kdog08

Perhaps you haven't noticed, but Uptown is built on a suburban street grid. The McDonalds fits just fine there. Besides, the only change OK City demanded of the McDonalds in Bricktown is that they clad the McDonalds in brick, to fit with the other buildings. They did not remove the drive thru. The new modern McDonalds is already a style that fits in Uptown.

 

I still don't understand all the uproar over this little McDs. Why not go large and complain about all of the strip centers all up and down Post Oak and Westheimer? Why not demand GFR in all of those condo towers? Let's gripe about something that actually matters!

Yet Uptown is trying to add BRT and a drive through McDonalds is being rebuilt. This is a perfect example of the need for some sort of balance between planning and free market. 

Don't worry. When all 27,000 apartment units hit the market those rents are going to come down, way down.

I'm making a prediction.  But like most of my predictions about markets, I am correct on the projection, but usually way off on the timing.  No market is completely free or 100% efficient.  This is why I work really hard for somebody else. 

 

Historic numbers of new apartment units hitting the Houston market right about the time interest rates start rising from their historic lows has to eventually move the rental & housing markets I would guess. 

So how low we talking 'bout?

Yep, life was so much better when it looked like this:

 

 

 

 

 

 

or like this:

 

 

or this

 

 

After all, there were no pesky freeways then.

.... add some wifi and you're golden. 

Your question was answered in post #17.

So what was the solution to our state bridge situation in the OP and to a lesser extent the overall infrastructure in our rapidly growing state? Status quo..... or......? 

I honestly think if we finished the university and uptown lines, with an extra two lines, one going to each airport (and also greenspoint as a result), we would have a fairly good transit system for the city. After that, all the expansions would basically be commuter rail like westpark ROW, galveston, hempstead, Fort Bend, etc. Katy could've been another one but those tracks were ripped out unceremoniously.

I agree with the u-line and uptown line. However, I think Houston should focus on local and park&ride (commuter bus) and a "brain train" commuter rail from UTMB at Galveston to TAMU in college station. However, if we are doing an entire highway expansion we should seriously look at rail, 290 and 288 are coming up. I think next major ones after that will be 59S inside the beltway and 45S.

That has nothing to do with what I was saying.

 

Houston has the worst public transit system of any large city in North America. And it's due to the citizens and politicians.

 

They've also left tremendous public transportation upgrades for the cities that hosted them. Atlanta, Sydney, Athens, Vancouver, etc.

 

You're right, let's just do nothing, like we have for the last 30 years. We're Houston and we know what's best, the rest of the world is just stupid.

We certainly need to improve our system but in terms of hosting events I would argue we have a very underrated transit system. We will soon have all of our major sports venues connected to rail and hotels and night life. We could open up the park&ride and make flexible bus schedules to accommodate events, like this superbowl. Then us Houstonians can leave our cars at the park&ride or carpool to the P&R.  

That has nothing to do with what I was saying.

 

Houston has the worst public transit system of any large city in North America. And it's due to the citizens and politicians.

 

They've also left tremendous public transportation upgrades for the cities that hosted them. Atlanta, Sydney, Athens, Vancouver, etc.

 

You're right, let's just do nothing, like we have for the last 30 years. We're Houston and we know what's best, the rest of the world is just stupid.

We certainly need to improve our system but in terms of hosting events I would argue we have a very underrated transit system. We will soon have all of our major sports venues connected to rail and hotels and night life. We could open up the park&ride and make flexible bus schedules to accommodate events, like this superbowl. Then us Houstonians can leave our cars at the park&ride or carpool to the P&R.  

OTC and Rodeo don't really compare to the Superbowl. The Superbowl is a large party that will be spread across many of Houston's scenes that will involve not only out of towners but a large crowd drawn from Houston's 6 million peeps. 

Yea at bagby and gray

Go on......

Exactly. What it requires is a little organization and planning (i.e. let's not have a bunch of events/autograph sessions/whatever at the same time in the same place, a la the All-Star weekend.) Distribute the events and maybe lease some buses to circulate between venues and park and ride lots. The rodeo estimated 2013 total attendance at 2.5 million with a single day attendance of almost 175k. They do that every year without major disruptions or need for millions in additional infrastructure. I think we can handle the Super Bowl.

