2008 PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION: Obama (D-IL) vs. McCain (R-AZ)

[Trae]

Why should I be forced to supplement other's incomes with my hardwork ?

You hear that mister teacher, firefighter, and police officer?

[RedScare]

When you were in private practice, it was the same way for you. Why should I be forced to supplement other's incomes with my hardwork ?

I had no problem paying a higher percentage of my income in taxes when I made more. I was also grateful to pay a lower percentage in those dreadful years when my income dropped below $20,000. Self employed people understand this wild disparity in income from year to year, and I at least did not mind paying more when times were good.

Taxes WILL be raised for everyone if Obama is elected. Before you ask "HOW?", I will tell you, again. When the Bush tax cuts expire, will Obama sign off on those, or will he let them slide ?

I am comfortable paying higher taxes to draw down our huge debt. I do not believe it is fair to pass it on to your children.

No, I don't think McCain knows enough, but he can certainly hire the right economists that do know.

So can Obama. In fact, he already has. McCain has Phil Gramm.

Meme, could you please explain your logic of how Obama isn't going to be raising taxes on small businesses, when over 2/3s of them make over $250k ?

Untrue statement. I'll respond to a true one.

[Trae]

Obama: 357

McCain: 181

http://electoral-vote.com/

[Montrose1100]

But you still haven't explained why you don't want Obama to be president. He isn't going to raise taxes on small business. Why are you so opposed to him and so apathetic at the same time?

Because I don't like his stance on taxes, or "how to fix the economy"... I don't find him fit to be president. Also he said he wouldn't let Civil unions be a national thing, but rather left to the states to decide. Isn't that how it already is? Change my ass. So either way nothing is different.

I also believe McCain is just putting on this conservative mask to get votes.

[Montrose1100]

I did those upgrades on far less than a $320,000 salary. In fact, I've never come close to making that kind of money. Perhaps the fact that I have lived my entire life on far less, I feel like I could spare a few thousand bucks for the country that afforded me the opportunity to make that kind of money.

Again, I apologize to those who make $300,000 a year for me not being more selfish. It is my parents' fault.

Oh Red, you and your logic! Why do you always parachute down with that?

[RedScare]

This just showed up on the Chronicle website...

Record $454.8 Billion deficit for 2008

The federal budget deficit soared to $454.8 billion in 2008 as a housing collapse and efforts to combat the economic slowdown pushed the tide of government red ink to the highest level in history.

The Bush administration said Tuesday the deficit for the budget year that ended Sept. 30 was more than double the $161.5 billion recorded in 2007.

It surpassed the previous record of $413 billion set in 2004. Economists predicted a far worse number next year as the costs of the government's rescue of the financial system and the economic hard times hit the nation's balance sheet.

Some analysts believe that next year's deficit could easily top $700 billion, giving the next president a formidable challenge

Yeah, we need to lower taxes.

[musicman]

Oh Red, you and your logic! Why do you always parachute down with that?

i think he's offering to

[barracuda]

Because I don't like his stance on taxes, or "how to fix the economy"... I don't find him fit to be president. Also he said he wouldn't let Civil unions be a national thing, but rather left to the states to decide. Isn't that how it already is? Change my ass. So either way nothing is different.

I also believe McCain is just putting on this conservative mask to get votes.

So what about Obama's stance on the economy do you disagree with? Is it his focus on middle class tax relief? I just have to ask because the standard conservative lie is that he will raise taxes on the middle class.

http://www.barackobama.com/issues/economy/

Regarding gay rights, Obama has called for the repeal of 'don't ask don't tell,' has co-sponsored legislation on hate crimes to include sexual orientation, supports adding sexual orientation to the employment non-discrimiation act, and supports gay and lesbian adoption.

Granted, he supports civil unions and not gay marriage, but ask yourself, what has McCain done on behalf of the gay community, or civil rights for that matter?

McCain voted against making MLK a holiday in 1983; he thinks don't ask don't tell is working just fine, and he supports the Proposition 8 in California to ban gay marriage (Obama opposes the ban). McCain also voted against extending hate crimes to include sexual orientation, voted against prohibiting job discrimination based upon sexual orientation, and he believes gay marriage should be left to the states.

