editor Posted December 10, 2008 Share Posted December 10, 2008 TXDOT has a big fat list of things it wants to do if it gets $6,200,000,000.00 from the stimulus package Obama is talking about. But instead of it going to new infrastructure as the president-in-waiting wants, the Chron reports that TXDOT wants to use it for routine maintenance.Sounds like a bad idea to me. Use gift money to expand your infrastructure. Use your regular funds for maintenance. If Texas' highways are so poorly maintained that the state has a $6.2 billion maintenance budget shortfall, then it sounds like TXDOT needs an audit and a new leader. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H-Town Man Posted December 10, 2008 Share Posted December 10, 2008 TXDOT has a big fat list of things it wants to do if it gets $6,200,000,000.00 from the stimulus package Obama is talking about. But instead of it going to new infrastructure as the president-in-waiting wants, the Chron reports that TXDOT wants to use it for routine maintenance.Sounds like a bad idea to me. Use gift money to expand your infrastructure. Use your regular funds for maintenance. If Texas' highways are so poorly maintained that the state has a $6.2 billion maintenance budget shortfall, then it sounds like TXDOT needs an audit and a new leader.Good point, but I think this is true of most mature freeway systems. A few years ago I was reading that California only has funds in the next 25 years to maintain its current freeways, not add any.May also have something to do with the fact that with federal money you have a lot of constraints like environmental impact planning, etc., that can slow new projects down, whereas with state dollars you have fewer constraints. So put the federal money into projects that don't have those constraints... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
editor Posted December 10, 2008 Author Share Posted December 10, 2008 Good point, but I think this is true of most mature freeway systems. A few years ago I was reading that California only has funds in the next 25 years to maintain its current freeways, not add any.I've read the same thing -- most states are waaaay behind of their infrastructure maintenance. But that doesn't make it right. TXDOT should be held accountable. Or the legislature. Or ultimately the governor.May also have something to do with the fact that with federal money you have a lot of constraints like environmental impact planning, etc., that can slow new projects down, whereas with state dollars you have fewer constraints. So put the federal money into projects that don't have those constraints...I'd do it the opposite way -- use the federal money into the harder to accomplish projects that would be more expensive if Texas was using its own money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
musicman Posted December 10, 2008 Share Posted December 10, 2008 this is just an example of the bailout mentality spreading. proposals like this will be popping up in every state. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheNiche Posted December 10, 2008 Share Posted December 10, 2008 TXDOT has a big fat list of things it wants to do if it gets $6,200,000,000.00 from the stimulus package Obama is talking about. But instead of it going to new infrastructure as the president-in-waiting wants, the Chron reports that TXDOT wants to use it for routine maintenance.Sounds like a bad idea to me. Use gift money to expand your infrastructure. Use your regular funds for maintenance. If Texas' highways are so poorly maintained that the state has a $6.2 billion maintenance budget shortfall, then it sounds like TXDOT needs an audit and a new leader.If the intention of this stimulus bill is primarily to create jobs during the trough of an economic recession, then the projects being undertaken need to be able to be done quickly if the funds are to be used in the spirit by way of which they were appropriated. For instance, a massive freeway construction project that lasts for several years probably would not even be engineered by the time that the recession was over. By taking on numerous smaller projects, the expenditure is more likely to achieve strategic goals.If there is a silver lining to this as you might perceive it (but one that undermines the spirit of the appropriation) it would be that State and local transportation agencies will likely use these funds for maintenance in order to defer scheduled outlays of their own, allowing those agencies to become more financially secure and more able to undertake large-scale long-term projects. Unfortunately, bailout policies usually have unintended consequences as baggage; this one will be no different. Policy does not occur in a vacuum.I agree with you that there is a need for increased infrastructure spending but that needs to be a different appropriation. Also, I don't think that the federal government necessarily needs to be involved in most of that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rsb320 Posted December 10, 2008 Share Posted December 10, 2008 (edited) Can these funds be used for commuter rail? I think this would be a really good investment of these funds. Edited December 10, 2008 by rsb320 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheNiche Posted December 10, 2008 Share Posted December 10, 2008 Can these funds be used for commuter rail. I think this would be a really good investment of these funds.Nobody really knows what will or will not be allowed yet. It's still an informal discussion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TJones