mike1

Let's move all large parking lots underground eventually. It's a smart use of land, even if we end up with less large trees in the park. Plus, we might be able to turn them into hurricane shelters when needed.

Might have to address flooding issues, though. Remember Allison..

The problem I've had with this thing from day one is the amount of money being spent to build a park 3 blocks wide and 3 blocks long that is to become Downtown's "Jewel" park as if forgeting that Elenor Tinsley park even exists. Does anyone have the current price tag available? You're right, it's all private money, but that private money could have been spent on upgrades to Elenor Tinsley park that would make it world-class.

Once again, not dissing the park itself, just the monetary excess being thrown at it that is desperately needed elswhere.

If they do decide to go ahead with this thing, I think the biggest waste would be to develop the park so as to exist isolated in the middle of a vast oasis of surface parking and undeveloped real estate without offering any reason for people to go over and visit. Either they need to develop the park so that it's incorporated into already existing downtown development, or they need to develop it so that it attracts new development into the surrounding areas on its own. At least underground parking would draw pedestrian traffic through the area in the near-term and would serve as a catalyst for long term growth in the surrounding blocks. This is my problem with relying on surface parking alone: in the absence of any existing or future draw for people to that area except on game day, the park is likely to become just another haven for the homeless. In that case, it would be a tremendous waste of money. Either the city goes all-out and develops the park properly so as to be a cornerstone of future downtown development, or else they should just forget about it entirely. If the park proves successful in spurring development, the money spent on it won't be waste; it will be an investment that pays tremendous dividends over the long run.

But my question is, who exactly is this underground parking for? The people who are (aren't?) going to drive downtown from outside downtown to go to Pavilions, GRB, Toyota, and the park itself? Perhaps in 20 years, it will be considered terrific foresight...

People who work downtown. Monthy parking rates can run $200 for good, covered spaces, especially if they are connected directly to Houston Center or the Park Shops via the tunnel system. Not a bad source of revenue for the city.

I have had that mindset for too long. Downtown can learn from the burbs but just with smart growth. Downtown could pretty much learn from the Galleria area just with responsible city planning which Uptown lacks, but they do have the population and visitors that keep that area busy while downtown is a ghost town on a Saturday from morning till about 7 in the evening.

Exactly. Take a look at what those areas have to offer and make it better. Downtown needs to find and exploit niche demands that cannot be met anywhere else. I see so much demand in this town for culture, and for a sense of sense of place and history, that downtown couldn't help but be successful if only it would meet the basic needs of the marketplace.

As you mention, keeping retail open during non-working hours would be a start--a basic rule of marketing is to be available when your customer is available, which means non-working hours and weekends.

I would also add cleaning up the place so that people feel safe and secure being down there. Downtown is one of the safest areas of town, but it is PERCEIVED as being dangerous because it is so dark after hours, because there are so many panhandlers, and because there seems to be so much graffiti and litter in certain areas. Perception IS reality, so make sure the place is open, clean, and adequately lighted so that people have a reason to be there AND feel safe. Downtown development couldn't help but happen under those conditions.

maybe we can build it on the superblock in midtown.

OOPS...didn't HISD already do that!

I agree, I think there are many things Downtown could learn from the burbs considering theres a big portion of Houston's population that live in the burbs. I also think the park is a good idea because any green space that can bring quality to life in an urban setting is a good thing. The garage I also think is a good idea because it took one ugly surface lot and turned it into a park, and took away no parking spots. I just think its neat a park over a parking garage. It dose sound almost like putting a freeway under a park. Could That Happen?

Instead of sticking their collective noses up at people who live outside of Beltway 8, the downtown types would be better off trying to learn what factors drive so many people to live, work, and shop out there in the first place. The market is going to ultimately drive the success or failure of any downtown redevelopment plan, and so it behooves those who promote downtown to learn what works elsewhere and to incorporate those ideas into their plans. You could build the Taj Mahal downtown, but if it doesn't take into account the needs of the people who will be using it, it will ultimately be a failure.

Otherwise, it'll end up feeling like some fake lifestyle center you see in Sugar Land.

Not to be facetious, but would that be so bad? From an economic standpoint at least, the Sugar Land town center is a thriving commerical center with lots of potential for pedestrian traffic flow around it, while downtown struggles to maintain a Foleys and a CVS. Perhaps downtown has something to learn from the 'burbs.

I have seen simultaneous events at Toyo, MMP and GRB on the same day and never had a hard time finding a parking spot.

All the while, somebody is making money on this little deal.

And I still think the approach to this park is flawed. Let it grow (feature wise) and develop organically over time.

Otherwise, it'll end up feeling like some fake lifestyle center you see in Sugar Land.