And I apologize for demonizing an entire political party, but you have to realize that a large part of the Republican base has shifted to the religious right since the Newt Gingrich "Republican Revolution" in 1994. G.W. Bush has only pushed it further into the evangelicals by courting them into his base. These folks have pushed out or scared away many of the traditional fiscal conservatives that may have been more forgiving on social issues, are the religions folks are not about to allow any civil rights for gays. The foundation of their political beliefs system is largely to stop abortion and lock gays into the closet with no rights and no respect.

For all their faults, the Democrats are generally in favor of equal rights for gays, with a few exceptions in the more conservative districts. They do have to make compromises sometimes, such as the civil unions being left to the states. Unfortunately, this is politically necessary in this country. If Obama pushed strongly for a national gay marriage law, it would likely consume his Presidency. I think the gradual fight for individual rights is necessary at this time, and one step at a time, society will come around to doing what's right.

[Disastro]

Because I don't like his stance on taxes, or "how to fix the economy"... I don't find him fit to be president. Also he said he wouldn't let Civil unions be a national thing, but rather left to the states to decide. Isn't that how it already is? Change my ass. So either way nothing is different.

I also believe McCain is just putting on this conservative mask to get votes.

McCain is NOT a conservative.

Hence...why I am not enamored with the guy. But, having him as Pres is better than having a Marxist run the country!

[barracuda]

i think he's offering to

And? This guys is apparently makes a lot of money. A couple of notes...

1) many of the people who complain about taxing the rich are not rich themselves. In fact, most of them probably will do better under the Obama plan. So I have to ask, why do you want to pay for a tax cut for the wealthy?

2) the wealthy are not unanimously opposed to paying more taxes. Bill Gates and Warren Buffet said that the Bush tax cuts on the wealthy and the estate tax repeal were bad ideas, and both felt that they owed it to their country to pay more.

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines01/0214-01.htm

So, you have middle class folks arguing for tax relief on behalf of the rich, and you have rich folks arguing the opposite. Is this just a side effect of the Rush Limbaugh's of the world using the middle class as hapless tools for the benefit of the few?

[barracuda]

McCain is NOT a conservative.

Hence...why I am not enamored with the guy. But, having him as Pres is better than having a Marxist run the country!

You chose to label Obama as Marxist because...

1) you will get a tax cut

2) you think CEOs are underpaid

3) Fox News intertwined Obama and Marxism and said both are scary and bad

Obama may have acknowledged the fact that there is an unacceptable divide between the rich and poor in this country, and his tax plan is based on continuing the survival of the middle class. But this is a far cry from Marxism. If you're going to throw the term Marxist around so lazily, we might as well call McCain a Marxist too for his plan to have the government buy out bad mortgages.

[musicman]

And? This guys is apparently makes a lot of money.

apparently? how much does he make? not sure i like the government deciding how much i can make. Edited October 15, 2008 by musicman

[Montrose1100]

So what about Obama's stance on the economy do you disagree with? Is it his focus on middle class tax relief? I just have to ask because the standard conservative lie is that he will raise taxes on the middle class.

http://www.barackobama.com/issues/economy/

Regarding gay rights, Obama has called for the repeal of 'don't ask don't tell,' has co-sponsored legislation on hate crimes to include sexual orientation, supports adding sexual orientation to the employment non-discrimiation act, and supports gay and lesbian adoption.

Granted, he supports civil unions and not gay marriage, but ask yourself, what has McCain done on behalf of the gay community, or civil rights for that matter?

McCain voted against making MLK a holiday in 1983; he thinks don't ask don't tell is working just fine, and he supports the Proposition 8 in California to ban gay marriage (Obama opposes the ban). McCain also voted against extending hate crimes to include sexual orientation, voted against prohibiting job discrimination based upon sexual orientation, and he believes gay marriage should be left to the states.

And I apologize for demonizing an entire political party, but you have to realize that a large part of the Republican base has shifted to the religious right since the Newt Gingrich "Republican Revolution" in 1994. G.W. Bush has only pushed it further into the evangelicals by courting them into his base. These folks have pushed out or scared away many of the traditional fiscal conservatives that may have been more forgiving on social issues, are the religions folks are not about to allow any civil rights for gays. The foundation of their political beliefs system is largely to stop abortion and lock gays into the closet with no rights and no respect.