Posted December 10, 2008 Share Posted December 10, 2008 I should be a shoe-in for the measley $550k I want to start a business here in Austin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexasVines Posted December 10, 2008 Share Posted December 10, 2008 (edited) just as TheNiche stated these funds are available for projects that can be up and running quickly not for projects that need to be designed and engineered and then enviroed to death it is a well intentioned idea with poor execution, lack of thought, and lack of creativity behind it and Texas has some of the best roads in the USA no matter what one feels about TxDOT.....all one needs to do is drive anywhere across a Texas border to know this first hand.....Texas has just gone through a major round of highway construction recently so there are not as many large projects on the books right now....also with the extremely stupid mess up of double accounting of over a billion dollars by TxDOT there are probably some major projects that have been shelved that can't be brought back in time of this money grab this is really poor planning and short term government thinking at its finest by the office of the president elect since design and engineering is the high paying part of construction VS illegals actually pouring concrete it would be much smarter to get some of these projects fast tracked into design and engineering by clearing out stupid government bureaucracy and enviro whackoism and spend the money on the higher paying parts of the job first and then trickle it out longer term for the actual construction I happen to like cars and auto transport, but this will do nothing to end any of that by a bunch of talking heads and chirping crickets that blab nonstop about cutting back on auto transport and doing more large scale public transportation projects....because as it is now it is mostly road and freeway projects that are available for these programs......but anyone with an ounce of reasoning ability would have seen this coming a mile away from the office of knee jerking and puppeteering elect....just a really bad start and really short term vision out of the gate....hope he makes the right decision on his kids dog though there are 4-5 projects that could make a HUGE impact on the long term for Texas, but they will never get done under this half baked plan....most of these projects have been talked about for years, but the money has not been there....it is there now potentially, but the time to even do them half right won't be there.....too bad so sad Edited December 10, 2008 by TexasVines Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BryanS Posted December 10, 2008 Share Posted December 10, 2008 (edited) If your state's electoral votes did not go to Obama... well... no money for you. That should be a first ground rule. Edited December 10, 2008 by BryanS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedScare Posted December 11, 2008 Share Posted December 11, 2008 just as TheNiche stated these funds are available for projects that can be up and running quickly not for projects that need to be designed and engineered and then enviroed to deathit is a well intentioned idea with poor execution, lack of thought, and lack of creativity behind it and Texas has some of the best roads in the USA no matter what one feels about TxDOT.....all one needs to do is drive anywhere across a Texas border to know this first hand.....Texas has just gone through a major round of highway construction recently so there are not as many large projects on the books right now....also with the extremely stupid mess up of double accounting of over a billion dollars by TxDOT there are probably some major projects that have been shelved that can't be brought back in time of this money grab this is really poor planning and short term government thinking at its finest by the office of the president elect since design and engineering is the high paying part of construction VS illegals actually pouring concrete it would be much smarter to get some of these projects fast tracked into design and engineering by clearing out stupid government bureaucracy and enviro whackoism and spend the money on the higher paying parts of the job first and then trickle it out longer term for the actual construction I happen to like cars and auto transport, but this will do nothing to end any of that by a bunch of talking heads and chirping crickets that blab nonstop about cutting back on auto transport and doing more large scale public transportation projects....because as it is now it is mostly road and freeway projects that are available for these programs......but anyone with an ounce of reasoning ability would have seen this coming a mile away from the office of knee jerking and puppeteering elect....just a really bad start and really short term vision out of the gate....hope he makes the right decision on his kids dog though there are 4-5 projects that could make a HUGE impact on the long term for Texas, but they will never get done under this half baked plan....most of these projects have been talked about for years, but the money has not been there....it is there now potentially, but the time to even do them half right won't be there.....too bad so sad A politically motivated response to an economic problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheNiche Posted December 11, 2008 Share Posted December 11, 2008 A politically motivated response to an economic problem.You're being kind. I have a better descriptor for TV's so-called analysis, but I can't say it without pissing off the mods. