OkieEric

Not a native Houstonian but I've been here over 10 years and never had a chance to set foot in the place...but I will still vote yes.  It's one of the few identifiable landmarks (perhaps the most identifiable) people outside of this city associate with Houston.  The idea of replacing it with yet another parking lot in that fugly, probably-visible-from-space barren wasteland of parking will just further limit any chance of redevelopment in that part of town.  They're already expanding parking to the former Astroworld site, where does it end?

I'd love an indoor amusement park - like a scaled down Ferrari World - but I'm guessing the economics are just a bust

Really curious to see if we will get any polling numbers on this before the vote.  For instance, would renters be more inclined to vote yes since the impact to them is less direct?  Have there been any similar votes (small $/yr on property tax) votes in the past?

Unless what you meant by your original statements was the 0.4% difference between the two neighborhoods. I think we can agree that they are both awesome neighborhoods and comparably priced

Agreed.  FWIW even though I loved living in Montrose for the same price I'd go for a house in the Heights over a townhome in Montrose any day.  There are really only a handful of neighborhoods I'd consider living in Montrose with a family whereas in general the Heights seems to be more family friendly.  There is just a location factor to Montrose that is hard to beat

I agree with Brian that there are better values on the south side, at least for now.  I guess "value" is kind of the opposite of what we are discussing here, though

Eric, give me a break man. Your link differentiates single family homes from townhomes for Montrose but lumps them all together for the Heights. Unlike your link, I've made a direct apples to apples comparison between the two areas today; I have made sure there are similar sizes of land and similar sizes of home. 

 

It's not a contest. The facts have been presented and you have nothing solid to substantiate your claims while I have provided ample examples to refute them. I even used the links you yourself posted to demonstrate to you.

It's broken out for Montrose because obviously there the ratio of townhouses to single family homes is much higher and thus gives a clearer basis for comparison.  You can lump them together if you want by taking a weighted average and it shows they are essentially the same (albeit Montrose still slightly higher).  But of course nearly half of the Montrose properties are townhouses

There are probably other sources to use for comparison out there, I dunno.  Either way it's a much more objective analysis with a larger sample (all sold houses) and more importantly, it's based on actual sales prices rather than picking a very small subset of house list prices from har

Fair enough, even though I disagree with you that those homes are the "bottom" of the market and I hope you realize the price/sq ft of your examples are maybe a $20/sq ft on avg difference from the ones I cited, I'll drive my point home by using your own examples coupled with some similarly sized (building and lot) homes in the Heights to show you that you are 100% wrong. 

 

$300/sq ft - http://search.har.com/engine/726-E-7th-1/2-St-Houston-77007-1708_HAR19889954.htm

 

$388/sq ft - http://search.har.com/engine/515-Ridge-St-Houston-77009-7517_HAR31762194.htm

 

$418/sq ft - http://search.har.com/engine/601-E-16th-Houston-77008-4401_HAR63199432.htm

OK, enough of this contest.  Yes, maybe they are within range of what you quoted but that doesn't make your examples any less valid.  Your method of comparing home prices between parts of town is flawed - but if doing it that way helps you sleep at night, then so be it.  Those earlier examples were driven by land value, not $/sq ft.  I'm not sure how else this can be explained  

I can nit pick your examples (that last listing is insanely high) and try to find higher $/sq ft offerings in Montrose but what's the point, a $400/sq ft example probably doesn't exist.  My comment was that Montrose pricing is generally higher.  That's not to say you aren't going to find some very high priced homes in certain areas of each.  There are a total of 10 single family homes/multi-family in Montrose under $400K, so in terms of what we are comparing here I would say that yes, the examples you gave are the bottom of the market.  I don't even live there anymore so I don't really don't care either way.  But I'd say this document posted the other day may offer some guidance and is probably a little more conclusive than this random house picking

http://www.greenwoodking.com/images/pdf/marketreport7.pdf

It's not perfect, but I think it substantiates my views.  Or at least proves I'm not 100% wrong

You don't get to make up your own facts.