I certainly still support the U-Line and Uptown Line, but fiscal realities may still have that postponed for the superbowl.

However, the rodeo really isn't a comparable event. The Superbowl may have 100K (please correct me if I am wrong) as the stadium will seat 70-80K plus extra for events around the stadium. I would imagine a far greater amount will be in places like Downtown, Uptown, Midtown, and Washington Ave (maybe east end comes alive?). 

Therefore, I agree that a temporary solution should involve express bus. We could run it down Memorial like someone mentioned or downtown via 59 to wheeler (could add a kirby ave stop as that area seems booming).

I think the bigger question is what kind of scene we will have down the Main St line. Midtown will (hopefully) have filled many of the large gaps alongside the rail as land finally started becoming scare and downtown after the residential incentives and hotels. I think we can agree a few more projects will be announced in these areas from what we know now and in between. Good God, we may have a true transit oriented part of town and it will only have taken 16 and some odd years....

I doubt they finish the BRT in Uptown before 2017, let alone building rail.  Unfortunately that ship has sailed.

I dunno..... it could be done in time. 

Work being done on midtown park as well

Park?

Certainly helped by approximately 1000 apartment units and 1500 hotel units coming online in the next few years. 

We don't need zoning, we just need better urban infrastructure (streets, sidewalks, bike paths, parks, mass transit) and tweaks to parking requirements and setbacks. 

Something about this tower makes it fit in with the rest of the galleria residential towers. 

Smoggy 

I think downtown will incrementally get better, as it has too much competition from nearby hot spots such as Midtown, 4th ward, Montrose, Upper Kirby, East end. Hopefully the current incentives will spur a few more residential projects pretty soon. We got several hotel renovations and a 1000 unit convention hotel in the works. We got some pretty good parks in downtown, along with the Buffalo Bayou greenbelt getting a major ~$50 million makeover that connects to downtown's west end. Lots of stuff to be excited and hopeful about for a more complete downtown. In the end, it will be adding a good mix of more residential and hotel over time, along with at least an office tower or two every five years that will make downtown a more live/work/play environment.

This is how it works...

I walk 10 minutes to the bus stop at Richmond and Dairy Ashford, board a bus that takes me to Wheeler station where I either board another bus or use Metrorail to reach downtown. Trip time: 1 hour 35 minutes, not including the 10 minute walk plus whatever walking I need to do to reach my final destination. Reverse the commute and it's around 4 hours out and back, each day.

Or I hop in my car and I am there, door to door, in 45 minutes. 1.5 hours total commute each day.

That's how our transit system works...

Which is why it sucks and carries a pathetic percentage of commuters. But again you don't understand how transit works..... It's not your fault if Houston METRO is all you've known. So your logic is Houston transit represents mass transit in general.....?

I'm sure people want to arrive at their destinations by the most efficient and cost-effective means. The point of this thread was that Metro was looking at ways to improve the bus system. That's not going to happen via a rail system for the vast majority of commuters, now or in the foreseeable future. We do, however, have a well-rated park and ride system. We also have a pretty extensive local bus system, but it takes a lot longer to ride to most destinations than most people are willing to accept, thus they get in their cars and go that way instead. Either way, buses benefit from good roads just as much as cars do. I'm not sure how shutting down road construction in favor of rail, which by definition is inflexible, will lead us to a better and more efficient transit system. Especially for the majority of commuters who live outside the loop and thus outside of any current plans for rail connectivity.

And if you happen to live in TMC and commute to downtown, then the rail is great. But most people don't live on or near the rail lines and so they become irrelevant as far as their commutes are concerned.

.... you don't understand how transit systems work? 

On the contrary, the local bus system will probably always account for the majority of ridership and when it's losing ridership something needs to be done.

Well yes..... but as cities grow and evolve they continue to expand their bus systems and add additional modes of transit for capacity purposes.... NYC's Grand Central isn't serving everyone by bus...

I disagree with your premise.  Most US cities that have built transit systems post WWII have done so exactly because it's cool and hip.  The thought is that cities won't attract the "creative class" without rail and the stigma that buses are for poor people.