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexasVines Posted December 11, 2008 Share Posted December 11, 2008 (edited) A politically motivated response to an economic problem.more like a truthful response to a politically motivated, poorly planned,knee jerk, government response....I thought it was all about change.....now it is about lets just build tons of bridges to nowhere because we don't have the ability to look at anything long term or come up with a decent plan....it is just time to toss money wildly into the wind with little or no thought to long term planning because the masses have been fooled with hype and (hope and change) when the reality is the office of the president elect has crawdaded on every promise he has made so far (including a dog for his daughters) and now has no real idea what to do to keep all the BS he promisedand does it really take you "two" over 11 minutes to go to a different computer and make a response? I guess just because President-Elect Barack Obama is the one now tossing money for bridges to nowhere and gas is down in the short term everything is OK for people like you two one....no need for long term planning or for critically looking at the money spent....it is just time to open the taps for any project that is under the sun with no regard for their usefulness or long term consequencestake this plan and change it from "office of the president elect" to "Office of President George Bush" and see if it still looks so great to you one Edited December 11, 2008 by editor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedScare Posted December 11, 2008 Share Posted December 11, 2008 more like a truthful response to a politically motivated, poorly planned,knee jerk, government response....I thought it was all about change.....now it is about lets just build tons of bridges to nowhere because we don't have the ability to look at anything long term or come up with a decent plan....it is just time to toss money wildly into the wind with little or no thought to long term planning because the masses have been fooled with hype and (hope and change) when the reality is the office of the president elect has crawdaded on every promise he has made so far (including a dog for his daughters) and now has no real idea what to do to keep all the BS he promisedand does it really take you "two" over 11 minutes to go to a different computer and make a response? I guess just because obongo is the one now tossing money for bridges to nowhere and gas is down in the short term everything is OK for people like you two one....no need for long term planning or for critically looking at the money spent....it is just time to open the taps for any project that is under the sun with no regard for their usefulness or long term consequencestake this plan and change it from "office of the president elect" to "Office of President George Bush" and see if it still looks so great to you oneHmm...your response to my political accusation is to resort to political name calling. I would go into a discussion of the economic theory behind this plan, but clearly I'd be wasting my time. Everything must have a political or racial component to be valid to you.And, your belief that Niche and I are the same person is beyond comical. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexasVines Posted December 11, 2008 Share Posted December 11, 2008 Hmm...your response to my political accusation is to resort to political name calling. I would go into a discussion of the economic theory behind this plan, but clearly I'd be wasting my time. Everything must have a political or racial component to be valid to you.And, your belief that Niche and I are the same person is beyond comical.who needs your opinion when we can get the opinion of Omans own budget adviser http://www.usnews.com/blogs/capital-commer...mpractical.htmlor others that are Demshttp://thehill.com/dick-morris/obamas-stim...2008-12-09.htmlothers think it is just wasted spending because it does things likes covers maintenance Vs something new with a long term future Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TJones Posted December 11, 2008 Share Posted December 11, 2008 and does it really take you "two" over 11 minutes to go to a different computer and make a response?I can assure you TV, Niche and Red are NOT the same person. If you don't believe me, there are about 10 or so other HAIFers that will confirm it, and I am sure Ed would be happy to verify the different IP addresses for you. TV, Niche is about 5'10", looks like a young Bill Gates, don't know if he is an illegitimate offspring, but the resemblance is uncanny, big 80's glasses, and just a touch of geekiness, that we all love. He can talk about money til the cows come home, but nobody is really sure if he himself actually has any. Red is about 5'10", on the brink of midlife crisis, greying, well, he is actually greyed out. I was trying to be nice, dark complextion, he tries to play it as his "Lebanese heritage". Try to imagine George Harrison, without getting all the chicks, and not being a movie star, but definately washup before he was in his prime with a San Tropez tan. Me myself, well. I am 6'3" about 345lbs. and built like an Adonis, if Adonis looked like the Kip's Big Boy, but an Adonis nonetheless, just ask the wife. A sparkle in my eye, and rosy cheeks, and a .....wait a sec. that's Santa, ok, a very very VERY young Santa with a goatee and a swagger. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedScare Posted December 11, 2008 Share Posted December 11, 2008 At least now you're attempting to sound like you want to debate the merits of the plan.This recession and the government response to it appears to be running headlong into traditional notions of wasteful spending. But, the problem with conservative spending during recessions is that it starves the economy of the very medicine it needs...money. If the government stops spending money at the very time that businesses stop spending and consumers stop spending, the economy screeches to a halt. Additionally, while consumer borrowing is limited since the banks stopped lending, and cities, counties and states must cut spending due to lower tax revenue and balanced budget laws, the only group left that can spend is the federal government.It is easy to agree with the fiscal conservatism. It is also easy to have a vengeful attitude toward bad stewardship by Wall Street and Detroit CEOs. But, when those policies threaten to prolong and deepen the recession, what is gained by adhering to them. Isn't it a bit like worrying about the mortgage while your house is on fire?I would ask this. What would you propose in place of this stimulous package, and more importantly, how would your proposal HELP the economy? I see many complaints on these programs. What I never see is a counter-proposal, or why it would work better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexasVines Posted December 11, 2008 Share Posted December 11, 2008 I can assure you TV, Niche and Red are NOT the same person. If you don't believe me, there are about 10 or so other HAIFers that will confirm it, and I am sure Ed would be happy to verify the different IP addresses for you. TV, Niche is about 5'10", looks like a young Bill Gates, don't know if he is an illegitimate offspring, but the resemblance is uncanny, big 80's glasses, and just a touch of geekiness, that we all love. He can talk about money til the cows come home, but nobody is really sure if he himself actually has any. Red is about 5'10", on the brink of midlife crisis, greying, well, he is actually greyed out. I was trying to be nice, dark complextion, he tries to play it as his "Lebanese heritage". Try to imagine George Harrison, without getting all the chicks, and not being a movie star, but definately washup before he was in his prime with a San Tropez tan. Me myself, well. I am 6'3" about 345lbs. and built like an Adonis, if Adonis looked like the Kip's Big Boy, but an Adonis nonetheless, just ask the wife. A sparkle in my eye, and rosy cheeks, and a .....wait a sec. that's Santa, ok, a very very VERY young Santa with a goatee and a swagger. I know they are not the same it is a joke....I have even seen him debate himself and damn big boy how did you fit your big ass in that little car Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jm1fd Posted December 11, 2008 Share Posted December 11, 2008 The first word is "Ideological". Second word is two words joined together totalling three syllables, and the first letter for each syllable is 'c', 't', and 'f', in that order; eleven letters; last letter is 'k'. I hope you're good at crosswords.Ideological countryfolk? I don't get it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheNiche Posted December 11, 2008 Share Posted December 11, 2008 And, your belief that Niche and I are the same person is beyond comical.TV is so damned insulting.I'll bet he's never even heard of highly symmetric dicephalic parapagus conjoined twins. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexasVines Posted December 11, 2008 Share Posted December 11, 2008 (edited) At least now you're attempting to sound like you want to debate the merits of the plan.This recession and the government response to it appears to be running headlong into traditional notions of wasteful spending. But, the problem with conservative spending during recessions is that it starves the economy of the very medicine it needs...money. If the government stops spending money at the very time that businesses stop spending and consumers stop spending, the economy screeches to a halt. Additionally, while consumer borrowing is limited since the banks stopped lending, and cities, counties and states must cut spending due to lower tax revenue and balanced budget laws, the only group left that can spend is the federal government. It is easy to agree with the fiscal conservatism. It is also easy to have a vengeful attitude toward bad stewardship by Wall Street and Detroit CEOs. But, when those policies threaten to prolong and deepen the recession, what is gained by adhering to them. Isn't it a bit like worrying about the mortgage while your house is on fire? I would ask this. What would you propose in place of this stimulous package, and more importantly, how would your proposal HELP the economy? I see many complaints on these programs. What I never see is a counter-proposal, or why it would work better. one of the issues I had with Bush was the spending....but he foolishly tried to "work across the aisle" on education and medicine and then the lib/dims threw him under the bus for political gain....I wish Bush had cut taxes lower for everyone, paid down debt, and cut social programs to the bone and built up some cash reserves....but when you are prevented from cutting social programs when times are good there is really no point in cutting anything else because it is the social programs and their failures that are killing this country....and the two alternatives to Bush were total idiots...which is why they both lost....government should be counter cyclical and when times are