IHB2

see historic houston thread for my answer

nice pics!

2001 on the Windsor wide screen. the light sequence was incredible, straight or "altered"

Felix was on Kirby. That's not too near the theater. Also in the 60s El Patio was across the street from the theater, where El Meson is now, but I don't know if the theater was still open at that time.

"There use to a BBQ restaurant on Omeara about 1 block from south main next to the ghetto carwash now it is a place where they park ambulances"

way back in time - the 50s - there was a Paul's BBQ on the east side of Post Oak real close to South Main. don't know how long it lasted but was the closest place to get bbq pork sandwiches from my family's house on the western the edge of Bellaire (we moved there in 48).

Paul's served bbq beef too, but Houstonians were more southern than western then...

my wife and I were reminiscing about Westbury Square and how utterly unique the mix of shops, food, and residential was for the time. even the east side (front) parking lot created a sense of anticipation b/c it was "sunken" below the level of that side of the square, the bermed sides were covered in ivy or some kind of ground cover, and you had to walk up red brick stairs to get to the Square's "street." the west side parking and entrance was pretty bland in comparison, until you walked through the arched entry and the inner "street" opened up in front of you with shops lining both sides, apartment balconies on one side, gas lights, all framing the big fountain way down at the other end of the street.

in the mid-60s there was no place in Houston where you could find a glass-blower, a candle maker, a tailor, a high-end clothing store, wilderness equipment store, a pre-Pier One importer, a steak house with live folk music every night in the bar, a classic Chinese "you look you break you buy of you own use" import shop, a killer ice cream store, and much more I've forgotten.

and lucky people living above the "street" in the kind of mixed-use nirvana that New Urbanists today dream of creating.

in addition to the the faux "gingerbread" houses, there was a row of new townhomes across the street with Euro rowhouse facades, which just just added to the look.

Westbury Square accomplished what Tilman Fertitta has tried many different ways and failed - from the time you entered the parking lot until you left you were no longer on the flat Gulf Coast prairie in a tract home subdivision.

no need to lock your car, punk teens like me mingling with all other ages and zero problems. the place was magical and insanely romantic at night - hip, urbane, and safe - the unattainable trifecta in modern Houston.

if today you could plop it down exactly like it was in 1966 in the Museum District or up the street in Montrose, or in the Heights, you would make a fortune.

What a great picture. Looks just like I remember it. Ntewest car in the pic is probably the blue Buick on the end - looks like a 61 or maybe the Falcon on the left.

Original Christie's was just south of there and also had drive-in service.

think maybe it did start out on San Jacinto but when I went there it was in an old church on Bagby (I think) for a while but then moved to Richmond Ave around 1966. Seems like it was only a couple of blocks from Sand Mountain, a great coffeehouse. I think it ended up back in the church at the end of the 60s.

I'm not sure when the stadium was built,

"I seem to recall it says when on the entrance sign"

but seems it was like about 1966 or so.. ??

I played bball for BHS at Butler in 65/66 but don't remember if it was there in 64.

with a se wind wafting over Nabisco, there was no way to concentrate sufficiently to hit a decent golf shot anywhere on the back 9 at Hermann Park GC.

here's a couple more random Meyerland Plaza memories:

in its 1st few yrs of existence MP had a July 4 fireworks display from the sw corner of the parking lot (in the yrs before the Cinema was built). not as cool in my memory as the Miller Memorial fireworks but our parents let us ride our bikes to the MP display - freedom!!

before 610 was built there was an annual Easter egg hunt (sponsored by a radio station?) across Post Oak Rd from MP where Hobby Lobby, Outback, Lowes, and the office bldgs and high rise apt now stand. it was a huge field with a few oaks and rose in elevation on the east side (you can still see that elevation behind Beth Yeshuren).

I used to bank there. It was later bought out by Nations Bank which later became Bank of America. I believe the building was torn down in the early 90's.

the bank bldg on the nw corner of the parking lot is still there.

We have many new urbanist projects that attempt a similar thing here in south Florida, but none of them have the feel, the smell, the magic of that amazing collection of independent craftsmen and shops. I cant imagine how such a collection could have come together.

that's the problem w/the current fad of "mixed use" developments - a place like Westbury Square developed organically, at least compared to the current models, which all seem to attract national or regional chains only. I can see living over that Chinese import store or the candle shop a helluva lot easier than living over a Panda Express or Banalbucks. WS had more in common with NYC-style chaotic mixed use development from the 19th-20th c than seems possible with today's cookie-cutter approach.

1965, traded my 65 GTO for the night to a friend with a 62 Rambler that burned a quart of oil every 30 minutes of engine running time. why?

the front seats reclined all the way back and I was taking the smokin' hot chick (I've now been married to for 38 years) to the South Main Drive in.

that's a powerful last paragraph nate.

how can the enacting of this ordinance affect the 1717 developers' plans in any way?

is it not ex post facto where the 1717 project is concerned?

nate that's how I interpret what you said, but would like some clarification from the crack HAIF legal staff (no, not the HAIF staff on crack).

Why is this land so valuable? Location, infrastructure, lack of deed restrictions.

The location is what it is as a result of prior events, leading up to the present day. This is true of all of Houston's neighborhoods. There is nothing special about this one that would exempt it from change.

I explained my point about why I think that neighborhood is worth more per sq ft than other similarly situated neighborhoods (all of which have location, infrastructure, lack of deed restrictions as good as Southampton/B Oaks) in the original statement. I did not say anything about it being exempt from change. I don't have a dog in the fight, just trying to argue a point in favor of folks who, IMO, through their own diligence (relative per capita wealth aside) have maintained and added value to a neighborhood quite apart from the more general rise in property values in the area. it is that equity (you could call it a form of sweat equity) that you mischaracterize in the quote below.