 

If you want to understand the concerns that some Houstonians have about rail, look at Dallas.  They've spent a huge amount of money putting in an 85 mile light rail system that has a daily ridership of 109,511 as of Oct 2012.  And what has the impact of that system been?  They are doing massive amounts of highway improvement and construction so it doesn't seem to have alleviated that need.  They're needing to provide financial incentives to developers to get them to build next to the rail stations.  It hasn't created urbanization or density in the areas serviced by rail and it hasn't reduced sprawl.

 

If you would like to have a discussion about how Dallas' light rail has been useful and why you feel a comparable system would have different results in Houston, I would be happy to create a thread to have that conversation.

Most US cities? I clearly said the world, expand your horizon yo. 

And Dallas is not Houston. Dallas doesn't have employment centers as big and as dense as our Uptown, Greenway Plaza, TMC, and DT conveniently along our proposed lines all within 5 miles of our DT.... Not to mention it doesn't have as many college and university campus conventiently along a rail.... Or the amount of visual and performing arts.... Or museums.... 

So no, I don't think DART has been successful. As I said originally, mass transit isn't the issue, it's the implementation. 

Quite a few. I'm sure you can look up TxDOT plans elsewhere and see a long list of highway improvements. Some that come to mind are increasing capacity at the 59/610 interchange near the Galleria, expanding 290, building out Grand Parkway, expanding 45 through downtown, building more bridges along Hwy 6 to make it faster to go from 59 to I-10, etc. The list goes on and on.

The point of all that, however, would be to get people to their destinations more efficiently. You may not be aware of this, but most people in the Houston area live OUTSIDE the loop and until we spend billions and decades building rail out to Katy, Sugar Land and The Woodlands the bus system is the best mass transit option for most people in the metro Houston area. And, last time I checked, buses run on the road and highway system.

Wow we get to rebuild the 610/59 interchange after how many years? Wow people live outside of the loop? I'm sure they only want to arrive by car? Oh and building rail out to the suburbs.... come on....stop putting straw into some sort of man..... But wait,.... I must have missed all those new buses that are on our highways... please link all the new P&R routes that have opened up. 

Seriously, how many of y'all own stock in cement companies? 

I have an idea: why not discuss ways of improving Metro's bus service? I think that's the topic.

 

For example, does Metro have an app so that smartphone users can easily access bus schedules (I don't have one, so I really don't know.)

 

A more exciting app would tell the user the way to the closest bus line, and/or the bus arriving soonest. Also, with GPS tracking, buses could be monitored in real time, so one would know if he had time for that refill, or to make tracks to the nearest stop. (And I hope I didn't offend opponents of rail by using the term 'make tracks'.)

I tried to suggest such, but was ignored. It seems that some of our posters would rather complain about trains that are 10-20 years away than buses that are here today. I shudder to think that Vik will be complaining about our trains for the next 20 years.

Because most major cities' (over 5 million in a metro) buses are connected to some higher capacity transit vehicle..... But hey we can continue to discuss how our city's cheapo's, er Libertarians or conservative leaning folks' phobia of spending money can help our METRO's bus system in any significant way. 

Simultaneously... we can discuss how the cheapos have offered no real alternatives to alleviating congestion that involves the private sector or magical flying elephants or whatever....

In conclusion, Houston will keep growing while we continue to debate BRT alignment and become more congested.... 

But please continue..... 

I agree, let's not be naive. Why don't you, Slick, mfastx, and a few others take your own advice? I realize that it is more fun...and far easier...to talk smack on Houston and everything about it. Hey, I've lived here longer than most all of you have been alive. I've heard it all. But, here's the deal. None of your Houston smack talk is new, or intelligent or cool. It is the same old tired cliched smack talk that Houston haters have used for decades. 

Houston smack? Please.... Sometimes you just have to step back and realize your city is hot mess when it comes to METRO and planning for the future in this city. Maybe you don't get outside of the city, state, and national boundaries but there is a whole world out there.....

At some point when you continue to grow by a million people per decade, maybe you'll realize that "being cheap" (cost of living, housing, infrastructure, etc) can turn in turn into negative. 

