Croberts

I joined in the summer of 06, looking for pictures and information about houston skyscrapers. I was shocked to see a thread about the neighborhood where I grew up. It is my favorite thread on HAIF.

It's Bray's Bayou, N & S Braeswood Blvds., Braeswood Place, Braes Blvd. Water gets a y and stone gets an e. However, I'm not sure why.

You mean water and concrete.

Subdivisions often get romantic names, and automobile oriented street names are strongly influenced by subdivision names. It makes sense that when the subdivision precedes or is built at the same time as the street that they would influence the street names. My guess is that some subdivider was mystified by the bray spelling, and it reminded him of the scottish brae.

I have been trying to remember the names of las conseulas and tin tin cafe for years. I remember the family hand and I worked at hobbit hole, but I also remembe the family child, and there was a kundalini (sic) restaraunt behind "a movable feast" which was on westheimer, that had the most excellent enchiladas and salads.

El Rancho on Canal?

Was it La Merida? It was on canal, but I dont remember where but the most remarkable thing about them was their refried black beans.

I graduated from Westbury in 69 also. I remember the hair fiasco.

It was a great place to go to school in the 60's. Felt sorry for some of my buddies that got zoned to Madison.

I remember it too, more than one persons high school experience was wrecked by it. I remember a similar situation at A.S. Johnston, where they were lined up and anyone with long hair, or the wrong clothes got kicked out. One girl was told she was a slut by the assistant principle for wearing a peasant blouse.

I tell my 18 year old daughter the list of proscribed clothing, fashion and hair situations, and she looks at me like I am from mars.

Your theory is correct. In the 1830s and 1840s, there was a deeply rutted wagon road between Harrisburg and San Felipe, and nearby Columbus. I read about it in a personal history written by a German immigrant in 1849. He traveled that route in the early 1840s, and he described his journey from Harrisburg to Columbus as four days of pure hell.

Can you tell me where you read this personal history? Is it a published source or an archival document?

I have no idea when or why it was changed, but at one time the street we now call West Dallas was named San Felipe. It ran from the west side all the way into downtown.

I know it was San Felipe as recently as World Wars One and even WWII, because newspaper accounts of the Camp Logan race riot in 1918 said the rioting soldiers advanced toward downtown Houston on San Felipe Road.

Also, the City of Houston built that big public housing project just west of downtown early in WWII, and named it San Felipe Courts, for the street that ran along the south side of the project.

Does anyone have an old map that shows the original route San Felipe took going west out of downtown?

I have a theory that San Felipe was the original road from harrisburg and later houston to San Felipe, capital of austins colony. Washington, north of Buffalo bayou went to Washington on the Brazos. If so these would have been the first roads coming into houston from the west. The only competitor would be old richmond road, which might have been of the same era.

I remember the Jack-in-the-Box at Bellfort and Chimney Rock. Remember Jack Cola? It was their cheap verson of Coke. For spite and to send a message we would drive up and order Coke and they would reply, "We serve Jack Cola." So we would say never mind and speed off.

That jack in the box I remember (perhaps incorrectly) as the first fast food chain, followed by the burger king on post oak. In the landscape history of commercial architecture, Jack in the box was perhaps the first drive through chain where you talk to a speaker (jack) and this was one of the first ones.

Contrast with the early burger king on post oak- it was walkin only. Thus westbury was percieved as a hot market by two up and coming chains in the early 1960s.

I remember doing the same kind of thing- go to jack and the box and start an arguement with jack.....

[iE: Mr. Melanson.. I'll never forget

that guy.. Was real hairy... :/ With a little more, he could

have been in the Planet of the Apes movies..

I had him for mechanical drawing. I remember him for his influence and his strong cajun accent. I later took mechanical drawing in college, and even later took computer assisted cartography, remote sensing, GIS, and now I teach Geographic Information Science at the undergraduate and graduate level, a five course Remote Sensing GISystems, Geovisualization sequence. I was the one that finally chased the drafting boards and pens out of the department, replacing them with computers.

While on 18th street traveling west crossing North Durham... you can see a concrete street post that shows NASHUA STREET. i recall looking at an old map and it showed North Durham was Nashua past 17th street.

i'll try to post a picture soon on the concrete post.

