largeTEXAS

3 questions:

1) Why exactly would Houston Pavilions not want to include the residential developments into the project if the market in downtown's in high-demand? I know it'd be expensive, but wouldn't it be worth the investment for the developers?

2) How much will the design change for Pavilions without the residential towers?

3) With the high demand for residential in downtown, and the announcement that residency will not be included in Pavilions, how much will that change the buildings around it? Could we expect that at least one of the buildings across from Pavilions could be converted into an exclusive residential high-rise?

1) High demand still does not mean you can get the $ per sq ft you need to make a profit.

2) This will only help the pedestrian flow along Dallas. Overall, the design stays pretty much the same. With residential Dallas would have had more ramps, this way it will have fewer.

3) Don't know

Midtown is missing that "X-factor" development. Take for instance if the Pavillions were built in midtown, I think that would spur more dense residential growth. Right now its too sparce to fully justify living in mid-town.

There are two large projects that should be that "X-factor." Actually there are four, but two that are farther along in concept and can be discussed. We all know them, Camden's superblock and the project at Main and Alabama. Both are ramping up and should reverse the thinking that Midtown is a failure. I'm glad the article was written, though. It needs to be talked about, especially in terms of things like CVS and motivating some of the backwards owners to hopefully do something with their properties.

Actually, this weekend I spent some time in one of the neighborhoods mentioned in the article - Uptown Dallas. Although the neighborhood has lots of development and there are some definite positives, I wasn't all that impressed. There was very little life on the street and projects like West Village and the many Post and Gables projects just aren't that exciting. Now, to give credit, Dallas does have these developments as well as the growing Victory complex and many new apartments and condos where Houston's Midtown only has a few apartments, town homes, and strip centers to show so far.

I think Main Street in Midtown is going to be a great corridor though. It'll take a few years, but I think the wait will actually result in a nicer product. Uptown Dallas definitely has the advantage right now, but in the years to come Midtown Houston is going to get really cool!

Just got back from Notsuoh, downtown Houston's former venerated hangout back in the early days of gentrification. It took over the former Clark's space and, although it's not exactly the same, looks and feels great. This is one of those little things that I think is going to make a big difference (if it lasts) over the long run. I even think it's open til like 4 am.

with everything currently in place, there is a demand for about 10,000 residential units in downtown. when hp (along with other projects) moves forward, that number will increase.

if you dont think people want to live downtown, im willing to bet that you are a native houstonian.

am i right?

Good observation houston-development! I love how we Houstonians much of the time are our own worst enemy.

To all those who don't believe in Finger's deal or the Pavilions, that's fine. Both are moving forward and both will spur more development in the area. It is disappointing when there are delays, but these things happen with complex mixed use developments (happened with Victory and is happening with every other mixed use project I know if in town). Keep the faith alive. Opening date for Pavilions has not changed, Oct '08. Finger will break ground right after the 1st of the year. Believe it or not downtown is looking mighty fine of late. We might be in store for a lot more than we even know right now...

I'm really excited about the park. I just hope it isn't over-designed. Usually when things are designed to be "world class," they end up being somewhat a farce of themselves. I REALLY hope Heargraves and all the others involved took that into consideration. To me simplicity is key. This park seems a bit much, but it might be just what we need right now.

I don't have a lot of info but it sounds like Dynamo are going to build their stadium just east of MMP. More info later..

Hey, largeTEXAS, any chance the Pavilions can go forward without the residential component?

Well, looks like the project will more likely happen now that they are getting rid of the residential. All indication is that leases are signed and continue to be signed. It is a bummer the residential probably won't happen, but it might actually help the flow of the retail better (not as many service ramps and back doors on the street). The opening date is still set for October 2008, it just looks like the start date is pushed back because the need to build those towers has been eliminated.

Heard some bad news the other day. Looks like the residential isn't going to work. And, the date is being pushed back until around February or March 2007. If there is a silver lining, it does sound like they've secured some other really great tenants including a book store. But, the delay and the lack of residences is a bummer. Still might be a chance, but it looks pretty slim

Good design but isn't it just a Bentley rip off?

EDIT: Before all you homo's freak out - simply quote any medical journal that proves you were born gay and I'll retract my statement.

It is truly disgusting and disgraceful you would use the term "homo's (it

Now I'm not sure who said this, you or marc, but I can easily think of other cities that have way much more going on... Such as Miami, San Diego, San Francisco, Atlanta, Charlotte, Tampa, and I'm skeptical about saying this but Dallas too.

I would put Memorial City & Westchase above the energy corridor. Galveston & Clear Lake seem to have all of the action. TMC is growing, but its not comparable to the "hot spots" of the nation.

I don't think you know or even realize the insane amount of building this city is about to experience. All are still proposed, but if all goes as scheduled, 2007 we will start to see lots of cranes. 2008 don't book anything...there will be A LOT of openings! Houston's really about to explode. And, yes, we will definitely overbuild. but it'll be fun for a couple of years!

Large projects (I can speak of) coming up:

Houston Pavilions

Finger's Tower and the park

Camden Superblock

(lots of cool stuff in Midtown, more later on that)

(lots of cool stuff on Allen Pkwy)

Asia House

MFAH Expansion

Mosaic

Slosburg Medical Village (we'll see)

TMC Transit Village

Rice Village mixed use

Rice University's mixed use project(s)

Gables River Oaks

Westcreek

High Street

Turnberry's Uptown tower

Blvd Place

City Centre

I know I left some out, but almost all these projects are quite big. All in all, it's about to get a little crazy 'round here!