For all their faults, the Democrats are generally in favor of equal rights for gays, with a few exceptions in the more conservative districts. They do have to make compromises sometimes, such as the civil unions being left to the states. Unfortunately, this is politically necessary in this country. If Obama pushed strongly for a national gay marriage law, it would likely consume his Presidency. I think the gradual fight for individual rights is necessary at this time, and one step at a time, society will come around to doing what's right.

I read this, been to his site, so I know what he is for. I made my point already.

Edited October 15, 2008 by Montrose1100

[barracuda]

I read this, been to his site, so I know what he is for. I made my point already.

Okay, well you seemed to be basing your opinions on fallacies. Sorry for trying to help.

[memebag]

I read this, been to his site, so I know what he is for. I made my point already.

But you didn't make a point. You say you don't like his stance on taxes, then you misquote his position. You say he wants to leave civil unions to the states, but that isn't what Obama has said. He wants federal recognition for civil unions and he wants gay marriage left to the states.

How can you be against him when you don't know who he is?

[Montrose1100]

But you didn't make a point. You say you don't like his stance on taxes, then you misquote his position. You say he wants to leave civil unions to the states, but that isn't what Obama has said. He wants federal recognition for civil unions and he wants gay marriage left to the states.

How can you be against him when you don't know who he is?

I must be blind as well as crazy. I'm sorry Memebag & Barracuda, I don't mean to get upset. It just feels like every time I discuss something, I paraphrase what I've read and then it comes out not making sense. I'm frustrated. I will say no more on this topic.

Edited October 15, 2008 by Montrose1100

[KinkaidAlum]

If the owners of those businesses are netting 250K+ a year, in personal income... PAY UP. If you re-invest 200K/year back into the business, so you net 50K/year - different story.

Finally.

Why is it that most Americans overhype everything?

The average small business isn't producing that many $250,000aires.

My biz has sales of about $250,000 a year. But, by the time I've finished paying the rent, insurance, production costs, salaries, shipping costs, advertising costs, trade show exhibitor costs, web costs, and basic utilities, I barely have enough to buy myself a slurpee. And I consider myself a lucky one since I've been able to hang on rather than close up shop like so many other small biz owners I know.

However, these past 3 months have been bleak. Nobody is spending money and we are hitting our slow time of year. My biggest concern isn't about taxes, it's about SURVIVAL.

[KinkaidAlum]

But you didn't make a point. You say you don't like his stance on taxes, then you misquote his position. You say he wants to leave civil unions to the states, but that isn't what Obama has said. He wants federal recognition for civil unions and he wants gay marriage left to the states.

How can you be against him when you don't know who he is?

Can you really blame him?

I mean, who is the real Barack Obama? Does anyone really know?

[Disastro]

Can you really blame him?

I mean, who is the real Barack Obama? Does anyone really know?

Well, one clue is to look at his friends and associates over the years. That speaks volumes, but even that alone should not be the only factor. There's plenty that comes out of his mouth that is worthy enough of opposition.

[Disastro]

You chose to label Obama as Marxist because...

1) you will get a tax cut

2) you think CEOs are underpaid

3) Fox News intertwined Obama and Marxism and said both are scary and bad

Obama may have acknowledged the fact that there is an unacceptable divide between the rich and poor in this country, and his tax plan is based on continuing the survival of the middle class. But this is a far cry from Marxism. If you're going to throw the term Marxist around so lazily, we might as well call McCain a Marxist too for his plan to have the government buy out bad mortgages.

Point 1: There's NO WAY he can have all those programs he wants and NOT raise taxes on the middle class. That's what Democrats do. Democrats and taxes go together like peanut butter and jelly and like French fries and ketchup. But Obama is (in part) a Marxist because he believes in "take from the rich and give to the poor". Redistribution of wealth is a symptom of Marxism. I want either a flat tax or a consumption tax. Obama doesn't. He's all about the taxes and the wasteful government programs and handouts. AND -- punishing the financially successful. He's not for CUTTING taxes or government. He's for increasing BOTH -- because you increase one without increasing the other!