 

Montrose:

 

$300/sq ft - http://search.har.com/engine/1223-Jackson-Bl-Houston-77006-1101_HAR84444417.htm

 

$296/sq ft - http://search.har.com/engine/1623-Marshall-St-Houston-77006-4121_HAR20477874.htm

 

$273/sq ft - http://search.har.com/engine/1108-Bomar-St-Houston-77006-1224_HAR5282944.htm

Yes, your 3 house sample of the bottom of the market in Montrose completely refutes what I said

1623 Marshall is touted as a tear down (build later!) and 1108 Bomar is 1300 sq ft with no garage.  I'm going to go out on a limb and say it's a goner, too, at least at some point in the near future.  $/sq ft doesn't mean anything on these

There are townhouses going in Montrose in $600K range, I recently sold my 80's remodeled 2 bed/2.5 bath townhouse for not much less than the price ranges you are showing.  Of course, it always depends on the area you are looking at.  Here's some of the pricier new construction (with your favorite $/sq ft metric included):

$323/sq ft - http://search.har.com/engine/dispSearch.cfm?mlnum=98123400&v=s

$322/sq ft - http://search.har.com/engine/dispSearch.cfm?mlnum=20440247&v=s

$300/sq ft - http://search.har.com/engine/dispSearch.cfm?mlnum=70446739&v=s

Those examples prove what I was saying earlier, the Heights is a joke for prices. $400k for a 2/1 shack that needs work with worse schools and a worse location?

I'd still argue Montrose is generally priced higher.  The only thing you will find under $400K in Montrose anymore are teardowns or townhomes and maybe a couple of worn out duplexes

Heights:

 

$300/sq ft - http://search.har.com/engine/702-Omar-Houston-77009-6645_HAR47490461.htm

 

$353/sq ft - http://search.har.com/engine/910-Redan-St-Houston-77009-6040_HAR28988478.htm

 

$369/sq ft - http://search.har.com/engine/1015-Fugate-St-Houston-77009-5013_HAR33583074.htm

 

 

 

West U:

 

$265/sq ft - http://search.har.com/engine/3935-Marlowe-St-West-University-77005-2045_HAR28400842.htm

 

$322/sq ft - http://search.har.com/engine/3921-University-Blvd-Houston-77005-2803_HAR52279754.htm

 

$344/sq ft - http://search.har.com/engine/4015-Villanova-West-University-77005_HAR28457840.htm

 

 

Made sure to choose properties in both West U and Heights Proper. No cherry-picking, I also made sure lot sizes were relatively close.

 

I rest my case.

Price / sq ft is one metric that has some definite flaws to it, plus you are showing us a small sample of asking prices (and note that all 3 West U ones are pending).  One of the houses you listed for the Height was shown as < 1K sq ft.  Seriously?  Do you think if that house was twice as big they would get anywhere close to twice the price?  If someone is paying $500Kish for a house in West U it's a teardown, that's certainly not the case in the Heights.  Lot value alone in West U is probably $500K+ nowdays.  Seriously, go filter on West U and see what is available for < $600K.  Now try $700K, $800K

Edit:  It's not like I'm a real estate expert, but it's pretty logical that when your land value is a high % of value of the house (as is the case in all 6 of your examples except maybe the first) I think $/sq ft is extremely misleading

I agree, I think the market has peaked and will start to level off. The prices are approaching West U, but the Heights doesn't have the school system yet like West U does to deserve pricing on the same level.

I haven't seen anything suggesting the prices are anywhere close to approaching West U.  Actually, I think I've seen several times that housing in Montrose is actually pricier than the Heights, but of course both areas are fairly large so things can vary quite a bit within each

http://www.greenwoodking.com/images/pdf/marketreport7.pdf

 

Not enough detail to tell anything about the demand side, but you can clearly see all throughout GK's market area a major decline in inventory and a major price hike as a result over the past year.  With an average price pushing through the mid 400s, the Heights will naturally see a smaller pool of buyers because there are way more people who can afford to pay under 400k than over.  So, a plateau would be expected at some point.  But if inventory continues to tighten, prices will continue to move up.  The new development in and around 19th street will help take away some sticker shock for people looking at the neighborhood. 

I've also used Judy Thompson's website over the years to track market conditions:

http://westurealestate.com/marketWatchAllAreasSummary.htm

Anyway, in general I've noticed a bit of cooling off as well in checking har listings, but as others have pointed out it certainly makes sense for this time of year

I'm calling it now and only time will tell if I'm right: Heights is West U and Garden Oaks/Oak Forest is Bellaire for Generation X/Y.

I think West U is West U and Bellaire is Bellaire for Generation X/Y.  Keep in mind there are other factors that make West U and Bellaire different than the Heights and other areas - schools are just one aspect.  Both are incorporated cities so the higher and higher property values (and taxes) go towards better services over a relatively smaller area.  Whereas being part of Houston my streets suck and yours probably do, too.  Heck, aren't there still some open ditches up in that part of town?