Durham drive was named for Dr. Charles Edward Durham (Sr.), who i think founded Durham clinic in the heights. He was active until the 1950s, I was told that I was the last child that he delivered (I am named after him) in Heights hospital in 1953. Likely the drive was renamed some time during or after his active period, which it seems ended in the 1950s.

Sorry guys, it DID happen and it was during the day as part of gym. We played dodge ball when it was raining and basketball otherwise. I'd like to hear from the students who went there and know the truth. I can't verify the same happened for the girls.

Nude swimming for boys was in effect when I went to Albert Sydney Johnston Jr High around 65-66. It was very awkward, I didnt like it. The rumor was that girls did not swim nude, but I dont know the fact. Boys definately did.

Anybody remember the Bookstore? The Soda Fountain across from it? The sword fighting around the fountain in the middle of the square??? Gee what a great time to be young, cute and dating......

When I was in high school (68-71) some of us considered the bookstore to be the best place to work, period, primarily due to the general feeling of being on the square.

Well, the bummer part is we still have no original photo of the indians and one indian is still missing.

A bigger bummer is that we will never taste that chicken again- the best I ever had. I do remember the indians looked like the summerville one- they were 3d figures and the one on the right as you faced them was kneeling, and the other was kneeling or sitting.

Thanks for all who have contributed so far! I have a few questions; was Alief-Clodine called Alief Rd. at any time or has it always been named Alief-Clodine. I'm wondering because a number of early 90's maps showed Alief-Clodine as either Alief Rd. or showed Alief Rd. as a phantom road that paralled it from Westpark to Highway 6. This road was also sometimes referred to as Alief-Houston Road. Also, when did the segment of Dairy-Ashford that borders Elsik change it's name from Alief-Cemetary Road to it's present moniker?

Road names vary from location to location along the road. I did some research on historical route geographies in Burnet county, texas, and discovered that a single route might have multiple names. The Burnet-Florence road was called that in burnet, but in Florence, it was the Florence-Burnet road. Since it continued east, it was also called the burnet belton road. etc.

I used to drive to Alief from Westbury to visit a friend, and I remember driving a long straight road parallel to a railroad track, and at one point you had to cross the track and then it ran parallel again. Sometimes we would race trains to get to that s crossing. This would have been in the late 60s. I cant remember the name of the road, but it was the main road to alief from sw houston at the time.

I also remember as a kid, in the 50s we would go on long road trips west of houston, and that in the alief-katy prarie area, we would pass the time by counting the cotton gins- there was always one on the horizon. By the time I got old enough to drive myself, they were gone. I remember santa gertrudis cattle, with cattle egrets, and fire ant mounds everywhere.

In the 1980s, the alief sheet of the 7.5 minute USGS topographic series was considered by geoscientists nationwide to be the map that should the most phenomenal rate of development. The maps are updated by aerial photos, and if a site is being developed but not finished, it is shown in purple. The alief map from the 80s was about 80% purple, and no other topographic map has ever come close to that large of an area being developed simultaneously.

It used to be a big parking lot, all the way from the bull @ anchor, to the parking lot that dominoes is on,

all the way back to about halfway between chimney rock, and W. bellfort. There used to be a hill of dirt

adjoining chimney rock, and many used to ride bikes there. At the south side of the parking lot, "at the

back, if you came in on W.Bellfort, there used to be brick stairs that led to an elevated sidewalk. I think

originally the sidewalk may have actually connected to the square near rumpleheimers, but in the later

years, it was closed off. So they would leave their cars, and instead go up one of the stairways that

you see. There were at least two sets.. One at bull @ anchor, and I think there was another one down

by where the candle shop used to be.

I heard in the mid sixties that the original plan was to build a lake where the depressed parking lot was. I used to ride on the dirt hill and in the trenches. The elevated sidewalk did connect to the square until at least the early 1970s.

Does anybody around here remember Las Casuelas? The greatest Mexican food restaurant in Houston history? In a big old house at the corner of Fulton and Quitman out in the barrio on the near north side? I think it was even better than the original Ninfa's on Navigation.

I have been trying to think of the name and location of this one for years. Seemed to be the center of Mexican culture in houston, especially late at night.

Another one I cant remember the name of was a place on Canal that served the best black bean refritos with huevos rancheros.

