concerned about it.

The only way that Houston passes Chicago in population anytime in the near future is if CoH does a big annexation. There's currently about 500k more people in the city of Chicago.

Isn't this the point that someone usually whines about how nothing interesting ever gets built in Houston?

My guilty pleasure is the daily soap opera that is HAIF. I keep telling myself that I should walk away, but I just can't seem to do it.

I was a little disappointed that they didn't include the FPSF guys in their planning, but it looks nice.

ALL THESE PEOPLE WAITING FOR A TABLE ARE MAKING MY RESTAURANT VERY CROWDED!!! 

I talk the owner of Warren's and she also owns La Carafe and the only thing she said is traffic will get worse.

That's the first time I have ever heard a restaurant owner complain about increasing residential in the immediate vicinity of their business.  Do you think maybe her business might get better having a residential highrise across the street?