There will always be another part of Houston to gentrify and move up, but there are limited numbers of these small "enclaves" (or whatever the term is)...so there will always be an advantage there

You have picked houses that are on opposite ends of the spectrum for each neighborhood.  East of Kirby is Roberts Elementary.  Good school, but Poe is where everyone wants to be.  Also, being in the shadow of Rice's football stadium isn't as attractive as being a hop and skip away from 19th st.  So, the Southgate example is on the low end of the spectrum for that neighborhood.  Most everything west of Kirby is 1 mil+.

 

The new construction on 18th is way on the high end of the spectrum in the Heights per sq ft.  It is a fancy custom builder who will put in all the high end stuff.  The house will probably sell for $800k.  2900 sq ft houses from an inferior builder have been getting @730k in the neighborhood.  869k is not going to happen, but 780-800k will.  Lots of great stuff happening on 19th st. adding value to that area. 

That's completely incorrect.  Roberts is superior to Poe - look it up.  Poe is still an OK school, though

My impression is that the rich people zoned to Poe tend to go private

I'd pick the first one for a couple reasons. One, location. The heights is closer all around to restaurants and bars I like to frequent. There are less than a handful of places I like that are south of 59. Yeah, the zoo and Miller and arts are great, but I don't frequent it often enough to justify the location. Restaurants and bars and such, I'd do that any day of the week. I'm not talking douchey bars, but chill bars to wind down from after workThe other reason is the build of the house. I'd forgo the bigger yard for a house with better efficiency and newer technology than one i have to retrofit or fix up. Just my two cents.

Bars and restaurants move, cultural institutions don't.  I'm also going to assume you don't have kids and aren't as interested in the schools

Definitely point taken on the age of construction, though.  The lot to home value ratio is pretty high in these older places.  I like the look of older homes but realize I'm in the minority on that one.  You really can't find a new home (not townhome) under $1 million anywhere near that part of town

I was in Montrose (the best "location" you can get, at least to me) and after having a couple of kids wound up in Old Braeswood.  Southgate was my top choice but we wound up sacrificing a fraction of commute time for a larger lot.  Anyway, the pricing of the Heights versus an area like Southgate just doesn't make sense to me.  Southgate certainly has better schools, I'd argue a better location (faster to Med Center, Rice, Rice Village, museums, midtown, Montrose, Hermann park, zoo, ~comparable to downtown).  I can see the new construction point but why on earth pay $870K for this (glorified townhome?)

http://search.har.com/engine/dispSearch.cfm?mlnum=41218795&v=s

When you could get this for $820K

http://search.har.com/engine/dispSearch.cfm?mlnum=44539834&v=s

Sure, maybe the 2nd place needs some updating but you could do quite a bit with $50K and wind up with an actual house/lot in a great location...  I will admit Southgate in general is priced higher, but I would think it will always be

It's funny, my brother isn't from Houston but all of his friends that have moved here are going to the Heights.  Neither of us can figure out why but we always joke about it (in a positive way.  "Let me guess, the Heights?").  These aren't West U-type earners by any means, but they are certainly professionals with decent earnings.  My best guess is that people view it as some sort of compromise between Montrose and West U?

No that it will be put into the market in a few weeks.

Exactly.  They are putting the land on the market in a few weeks

They said they'd received some off the market offers that lead them to believe it will wind up being a high rise, but it seems we're a ways off from hearing anything concrete on this

Kinda OT, but potentially some more good news for Galveston.  That old orphanage is set to become a new museum

http://www.galvestondailynews.com/business/buzz/article_accf2268-0ae6-11e3-a8a7-001a4bcf6878.html

http://houstonparksboard.org/projects/

I'm assuming that map is accurate, and it shows it all as being park land

When in doubt, if you know the approximate address you can typically check hcad as well

It's a little further west, but I'm curious about 7200 Main St, several acres of land owned by "7200 Main Corporation" since the mid-80's and slowly cleared of structures.  Some quick digging around shows it is linked to Coventry Development Corporation.  I don't know much about them but they are behind Springwoods Village.  This parcel isn't adjacent to Hermann Park but it's definitely a decent location.  Guess it could be years more before anything happens there, but you'd think with Houston's current boom it could be sooner rather than later - looks like the last structures to be demolished were ~2007

A banner is now up, says will be available summer 2014 - 83 luxury apartments, plus some retail space available.  I think it must have been put up in just the last few weeks or I would have noticed it.  No large-scale work going on that I can see, but I'll take this as a positive sign

Also saw some headlines where a Dallas developer had the old Falstaff brewery under contract.  I'd honestly never really driven around there but checked it out today and can't imagine what they would do with it.  Looks like you could convert it into some cool lofts or something but it didn't seem like a good area / location IMO

So I'm a little confused about long term plans for Brays Bayou after the recent vote that will expand greenspace and parks along our bayou systems. I've emailed the city (which just added me to pointless email list), I've found a website for the Buffalo Bayou Master Plan, but I can't find anything that talks about how this vote will impact Brays Bayou. Is there a master plan for it somewhere? I did find a website from the Flood Control District called http://www.projectbrays.org/ but that looks geared towards flood control improvements by 2014 only.