I would have to say while all of us on the board, minus a very small minority, wish the square was now as it was once, we have to be realistic. These times in which we live are nothing like the times were back in the 60s. I was born in 78 so I do not speak from firsthand experience but even in my lifetime I have seen our culture and population move towards egomania, anti-social, and flat out rude behavior. These days people want to drive to a big box store in an urban assualt vehicle that screams "I have more money than you do", buy communist made chinese goods on the cheap, and not give a rat's tail about much more. (quote from LarryDallas)

These days if you want that kind of walkable marketplace in the neighborhood you have to shell out megabucks and live in a town where not just a subdivision is masterplanned but the whole city is a planned community.(quote from LarryDallas)

New Urbanist communities like celebration are rapidly becoming the way to get development project through the planning and zoning as well as public hearing phase. We have multiple examples in Florida, City Place, Mizner Plaza are two westbury squarelike developments in Palm Beach county alone, and just yesterday we had the experience of a developer tooting a megasuburb disguised as a mixed use neighborhood and pedestrian oriented development where everyone would live where they work.

One thing that is missing from all of them is the unique quality of the square. I will never grasp how it was possible to get so many one of a kind shops run by the craftsmen themselves to congregate there. The Candle Shop, The scent shop (wrong name) cargo houston, electric paisley, etc. How can so many creative and independent merchants and craftsmen be attracted to a single development? Our New Urbanist plazas are full of corporate chains. Starbucks, Pottery Barn, Anthropologie, high end corporate retail to be sure, but really no examples of a one of a kind craftsmen or merchant.

10speedgal73: You quoted me but you didnt say why?

I have now heard 5 versions of what happened to the square.

1. Neighborhood went down the tubes when they started building apts, such as those next to the high school. nobody wanted to go to westbury anymore

2. Hippies loitering in the square caused the decline

3.Too far away from a freeway

4. Competition with Galleria and other malls

5. Abscentee landlords, dont care about neighborhood

lets look at these one by one

1. Crime and low income residents-affects image, may decrease the numbers who will drive to Westbury a bit as well as contribute to property value declines, and an influx of poorer, not likely to shop at the square residents. Did this happen? When my parents sold their house in 1977 it had not happened yet, but the decline at the square was already evident, but slight. Business owners complaining about square mangement is what I remember

2. Hippies loitering? That was part of the ambience of the square. ZZ top premiered there. Electric Paisly was on the evening news for being the first head shop in houston. Mr Fantasy, Cargo Houston. I think they were part of the square at its heyday, rather than the decline.

3. Too far from major transportation artery? Perhaps, but when the square opened it was successful and there was no 610 loop yet, no s post oak ramp, etc. and the city was a fraction of the size that it is today. However if other shopping centers were successful and near a freeway....

4. Competition from Galleria- I believe this is part of it, because it was already happing in 1970. If you wanted large numbers of people and chain stores, go to galleria. If you wanted to see neighborhood people and specialty shops, go to the square.

5. Abscentee slumlords- and weak neighborhood ordinances (covenents)?I think this is the biggest part of it. The land owners of the most important neighborhood centers did not care, do not care. land is an investment, not for the rent but for the speculative value in future real estate markets. But the neighborhood centers are a critical part of the perception: the square if it was in its heyday today would be a model for other new urbanist designs-

WHAT CAN BE DONE?

I would suggest several things. First, historic status. The 60s were 50 years ago, nearly. Historic preservation status with the state and with the national register, would help. A press campaign against blighted neighborhoods and slumlords would help. Where is Marvin Zindlers exposee of the decline of westbury square?

Westbury has the reminent buildings of the square, the earliest manifestation of new urbanism. Successful until management began driving creative retail out.

The square created a main street in an auto oriented suburb

Houstons contribution to modern architecture should be noted. There has been some discussion on this site about it, but I dont see anything happening in west bury. The centerette sign is a gem from the past. So it the square. Are there more buildings worth noting?

As energy costs escalate houston will boom (only booming housing market in the nation right now) and Westbury should be ripe for a revival if the conditions are ripe. Having shopping centers that send the opposite message does not do this.

I really appreciate the pictures, I have not been in the neighborhood since 1977, really. the last time I was on the "square" was probably about 1975.