good they should step back and not compete with the private sector for employees and build cash....when times are bad they should step in with infrastructure projects and cut taxes Bush is gone now.....lib/dims have control of everything.....and it is the same old BS....only worse as per specifics for transportation only which is the main gist of this thread and the failed obama plan....first I see nothing new or different about paying states from the feds for road maintenance....in fact I just see stupid in that second spending money is not the only answer and as pointed out it is hard to spend it fast enough to make a short term difference...but what could be done immediately in addition to spending is clearing out government stupidity and enviorwhackoism.......like the people that have killed passenger rail between LA and Vegas because of a tortoise....we need to cut taxes on railroad property with rails on it so instead of pulling it up to save taxes we can get railroads to expand....which cuts down wear and tear on highways and cuts down on traffic....but even in Houston of all places we could not build 13 miles of railroad to give chemical plants an alternate to captive shipping rates....in the end it was settled with trackage rights, but it cost way too much to fight and took way too long.....and that would have been jobs....probably still going on right now....we need to approve and fund the movement of rails from out of Brownsville, Harlingen, and MCallen....and once it is moved we need to make sure that people can't build homes near the new rails and if they do that they are mocked and ignored when they cry about the noise in 20 years......we need to do the exact same thing in El Paso and in several other Texas cities.....the ROW needs to be used for public transport......we need to dump the trans Texas waste as far as the roads go and instead move the freight traffic off the rails from San Antonio all the way to Dallas along the single line parallel to I-35......freight traffic moved out of Austin and replaced with public transport.....hell even those greenie weenies can't get it done because of other stupid greenie weenies....all greenie weenies need to be forced to ride bikes or clubbed....preferably both.....we need to upgrade all barge traffic on the Mississippi and feeders so that farmers can ship as efficiently as possible as soon as the crop is out of the ground and or when demand is greatest and include hydro power when it can be done effectively even if it does not cost out immediately.....same with rail traffic for farmers and elevators immediate upgrade of all air traffic control systems....possible aid to airlines to meet efficiency goals on their planes (aid to Boeing basically)....removal of ignorant tort laws that prevent any new small passenger aircraft from coming onto the market because of the threat of lawsuits....the fuel efficiency of planes for US airlines would stimulate the economy immediately if implemented properly....rail in its current or LONG TERM form will not be sufficient for travel over a couple of hundred miles.....I am ok with the broadband plan, but from obama it will surely be a boondoggle wasted on the poor and ignorant that will just have faster porn......schools below the 6th grade should not have any computers in them or one for the teacher at her desk and an overhead to go with it....or perhaps a single computer classroom with a few older computers that can be shared.......people that built computers did so with a chalk and slate education......computers don't teach.....teachers teach....computers are a crutch without going off the topic of transportation that is all I can list off the top of my head....and I realize that transportation is something that will not jump start the economy immediately......but clearing the ignorant gov and greenie weenie hurdles can speed up current projects and get the engineering started for others.....I have multiple other ideas for immediately economic stimulation that are not in this scope of this thread.....and would probably not sit well with most.....but solving problems is not about being popular or responding to what you read in the paper as a "leader" and how about something really different for a change....how about some of YOUR ideas to solve things....that would be a first TV is so damned insulting.I'll bet he's never even heard of highly symmetric dicephalic parapagus conjoined twins. careful I have friends that know the Neches very well...can you make pig noises Edited December 11, 2008 by TexasVines Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedScare Posted December 11, 2008 Share Posted December 11, 2008 First, there is a world of difference between spending during economic expansion and spending during recession. I agree completely that Bush spent wastefully during his terms, especially on the Drug plan and the War in Iraq. I also agree that debt should be lowered during expansion, so that it can be reasonably increased during recession. So, I would disagree on his tax cuts during the expansion. The Clinton rates should have been left in place, so that they could be lowered during recessions to pump more money into the economy. As it is now, we are incurring huge debts at these tax rates, limiting the ability to lower tax rates further OR to spend responsibly.As for government spending on transportation, I agree that money should be spent on infrastructure in general, not just roads. And, it should be spent on improving transit, as well as transportation. I don't think maintanance is all that