Now, a cool, hip and intelligent poster would respond with ideas that take into account our reality and the TITLE OF THIS THREAD, and make suggestions on how to improve METRO. But, you guys won't do that. You will continue taking the easy way out, the lazy way, by claiming that rail is the only solution.

kdog made an attempt at originality my saying we needed to quadruple the park&ride system. But, he needs to look at the numbers and scale back a bit. 42% of downtown workers already commute. There are not enough workers left to quadruple ridership. Sure, we can add destinations, like the Med Center, Greenway, Galleria, etc., but this won't produce 4 times the number of current users. But, it is a start. And, it is a whole lot better than Slick Vic's tired trolling.

MOST major cities around the world do have rail in its core, not because it is cool or hip, because it is useful and is part of building a system for growing metro. You people here act like Houston couldn't support rail which is either just LAZY thinking or ignorant thinking. 

Rail is just ONE SOLUTION among many to build a SYSTEM. Do y'all know what a system is? It contains different types of buses working with different types of rail to move people, Houston doesn't need a system the includes heavy rail or subway, but putting light rail in the core is a pretty good next evolution for this blossoming metro of 6.3 million and growing.

And about that core. Hmmm, let's see.... our proposed light rail would have connected Houston's 4 largest AND densest employment centers, it's major educational centers, 4 professional sports stadiums, ballparks, arenas, several major parks, and it's major cultural offerings. Those things listed are the anti-thesis of what good systems would want..... 

And back to the P&R ride, while it may not produce 4X the ridership it could certainly double if down properly. The buses ALL don't have to occupy the grade separated lanes, the ones that don't get in those lanes could have their price reduced as an example. Furthermore, I've always wondered why a "private" solution hasn't become commonplace among the larger and more successful MPCs. For example  Sienna Plantation could run private buses during rush hour to the Med Center (Downtown and Uptown if its feasible). Maybe they do and I'm just unaware. 

So, how about we get back to the thread topic? Hasn't Slick Vic derailed (pun intended) enough transit topics with his tired rhetoric already?

I think based on our realities "rebuilding our bus system" is a good place to start. If we can't get support in the Houston metro for expanding our road and mass transit infrastructure then we should seriously look at more BRT, P&R, and better local bus service. However, realize it is akin to putting a bandaid over a major gash along a major artery. 

Downtown is the hub for most bus routes. So yeah, many of them do need to go Downtown on their way to work.

Well then the ridership should be higher than I initially believe. 

Hahahaha. The new lines are in low income high density areas, in essence, the people that need mass transit the most. Ridership will be very good and with the increasing population and gridlock people will be clamoring for better transit within a decade.

Careful now, the transit will need to take them where they want to go. I doubt too many of them will need to go downtown for work every day.

The talks about roads here cracks me up. I've been in places with far worse. 

 

 

That looks looks like McDuffie near Richmond..... 

The entire basis for the original line was that METRO was eliminating parallel bus lines so that riders would be forced to ride the METRO and gain immediate ridership. Main st buses and those parallel were the most dense in the city of houston. METRO has shortened multiple perpendicular lines to also force customers to ride the rail on their last leg of their destination.

Park and ride is not designed to be a system of transfers but rather one ride to your final destination which encourages ridership.

With the north, east and southeast lines coming online in the future, we are talking a completely different beast. There are not as many instant ridership possiblities as there were with the initial line so the expected ridership won't be comparable. This is why METRO was really pushing for the Richmond line to be build simultaneously. I fully suspect that this will be the final nail in the coffin for the Richmond line.

Of course you eliminate parallel bus lines, redundancy isn't important here. Where METRO and this city dropped the ball was not providing the right amount of perpendicular lines to feed into the rail. That was my point. 

Park and ride can certainly be used to feed into the rail lines, some 25-33% of rail riders got there from P&R. The rail provides the last stop for many suburban commuters. And lastly, the P&R system is currently setup to serve Greenway, Downtown, and the TMC; that is 3 out 4 employment centers alongside the proposed rail lines. 

The lines under the construction will be more for the working class and students, no doubt. You are also correct about the ridership. I would imagine that will be used to justify not building the other lines. All the while another decade will be wasted and we will add another million people in the metro..... 

Lastly, you asked what option I would do for a city this size and I told you. If you want to move the goal posts, by all means.