Why it started down is a mystery to me, it has all the elements of "new urbansim" (see my comments in the wikopedia discussion of the square). Hippies loitered in the square from about 1967 on, so thats not the reason. But when cargo houston went down, that seemed to be the beggining of the end. The specialty shops lasted till sometime in the 1970s. I heard that some company bought the square a few years after the townhouses were added. They supposedly put in a theater, or were going to put on in. I believe the story was that the company was owned by the chinese import store, which used to face the central fountain, now apparently the home depot lumber place. It seemed retail sails began lagging in the mid 70s, and possibly it was competition with the newly created Galleria?

One problem I think was that there was not enough to do. ie needed more restaraunts with a variety of prices, and more entertainment venues. It seemed the main reason to go to the square was atmosphere and to purchase specialty retail items. I used to make sand candles with scents from the scent shop, and wax supplies from the candle shop. I bought classic San Francisco rock concert posters at Cargo within weeks of famous concerts. A;sp bought blacklight posters at the Electric Paisley, and I became a black light artist myself, painting a number of bedroom murals for friends in Westbury.Also Indian prints beadspreads, paper mache tiffany lamps. What was missing was a book store and a large record shop.

The westbury centerrette (sic) sign may be the oldest surviving thing in westbury. I am sure it is the original and I expect the center predates the square and certainly the weingartens plaza. The trampoline place was the last building on the side facing away from belfort but near chimney rock.

sadly the conoco that was replaced by the now abandoned exxon was a classic modern style station, with a tile mural on front, a streamlined carport, it was one of the best pieces of architecture around, and deserved preservation status.

Brazosport/Quintana Folklore

BZZPORT on the Llano

On slab road near kingsland, Mr. Bee built what looked like it was meant to be a small outdoor concession stand and picknic tables on the banks of the llano river. The sign said "BZZPORT" and the rumor was that he moved here from Brazosport. He was eccentric and died over 10 years ago. Last time I drove down slab road the BZZPORT sign still hung over the gate of the property.

Missing bar patrons found in canal

In the 1970s I heard a piece of folklore about the Freeport/brazosport area. There was a road to quintana beach that made a sharp turn before a canal. There was a bar up the road. Many people dissapeared from the bar never to be seen again. A fisherman snagged the roof of a car in the canal and it was discovered that the many missing people were in cars that sank in the canal when they could not make the turn on the way home from the bar.

Could it also be possible that back then, beauty was considered more often when building something?

That was certainly true when it comes to urban design- it was the city beautiful movement was growing, and it was the beggining of urban planning (River oaks was houstons city beautiful inspired neighborhood). However the rise of the automobile and the ensuing urban auto congestion forced cities to move from a planning and design approach to an engineering to make cars happy approach- which is self feeding, since building better auto roads always stimulates more use of the auto.

If you look in the westbury square discussion, there is an aerial photo of your street in the early 1960s, posted by 57Tbird. That photo appears in various forums, it shows up again in Sam Houston Airpark discussion.

seems like a perfect topic for this forum, and if there is a sacred architecture in houston, it is modern.

Do you know when this house was built or by whom?

I lived in Westbury from 58-77, had a brother in law who lived on effingham, and I was once infatuated with a girl on green somthing next to the rr track. I think this was one of the last parts of westbury east of hillcroft to be filled in.

I believe the original street paving material was wood plank. This was better than mud, but not very practical because the planks would come loose or people would steal them. which left gaps in which wagon wheels or horses hooves could get caught and break. In the newspaper during W.R. Baker's mayorship I saw request for bids in the paper for streetpaving. The request for bids stipulated the materials which were acceptable for use in the bid. The paving could either be done with brick, asphalt, or wood. If the bidder chose to use wood it stipulated the size of the blocks and mentioned that it must be heart pine or heart cypress. Somewhere you might be able to find who was granted the bids for which streets. It may have even been posted in a later paper, but I doubt you can find which individuals did the actual work.

There are quite a few brick sidewalks in the Old Sixth Ward. This has led many to conjecture that the city used to build brick sidewalks, but in the 1890s it was mentioned in the paper that indivudual homeowners were responsible for building the brick sidewalks in the Sixth Ward and the editor was encouraging others in the neighborhood to do the same.

Very good- I forgot to mention wood plank roads were more common in the south. They were called corderoy roads because of the bumps. What year was the request for bids or the baker mayorship?