Ditto...sounds like we both live near Brays.  Project Brays and this other deal are unrelated, at least as far as I can tell.  My fear is that since Brays already has trails along our stretch we might not see much improvement, as it seems the focus is on adding and connecting trails.  Not sure what remains on Project Brays, though it sounds like a lot of the work is upstream and focused on flood control 

Here are some websites on the Bayou Greenways 2020

http://houstonparksboard.org/bgi/2020/

http://www.bayougreenways.org/

https://www.h-gac.com/community/qualityplaces/workshops/documents/stw-09-30-2011_The_Potential_for_Houston's_Bayou_Greenways.pdf

The first one lists "Braeswood Homeowners Association" as a stakeholder but I'm not sure that actually means anything

This thread is actually a few years old.  We wound up using a combination of graffiti remover (Krud Kutter, I think), wire brush, and pressure washer and got it all off fairly easily.  One of the neighbors was out there with a gas-powered pressure washer and sure enough it was too powerful and was knocking off pieces of brick and mortar so we wound up using a cheap electric one I have

Of course, a couple of months later it was tagged again and before i could act someone (the city, I assume) came through and just painted it over with a big white square

The empty lot in your 4th pic is only a couple of houses down from our weekend place down there.  Kind of an interesting story behind it - it was an old house (late 1800's) that burned several years ago.  After the fire it was boarded up but the back half of the place was basically open to the elements.  They finally tore it down after a couple of years.  Unfortunately, it's probably going to look like that for a long while.

Edit:  The old orphanage (10th pic) is actually for sale, and has been for a while

http://search.har.com/engine/1315-21st-St-(Moody)-Galveston-TX-77550_HAR88631452.htm

I had my old Acura worked on there a number of times, so it was still functioning as a repair shop (well, just 1 guy basically) at least until maybe 2-3 years ago - it always looked boarded up and abandoned, though.  Not exactly a high volume repair shop so I always wondered how it stayed open

I went through the same dilemma recently and decided to sell

There are so many variables on this I don't think anyone here can answer for you.  Look at your income, then look at your "likely" cashflow from leasing.  First question, is it worth the hassle?

Keep in mind you will be taxed at your ordinary income tax rate, more specifically your marginal (highest) tax rate.  You can certainly take certain steps to help reduce your reported income, but in my own case I didn't want to deal with it, especially if you are dealing with effectively a single rental unit.  Being long distance I'd assume you'd also have to go through a property management company that will take a cut

What kind of rate of return on your equity are you going to get?

In our case (sound similar to yours) our townhome was all newly renovated, all new appliances, etc.  Now imagine what condition everything will be in after renting it out for a few years

For us it was an easy decision, especially given how quickly things are selling...but of course I'm just rationalizing my own decision.  I'd just say make some conservative assumptions and crunch the numbers for an unbiased decision

Yeah...it's not like there's "nothing to do" in Galveston, but almost all the options are family-oriented with very little in the way of night life (and I don't even go out a lot or drink personally). They really need to clean up the water (if possible) and the beach itself, too. It's just plain nasty. I remember as a kid going into the water there and coming out of the water with some kind of film all over me. It doesn't look like it's changed much since. I always hear how the Mississippi River dumps into the Gulf, and then that water is what we get here...which makes sense...but then I hear about how clear and beautiful the water was in Galveston a long time ago.

 

I haven't been to LA since 1989, but what you're saying is probably why downtown LA has never been thought of as a "local destination" outside of work...perhaps until recently. I think there's a good chance downtown Houston will eventually get more options with all the new and upcoming activity, especially in the residential department. That "kind of" helps too. 

If tourism keeps booming down there, hopefully more options will come

http://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/houston-texas/houston/article/Record-holiday-crowds-descend-on-Galveston-4555192.php

As for the water - it is what it is.  Some days it's actually a more pleasant greenish color while others it can be a dark, murky brown - it's usually somewhere in-between.  I've never had a "film", though.  I do wish there was a better solution for the seaweed

Ditto on what the others have said.  Also, this of course depends on your alarm company but this is definitely a DIY job.  I had a system from the 1980's (Moose) at my old house and didn't have a manual so I didn't understand the first error message I got on it - let's just say the service charge on what turned out to be a battery replacement was obscene.  If you don't have the manual for your system I would highly recommend finding it online somewhere