No, that's what the owner prior to this one profited from. The developer paid for this property.

the developer has zero sweat equity in the deal. the value of the mixed use structure they plan to build will be higher than an identical structure located, say, in Riverside (same great location, same beautiful trees, etc). that higher value is one effect of the actions of the property owners in the neighborhood, and it is likely that the property values of the residences adjacent to the high rise will either decline in value or not rise as quickly relative to residences further away.

in that sense the developers have profited from the very thing their development will diminish. this is not always the case with developers, and that is why anti-development zealots are fools. but the same can be said of the "it's their property they can do what they want" crowd. you seem to be a member of the latter group.

Johnny Rebel- The Westbury Mascot

It is very much like the Lee mascot. The football games between Westbury and Lee must have been confusing with both sides waving the same flag.

that mascot looked good in the back of a Birdkeeper's pickup. Go Cards.

BHS class of 66. I probably knew you Alpha.

I was just trying to clarify your statement that "Their land is way too valuable to just have a single family home there." there are many neighborhoods with single family homes. is their land too valuable to have single family homes as well?

it's illogical to argue that the land is too valuable for single family homes when it is the single family homes themselves that contributed to the land's value.

the question is why is the land so valuable? it is not simply b/c of the neighborhood's proximity to the CBD, TMC, museum district, etc b/c other similarly situated neighborhoods are worth far less per sq ft (Riverside Terrace, Upper Montrose, all of Midtown, and the list goes on). I believe it is b/c of the generations of owners who maintained the original integrity of the neighborhood.

and it is exactly that "equity" that the developers are profiting from, and their actions will serve to reduce the equity of some owners in the neighborhood. other owners can't help but be supportive since reduced property values can domino from the outer edges of a neighborhood in over time.

Are you trying to tell me real estate investing has no risk? Wow, talk about entitlement...

It just blows my mind that people willing to go to the mat in every other instance to protect the concept of "Property Rights" have an abrupt change of heart when someone legally exercising their own property rights impacts their neighborhood. You can't make this stuff up.

I don't usually lose my cool, but this whole situation involves levels of hypocrisy I couldn't have imagined. They want a truly hands-off city government, except where they need the nanny state to protect/artificially inflate their investments. They don't want zoning, except for their neighborhoods. Crazy.

"Quality of life" issues, sure, ok. NO ONE could have possibly imagined -- the thought was too far fetched to ever pass -- that a nice neighborhood in the middle of the city, with huge developments all around... would ever attract the attention of high rise developers. It was beyond their ken. I used to think people rich enough to buy into these neighborhoods were business savvy enough to understand risk.

Anyway, I just got back from lunch. We drove down Sunset, and there were dozens of signs posted in the median opposing the Ashby high rise, complete with the big scary cartoon. Like the billboards -- if these people are concerned with the "visual integrity" of a neighborhood, they have a strange way of showing it.

are you really a Hobbesian "property rights" radical or are you just pissed at the power and apparent hypocrisy of a neighborhood of fatcats?

do you support the so-called gentrification of places like the 3rd and 4th Wards at the expense of the cultural fabric of those places, do you support the "townhoming" of places like the Heights and 1st Ward and the destruction of the RO Center for a Barnes & Noble clone?

if these developers wanted to build a manufacturing facility with big trucks running in and out 24/7 on the property would you support that?

real questions, I'm not trying to offend you.

the property was never platted or deed restricted, although everything in the surrounding neighborhood is (height limit of deed restricted buildings is 3 stories). the developers have already paid COH $500K for infrastructure (sewer) capacity improvements. this was done in July and handled by Public Works bureaucrats, completely outside the elected official structure. thus no elected official, including Distict C Clutterbuck, herself a Southampton resident, can tell the builders what to build. they could build a steel mill if they want to.

but civilized societies operate best under just notions of equity. the reason Southampton property has such high value is due in large part to generations of homeowners maintaining the subdivision - both its physical environment and its character. other similar neighborhoods north, south, and east of the area are less valuable b/c they were less successful in warding off various threats to neighborhood integrity over time. there is no doubt a 23 story bldg will drop property values in the surrounding blocks, create long-term environmental impacts currently absent in the area (light, shade, noise, etc), and permanently alter the character of the neighborhood.

so in a sense the developers are profiting from something their proposed development will damage. that's the classic definition of quick-profit, damn-the-long-term-consequences exploitation, Houston-style development.

and that's something most of the posters on HAIF seem to oppose. so why do so many posters on this thread support this?

the original Bellaire area Chuck Wagon was on Bellaire Blvd a couple of blocks west of Chimney Rock. around 1965 that location closed (maybe to make way for Vance & Sons Auto dealership expansion) and opened the larger one at 6817 Bissonnet (currently El Pupusadromo #2).

the post-football/basketball practice order: Wheel with cheese (or a Spoke with chili), onion rings, and a giant tub o'Coke. then head home in time for dinner.

in 1982 I drove into Abilene and saw a Chuck Wagon still in operation. you can guess where I had dinner that night, and lunch the next day.

Correct, that place.

Stia bene!

from a retail perspective the space made more sense in its original form as Planet Music (upstairs had the greatest selection of blues, texana, and world music in any Houston "record" shop ever). it's not so good as a bookstore.

Meyer Bros. dept. store sat on that site in the original Meyerland Plaza.

Thanks man! I have GOT to get the Fever Tree CD...I just assumed that stuff was long out of print...

Fever Tree keyboardist, R Landis, still lives and makes a living playing in Houston...but now it's lounge music.

It was the site of a hotel -- don't remember which chain -- maybe Motel 6 or similar. Don't know what's going up but I'm anxious to find out. Anybody?

high $$ apartments, or maybe it'll be condos, but it's a residential development.