useful. However, just because Perry and TxDOT make up a list of maintanance projects does not mean that Obama's plan would pay for it. There is the issue of new transit projects taking too long to have an effect on the economy...the primary reason for the stimulus package. I am sympathetic to that. However, I would fund new construction projects that are ready to go, and new transit projects that will take longer.I would also fund energy saving retrofits, which is a portion of his proposal. Not only would I retrofit federal facilities, I would give grants to state and local governments for retrofits. State and local taxpayers are still federal taxpayers. We still benefit.To a large extent, we agree on these things. The only difference is that I recognize the difference between government spending during expansions and recessions, as well as tax policy during expansion and recession, and that I do not find a political motive in everything I read. I also do not use cute misspellings and plays on words that diminish the point that I am trying to make. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dudemeister Posted December 11, 2008 Share Posted December 11, 2008 If TxDot has a monetary shortfall they should seriously look into raising the gas tax, since inflation has increased since the last time it was raised in 1991. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexasVines Posted December 11, 2008 Share Posted December 11, 2008 So, I would disagree on his tax cuts during the expansion. The Clinton rates should have been left in place, so that they could be lowered during recessions to pump more money into the economy. As it is now, we are incurring huge debts at these tax rates, limiting the ability to lower tax rates further OR to spend responsibly.are you really really really trying to say that the USA was not going into a recession at the end of the clinton term and the dotcom bust?are you really really really trying to say that thre was economic growth under Bush.....I bet you were chirping something entirely different for the last 8 years.....I sure know all the lib/dim leaders were....look it up....the recession was under the last few months of clinton....you can't revise the facts......and perhaps you forgot about a thing called 9-11.....and that the USA needed some economic stimulus after that as well.....and then that is when the real political back stabbing started and the daily talk of recession for the next 7 years.....there was never a chance for Bush to raise taxes....and the lib/dims have had the congress for the last two years....that is where real tax policy comes from......why did they nor raise taxes immediately after 2006 or at least attempt to....perhaps it is because they care more about winning elections than keeping promises......like immediately pulling out of Iraq....which obongo will not doand your lil lectures about word games were no where to be found for the last eight years of chimp jokes, idiot calling, and Bush/Shrub bashing.....so get over it....you voted for the failure who can't even keep a promise to get a dog to his kids.....now it is time for more ape comments and idiot bashing....live with itI also agree with efficiency credits....every school in the USA with a decent roof should have solar panels made in the USa and many should have small scale wind turbines in places where the space and the wind exist.....they should also hve ground source hydronic loops either via well bore or through digging up play fields and installing loops and then replacing the field.....the feds should only slightly be involved in this on a per student basis on on the basis of state taxes paid to the feds......and the small oversite to make sure the money is not diverted Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedScare Posted December 11, 2008 Share Posted December 11, 2008 I see why you go for the cute name thing...when trying to make a sober response, your rationale becomes dyslexic.are you really really really trying to say that the USA was not going into a recession at the end of the clinton term and the dotcom bust?The dotcom bust occurred in early 2000. Clinto left office January 20, 2001. The 2001 recession began in March 2001, according to NBER. So, no, I do not link them. However, Bush's tax cuts occurred before we even knew we were in a recession, and took effect in 2002, after we were already out of it.are you really really really trying to say that thre was economic growth under Bush.....I bet you were chirping something entirely different for the last 8 years.....I sure know all the lib/dim leaders were....look it up....the recession was under the last few months of clinton....you can't revise the facts......and perhaps you forgot about a thing called 9-11.....and that the USA needed some economic stimulus after that as well.....and then that is when the real political back stabbing started and the daily talk of recession for the next 7 years.....there was never a chance for Bush to raise taxes....and the lib/dims have had the congress for the last two years....that is where real tax policy comes from......why did they nor raise taxes immediately after 2006 or at least attempt to....perhaps it is because they care more about winning elections than keeping promises......like immediately pulling out of Iraq....which obongo will not doYou are correct that I believe the expansion from November 2001 to December 2007 was a false expansion, where wages did not keep up with inflation, and the expansion was unsustainable due to its reliance on a continuing rise