Point 2: I never said CEOs are underpaid. However, I DO believe in the capitalist system -- and an unencumbered capitalist system with very little government intervention. Government intervention by Democrats such as Chuck Schumer and Barney Frank (Obama's buddies) are, in part, what caused the current financial crisis. We had a situation where the race card was played and Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac were basically erm...strongly persuaded to provide risky loans to people who had neither the means nor wherewithal to pay back these loans. On top of that, they insisted on little to no oversight! Why? Because -- you guessed it -- that TOO would be "racist" or showing preference. So, they defaulted and the rest is history. These are things Obama also thought was a good idea. So, Schumer...Frank...Obama...Pelosi. All the same scum. Back to capitalism: Everyone is entitled to make whatever they can honestly and ethically make through hard work and dedication to their careers -- CEOs down to the "little man". This is the opposite of what Obama believes.

Point 3: Irrelevant. My news sources are predominantly (although not restricted to) online and provided from many varied sources. I tend to weigh all sites that discuss the topic at hand and if there is a consensus and credible data/facts that support a position then I tend to accept it based on the overwhelming evidence provided. Rather than emotion and feel-good "change and hope", I tend to rely on reason and facts to support a position.

Your final para: There will always always always be those with and without. To take from those who have (who have EARNED what they have) and give it to the so-called poor as handouts IS Marxism. Attempts by a government to "level the playing field" is unmistakably Marxism. It's simply not the government's JOB or responsibility or RIGHT. Finally, how many successful people has the government ever created through wealth redistribution? Show me ONE!

Did this tactic work in Russia? I don't think so. The misery was spread around. Except for the proletariat. THEY had it good. Well, if Obama's plan becomes reality the Democrat proletariat in DC will doing well while the rest of us get screwed!

And again, the more power one gives the government, the more it will TAKE.

There is nothing better than PERSONAL responsibility and LIMITED government intrusion into our lives. Social engineering of the Obama variety IS intrusion...and Marxism. Obama has professed to have enjoyed spending time with his Marxist friends and has been thoroughly indoctrinated in this ideology, although he tries mightily (for now) to mask this indoctrination. Aside from the economic Marxism he believes in, there is also the issue of how he VIEWS this country and his plans for the military.

Obama believes we should unilaterally disarm the military (particularly nuclear disarmament). At a time when our enemies around the world are on the march, this is EXTREMELY dangerous. And to think one can sit down with these enemies and talk them into liking us is absurd. And it's been proven to be absurd historically. Most recently when Clinton/Madeleine Albright/Bush have tried negotiating with North Korea. A resounding success THAT has been.

Again, the friends he keeps reveals much. These are people who hate the ideal of what America has been.

And, I don't think the Obama "acorn" falls far from the Marxist tree.

He is what he is -- a dangerous person. A dangerous naieve little Marxist.

I don't know what else to say. Although there is much, much, more I could say because there is so much about this guy that should be of concern to anyone who believes in the free Capitalist market, national security/sovereignty and basic freedoms.

Dis

Edited October 15, 2008 by Disastro

[N Judah]

Homeownership in general is subsidized top to bottom in this country (including the freeways in between). That should be pretty obvious now, if it isn't already.

[KinkaidAlum]

Point 1: There's NO WAY he can have all those programs he wants and NOT raise taxes on the middle class. That's what Democrats do. Democrats and taxes go together like peanut butter and jelly and like French fries and ketchup. But Obama is (in part) a Marxist because he believes in "take from the rich and give to the poor". Redistribution of wealth is a symptom of Marxism. I want either a flat tax or a consumption tax. Obama doesn't. He's all about the taxes and the wasteful government programs and handouts. AND -- punishing the financially successful. He's not for CUTTING taxes or government. He's for increasing BOTH -- because you increase one without increasing the other!