Great pics! And a lake that's fitting for Houston...

Sounds like they postponed the groundbreaking for a day when tornadoes weren't a threat. Hopefully this isn't a bad omen. Maybe they should consider that when naming the thing...

The owner of the Upper Hand is the landlord's wife I believe.

The new toweres are the old towers, just developed by a different company.

LargeTEXAS wasn't talking about the municipal boundaries of LA versus NY or whoever. He was referring to the Los Angeles Urbanized Area, which is the densest UA in the nation.

Thanks The Great Hizzy! You are exactly right. Los Angeles has the densest Urbanized Area in N. America followed by Toronto. Here's the data:

http://www.demographia.com/db-uauscan.htm

Urban Areas over 250,000 in Canada &

United States Ranked by Population Density

This table reflects the corrected data released

by the US Census Bureau 2002.08.25

Rank Nation Urbanized Area Population

Rank Nation Urbanized Area Population Rank Square Miles Population/Square Mile KM2 Population/KM2

1 United States Los Angeles--Long Beach, CA 11,789,487 2 1,667.93 7,068.3 4,319.93 2,729.1

2 Canada Toronto, ON 4,366,508 6 638.83 6,835.2 1,654.56 2,639.1

3 United States San Francisco--Oakland, CA 3,228,605 13 526.66 6,130.4 1,364.03 2,367.0

4 United States San Jose, CA 1,538,312 27 260.11 5,914.1 673.68 2,283.4

5 United States New York--Newark, NY--NJ--CT 17,799,861 1 3,352.60 5,309.3 8,683.20 2,049.9

41 United States Houston, TX 3,822,509 11 1,295.27 2,951.1 3,354.72 1,139.4

42 United States Dallas--Fort Worth--Arlington, TX 4,145,659 7 1,407.04 2,946.4 3,644.22 1,137.6

That said, I love what slfunk said about redefining this region's notion of "urban." I think the model of cities built predominantly in or before the 19th Century doesn't help us much today. Our "urban" has more to do with convenience, preference, and, even, emotion, than necessity. People like their cars and, as much as we try, I don't think we will ever totally eliminate them from our urban fabric. I think a density level that is somewhere in the 4,500 population per sq mile would be ideal as long as we incorporate lots of green space and, yes, parking. Great post slfunk!

Where did you get the info. that people are moving from these areas...I'm not doubting you, but everything I've seen and read is to the contrary. There will always be people who are going to flee the city, that's nothing new. But if sprawl is our future, we're all damned!!!

It is depressing, but here are just a couple of references about the population and job shift:

http://www.topix.net/content/trb/176876614...229890065445734

"Cook County (Chicago) lost more people between 2000 and 2005 than any county in the nation, according to Census Bureau estimates released Thursday that also show continued gains in suburban and exurban counties across the region and portions of the nation."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8411119/

Big cities losing people

Jobs, cheaper housing in suburbs attract newcomers

"The list of former gainers (of population) that have lost population since 2000 include Boston, Chicago, Minneapolis and San Francisco."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Paris

"Well into the middle of the 20th century, the majority of jobs in the metropolitan area were concentrated in the city of Paris proper. However, after the Second World War the economic activity relocated to the suburbs, and the city has been steadily losing jobs to the benefit of the suburbs..."

etc.

Just remember, Los Angeles is the densest North American city...way beyond NY or Chicago! Not many even refer to it as "urban." The trendy urban seems to describe a very nostalgic, 19th century-looking building made of brick. Plus, many if not most of the cities with cool

This is great! Could we merge this with the R0 Theater thread so we have all the links in the same thread?

Thanks!

Here are some images of the proposed development:

Westheimer would be great! I kind of think the best would be to run the rail west along Richmond from Main St through Greenway Plaza, north on or around Weslayan, west on Westheimer through the Galleria area. I'm not sure why Westheimer has been eliminated as a choice.

A lot of the criticism for the proposed train seems to be concerning the actual relief it will cause to the congestion in the areas served.

I wanted to chime in here a little.

Any new train line that is built will absorb the current bus passengers along the route. This is pretty much a given. Certain other people that weren't attracted to riding the bus will also add to readership. Immediately those numbers might be slightly negligible, but they are still important. All this is good and everything, but the real benefits come later.

Since the train is fixed and offers a predictable route for riders far into the future, my opinion is that the greatest benefit is the difference in perception by people in my field (development) towards sites along the route. With the growing national trend in residential, retail, and commercial development to be more urban and dense in nature, companies are now looking for sites with a different set of criteria.

Taking a cue from trendy European development, Gerald Hines

Congrats GREASER on post 69!

...on a post about dating sites nonetheless. (sorry, just had to)

I still need a t-shirt...

P.S. Congrats Gary on your 1,000th post!

Don't think this has been shared yet, but here's Weingarten's official statement about the centers as reported by KHOU:

http://www.khou.com/topstories/stories/kho...ly.746649f.html

Weingarten Realty responds to River Oaks Shopping Center stories

10:11 PM CDT on Wednesday, July 26, 2006

From 11 News Staff Reports

Thank you for your interest in River Oaks Shopping Center. Below is Weingarten Realty Investor

Have you guys checked the signatures on the ipetitions site? There are like 30 new signatures a minute on there. Check it out

http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/riveroa...natures-65.html

Thanks so much sevfiv for the link!