in home prices and abundant credit. But, to keep this barely on topic, I only addressed what government actions are useful in getting out of a recession. The rest of that paragraph is so off tangent that I won't even address it now.and your lil lectures about word games were no where to be found for the last eight years of chimp jokes, idiot calling, and Bush/Shrub bashing.....so get over it....you voted for the failure who can't even keep a promise to get a dog to his kids.....now it is time for more ape comments and idiot bashing....live with itYou've not seen ME use any of that stuff when I want to be taken seriously. And, no one is taking you seriously when you do it, either. It simply makes you sound like a freeper, and we all know how seriously THEY are taken. I don't expect you to actually take the advice. I just thought I'd let you know what you sound like when you do it.I also agree with efficiency credits....every school in the USA with a decent roof should have solar panels made in the USa and many should have small scale wind turbines in places where the space and the wind exist.....they should also hve ground source hydronic loops either via well bore or through digging up play fields and installing loops and then replacing the field.....the feds should only slightly be involved in this on a per student basis on on the basis of state taxes paid to the feds......and the small oversite to make sure the money is not divertedThese proposals may have merit...if we ignore the economists warnings about it taking to long to stimulate the economy...and is the only paragraph that I should have responded to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexasVines Posted December 11, 2008 Share Posted December 11, 2008 I see why you go for the cute name thing...when trying to make a sober response, your rationale becomes dyslexic.actually anyone with common sense would say the resession started in Q2 of 2000 with the NASDAQ melt down under clintonwith out the names you would just have a huge bag of nothing....it is my way of giving you an out....you probably think ENRON was cheating California under Bush and because of Bush policies as well.....and while you may not have used cute names in the past (like freeper) you surely were not lecturing to those that you agree with about it not helping your cause when they used them sounds to me like we both agree obongo is on the wrong path and is doing the opposite of all he said he would as well Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedScare Posted December 11, 2008 Share Posted December 11, 2008 actually anyone with common sense would say the resession started in Q2 of 2000 with the NASDAQ melt down under clintonKnock yourself out.NBER - Mational Bureau of Economic Research(Hint: These are the guys who decide when recessions start and end.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexasVines Posted December 11, 2008 Share Posted December 11, 2008 Knock yourself out.NBER - Mational Bureau of Economic Research(Hint: These are the guys who decide when recessions start and end.)strangely for the last two years all we have heard from the media is that we are in a recession......now you actually want to pull out the true measure of a recession and wave it around Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedScare Posted December 11, 2008 Share Posted December 11, 2008 sounds to me like we both agree obongo is on the wrong path and is doing the opposite of all he said he would as wellNot sure what a TxDOT list of projects has to do with Obama. He is not even in office yet, so any list is premature. Additionally, Obama's wishlist bears far more resemblance to the things you suggest (and that I agree with) than anything TxDOT has put forth. The only difference is that I at least admit that I agree with some of Obama's plan. You do not appear to be able to do so. I have my suspicions as to why.strangely for the last two years all we have heard from the media is that we are in a recession......now you actually want to pull out the true measure of a recession and wave it aroundStrangely, you seem to link what I say with the media, though I am not a journalist. Are you even capable of arguing a point in reality?FWIW, I've only seen the media talking recession for most of this year, since in October of 2007, the DJIA was at a record high. Coincidentally, the NBER came out last week and confirmed the media's guess correct. The current recession began in December 2007. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheNiche Posted December 11, 2008 Share Posted December 11, 2008 NBER - Mational Bureau of Economic Research(Hint: These are the guys who decide when recessions start and end.)...yeah, saying that is about as useful as if I were to describe myself as a 'self-proclaimed genius'. I may be on to something, there, as there is certainly more than one way to skin a cat, but clearly it is an unofficial proclomation.Not sure what a TxDOT list of projects has to do with Obama. He is not even in office yet, so any list is premature.Obama people have been already been prodding various levels of government to have a ready-made list of projects available for evaluation. So this has everything to do with Obama, and if his intent really is to make this a kind of economic stimulus, then he needs to be able to act fast on it so as to quickly bring about the creation/saving of jobs; at least with respect to execution, it is a good approach. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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