Point 2: I never said CEOs are underpaid. However, I DO believe in the capitalist system -- and an unencumbered capitalist system with very little government intervention. Government intervention by Democrats such as Chuck Schumer and Barney Frank (Obama's buddies) are, in part, what caused the current financial crisis. We had a situation where the race card was played and Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac were basically erm...strongly persuaded to provide risky loans to people who had neither the means nor wherewithal to pay back these loans. On top of that, they insisted on little to no oversight! Why? Because -- you guessed it -- that TOO would be "racist" or showing preference. So, they defaulted and the rest is history. These are things Obama also thought was a good idea. So, Schumer...Frank...Obama...Pelosi. All the same scum. Back to capitalism: Everyone is entitled to make whatever they can honestly and ethically make through hard work and dedication to their careers -- CEOs down to the "little man". This is the opposite of what Obama believes.

Point 3: Irrelevant. My news sources are predominantly (although not restricted to) online and provided from many varied sources. I tend to weigh all sites that discuss the topic at hand and if there is a consensus and credible data/facts that support a position then I tend to accept it based on the overwhelming evidence provided. Rather than emotion and feel-good "change and hope", I tend to rely on reason and facts to support a position.

Your final para: There will always always always be those with and without. To take from those who have (who have EARNED what they have) and give it to the so-called poor as handouts IS Marxism. Attempts by a government to "level the playing field" is unmistakably Marxism. It's simply not the government's JOB or responsibility or RIGHT. Finally, how many successful people has the government ever created through wealth redistribution? Show me ONE!

Did this tactic work in Russia? I don't think so. The misery was spread around. Except for the proletariat. THEY had it good. Well, if Obama's plan becomes reality the Democrat proletariat in DC will doing well while the rest of us get screwed!

And again, the more power one gives the government, the more it will TAKE.

There is nothing better than PERSONAL responsibility and LIMITED government intrusion into our lives. Social engineering of the Obama variety IS intrusion...and Marxism. Obama has professed to have enjoyed spending time with his Marxist friends and has been thoroughly indoctrinated in this ideology, although he tries mightily (for now) to mask this indoctrination. Aside from the economic Marxism he believes in, there is also the issue of how he VIEWS this country and his plans for the military.

Obama believes we should unilaterally disarm the military (particularly nuclear disarmament). At a time when our enemies around the world are on the march, this is EXTREMELY dangerous. And to think one can sit down with these enemies and talk them into liking us is absurd. And it's been proven to be absurd historically. Most recently when Clinton/Madeleine Albright/Bush have tried negotiating with North Korea. A resounding success THAT has been.

Again, the friends he keeps reveals much. These are people who hate the ideal of what America has been.

And, I don't think the Obama "acorn" falls far from the Marxist tree.

He is what he is -- a dangerous person. A dangerous naieve little Marxist.

I don't know what else to say. Although there is much, much, more I could say because there is so much about this guy that should be of concern to anyone who believes in the free Capitalist market, national security/sovereignty and basic freedoms.

Dis

This post is a disaster.

You preach about personal responsibility and yet you support a regime (McCain/Palin) that wants to continue the dangerous pattern of spending money it doesn't have? The last 8 years have been like a teenager in college who gets his/her first credit card and doesn't understand how it works. They just buy everything from drinks on a night out to a new tapestry for their dorm room. Then the bill comes...And that doesn't even mention the fact that said student started two wars and declared the right to start more at any given time.

It's also nice to see you end with an 'acorn" reference. It came out yesterday that McCain PROUDLY spoke at an acorn sponsored event in 2006. Seems as if McCain has no problem hanging out with the same people.

As for the true danger to our government and things that would make the Founding Fathers gag, look no further than the erosion of checks and balances we've seen under this current administration. Then look to the VP debate when Palin states she wants to expand the powers of the vice president's office so that it has more powers in the congressional realm. That is a true disrespect for the Constitution and exhibits a clear misunderstanding of the document. That is the real danger.

[CoolBuddy06]

This post is a disaster.

You preach about personal responsibility and yet you support a regime (McCain/Palin) that wants to continue the dangerous pattern of spending money it doesn't have? The last 8 years have been like a teenager in college who gets his/her first credit card and doesn't understand how it works. They just buy everything from drinks on a night out to a new tapestry for their dorm room. Then the bill comes...And that doesn't even mention the fact that said student started two wars and declared the right to start more at any given time.