Who wants a park where everything was dedicated in 2006?

Yes. That's true for now, but if dense development does occur around the park (and that seems to be the consensus of what most people on this site want to have happen), then the parking situation will inevitably tighten up. It's infinitely better (and cheaper) to plan for the development we hope will happen by building the appropriate infrastructure up front. Otherwise, we'll just end up having to go back in 10-20 years later to destroy what will have become a local landmark in order to build in what should have been there in the first place. Furthermore, building the infrastructure up front will itself act as a catalyst to spur development that is currently lacking around the park. Developers are infinitely more likely to build around areas where people have adequate access than in areas that may be more ecologically sensitive but lack basic infrastructure. Isn't a lack of planning and foresight why people are always criticizing the city in the first place?

It's important to remember that we're talking about downtown here, and not virgin national park land. I mean, keeping the surface park connected to the water table may be ideal, but I don't think building subsurface parking is a bad alternative should parking become necessary. It certainly beats the popular Houston alternative of paving the whole thing under and putting up a strip center. Furthermore, subsurface parking, tunnels, and freeways are done all of the time in other major cities. How many subway tunnels would you bet run under Central Park in NYC, for example? My point is that underground parking in this location, or even a freeway tunnel under Herman Park, wouldn't exactly be the end of the world if those things were to become necessary. Besides, how much downtown runoff water would you really want in the water table anyway?

I don't know if replying to my own reply is against the rules, but I had another thought occur to me on this subject. It seems ironic that in posting after posting on this site, everyone complains about the lack of urban-style development and growth in the center city, but when something does happen everyone complains about the type of development that is taking place.. It seems that we can't have it both ways; either we leave lots of open green space and put up with the resulting sprawl or we go dense with urban walking environments by building vertical and digging underground to conserve space.

Houston is getting bigger by the day and it

Well the entire idea of a park is to have green space.

Green space that connects to the Earth. Would it be too much to ask for rain from the park to make its way back into the water table vs. off into a storm drain?

This is like making a park in a planter or container.

Might as well put a freeway under Herman Park.

It's important to remember that we're talking about downtown here, and not virgin national park land. I mean, keeping the surface park connected to the water table may be ideal, but I don't think building subsurface parking is a bad alternative should parking become necessary. It certainly beats the popular Houston alternative of paving the whole thing under and putting up a strip center. Furthermore, subsurface parking, tunnels, and freeways are done all of the time in other major cities. How many subway tunnels would you bet run under Central Park in NYC, for example? My point is that underground parking in this location, or even a freeway tunnel under Herman Park, wouldn't exactly be the end of the world if those things were to become necessary. Besides, how much downtown runoff water would you really want in the water table anyway?

Yeah...it was actually in a historically significant part of town when it was built,

I know this subject is way off topic, but history is my passion! Here's a picture taken from almost the exact same location in 1921 when the Erie Canal ran where the street is today. You can see the building in the background with the pointed roof (which I believe is city hall) in both the old and new pictures. In the new photo, it's directly behind the Times Square Building.

Rochester could have been the San Antonio of the North...what a shame!!! Lesson for Houston: HISTORIC PRESERVARION IS EXTREMELY IMPORTANT!!!

interesting... but the buildings around it are plain janes

Yeah...it was actually in a historically significant part of town when it was built, but most of the buildings around it were destroyed in the 1950's to make way for an inner loop expressway and a Communistic looking War Memiorial and Civic Center complex. In the 1930's through the 1950's the building actually had a subway station in the basement, until the subway itself was shut down in order to build the expressway. (With a 1950's population of around 300,000, Rochester was--I believe--at the time the smallest city in the country with a working subway line. The subway itself actually ran in the bed of the old Erie Canal, which ran through the center of the city until around the 1920's and is now the current route of I-490). Houston isn't the only city with a bad habit of destroying its own history and neglecting mass transit!

Gotta love buildings with wacky tops:

I know this was posted over a year ago, but I've just joined the forum. As a native Rochesterian, I can definitely tell you that's NOT city hall! That Art Deco gem is the Times Square building! (Not to be confused Times Square in Manhattan.)

These postcards might be collector's items. Who knows? Someone out there might be willing to buy them off of E-Bay.

I was browsing through your forum and thought you might be interested in the following link:

http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/collections/panoramic_photo/

It takes you to the Library of Congress archives. Type "Houston" in the box in the upper left hand corner of the page, and the site will bring up a series of panoramic skyline photos from the turn of the century.

As for postcard views, I know of at least one site that trades in such things (www.cardcow.com). Try this link for historic Houston postcards:

http://www.cardcow.com/home.php?cat=65109

You can even read the notes on the backs of the cards and download favorite scenes as wallpaper.

Great stuff!!