It's also nice to see you end with an 'acorn" reference. It came out yesterday that McCain PROUDLY spoke at an acorn sponsored event in 2006. Seems as if McCain has no problem hanging out with the same people.

As for the true danger to our government and things that would make the Founding Fathers gag, look no further than the erosion of checks and balances we've seen under this current administration. Then look to the VP debate when Palin states she wants to expand the powers of the vice president's office so that it has more powers in the congressional realm. That is a true disrespect for the Constitution and exhibits a clear misunderstanding of the document. That is the real danger.

In as much as the idea of Palin as Veep nauseates me, please don't hold her down on that fact, she just doesn't know what she's talking about. She isn't coached on VP powers yet so she uttered nonsense.

[TJones]

You hear that mister teacher, firefighter, and police officer?

Civil Service workers are hardly what I am referring to. Let's take a look at those on Welfare, and Illegals. I would happily pay twice the tax I do now if it all went to Teachers, Firefighters and Policemen. You hear that you wonderful civil service folks.

You hear that mister teacher, firefighter, and police officer?

Civil Service workers are hardly what I am referring to. Let's take a look at those on Welfare, and Illegals. I would happily pay twice the tax I do now if it all went to Teachers, Firefighters and Policemen. You hear that you wonderful civil service folks. Just so y'all know Trae knew what I meant also, but he prefers to twist things.

Red, the statement IS true, or are you calling the IRS liars ? I even posted the link to show you. Besides, it was for Meme to answer, not you.

[Trae]

Civil Service workers are hardly what I am referring to. Let's take a look at those on Welfare, and Illegals. I would happily pay twice the tax I do now if it all went to Teachers, Firefighters and Policemen. You hear that you wonderful civil service folks.

Civil Service workers are hardly what I am referring to. Let's take a look at those on Welfare, and Illegals. I would happily pay twice the tax I do now if it all went to Teachers, Firefighters and Policemen. You hear that you wonderful civil service folks. Just so y'all know Trae knew what I meant also, but he prefers to twist things.

I actually didn't know what you meant, but since you're talking about welfare, I guess I should tell my cousin Karen what you're saying. Raising two kids alone in an apartment in Lake Charles. Welfare is pretty much the only way her kids eat. Working at Walmart doesn't pay too much. There are so many other examples like this. There are also those that abuse the welfare system. I guess you were trying to lump all of those who abuse the welfare system as the only ones who use it. There are bad teachers and cops you know...

[memebag]

Red, the statement IS true, or are you calling the IRS liars ? I even posted the link to show you. Besides, it was for Meme to answer, not you.

What statement are you refering to?

[BryanS]

CNN now reporting that VA is polling for Obama. Wow.

John McCain's campaign:

...or Bernake's/Paulson's latest rescue efforts. (source: tickerforum.org)

[RedScare]

Vote McCain. SAVE JIMMY THE FRY GUY!!!"

Turns out, this is not entirely correct. It is JOE THE PLUMBER!

[memebag]

Turns out, this is not entirely correct. It is JOE THE PLUMBER!

Apparently Joe is a great plumber. He's booked solid, 2000 hours a year at over $125/hour. What is his secret?

[KinkaidAlum]

McCain was acting McCrazyTrain.

Obama offers a real plan for health care. He offers some solid ideas on the economy and clearly will surround himself with capable people. He also offers ideas for education that are far superior to just vouchers. I also appreciated his candor with regards to the abortion issues/Supreme Court nominations line of questioning. He is the superior candidate and the polls are starting to clearly show that fact.

I am dumbfounded by McCain. Tonight's performance was a clear pep-rally for the base. The problem is that base is way too small to win a national election even with today's ruling that might throw out 600,000 newly registered voters in Ohio due to only 1/3rd of those having some database matching errors (meaning 400,000 valid new voters might be forced to vote on provisional ballots).

When McCain was commenting about women's "health" with regards to late-term abortions my draw dropped. Was he REALLY saying that "health" is a trumped up term by women and doctors to strike up the abortion mills? And he wonders why women everywhere aren't falling all over him for picking Palin...