2008 PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION: Obama (D-IL) vs. McCain (R-AZ)

[sarahiki]

Because the Democrats told the banks to loan to everyone, without the bank to have some collateral like house titles... So the Banks eventually got greedy and thats why we're in this mess.

Wow! Here the economists have had trouble both predicting and explaining this mess, everyone agrees it's incredibly complex, and yet YOU are able to boil it down to this very simple explanation: the Democrats told banks to loan to everyone.

You should really let some of the big media outlets know that you've figured it all out. The rest of the world would be very grateful.

[Montrose1100]

Wow! Here the economists have had trouble both predicting and explaining this mess, everyone agrees it's incredibly complex, and yet YOU are able to boil it down to this very simple explanation: the Democrats told banks to loan to everyone.

You should really let some of the big media outlets know that you've figured it all out. The rest of the world would be very grateful.

Would you have thought me to be crazier if I blamed the computers for panicking? Every Bubble bursts, and eventually gets better. Seriously, what's your opinion? So I can be rude to your response.

[KinkaidAlum]

No, I am not looking to the Republican party for Gay Rights... How did you get that? I am looking to the Republican party for a better state of health of the country... And I said I am willing to sacrifice being a 2nd class Citizen for a better economy... I'm pro-choice as well, even though Palin is against it. I hate her.

I am getting it because you've told us before that you were voting for McCain/Palin and now you've told us you have a hard one for Huckabee.

AND, before you stated you were willing to be a second class citizen in order to be wealthier, you stated that you "we're sick" about how parents treat your gay friends.

Back in the civil rights days, if you happened to have been black, you'd have been called an Uncle Tom.

I think we need a new term for gay Republicans. Auntie Janes?

[BryanS]

No, I am not looking to the Republican party for Gay Rights... How did you get that? I am looking to the Republican party for a better state of health of the country... And I said I am willing to sacrifice being a 2nd class Citizen for a better economy... I'm pro-choice as well, even though Palin is against it. I hate her.

Where have you been these past 8 years? There's not much more left that George Bush and the Republicans can screw up. Oh... and about that second class citizenship... When McCain gets into office, you can count on a Supreme Court that will be hostile to your rights, as a gay man. A repeal of Lawrence? Perhaps. We'll all look to you as our model of abstinence as you sacrifice your bedroom privacy rights for the rest of us. You will obey the law, right? Meanwhile, the rest of us will be pushing for equality under the law, to make this country a better place for everyone. No one deserves second class citizenship in this country. No one.

[Montrose1100]

I am getting it because you've told us before that you were voting for McCain/Palin and now you've told us you have a hard one for Huckabee.

AND, before you stated you were willing to be a second class citizen in order to be wealthier, you stated that you "we're sick" about how parents treat your gay friends.

Back in the civil rights days, if you happened to have been black, you'd have been called an Uncle Tom.

I think we need a new term for gay Republicans. Auntie Janes?

Nothing is going to change for a few years for us anyways.

Where have you been these past 8 years? There's not much more left that George Bush and the Republicans can screw up. Oh... and about that second class citizenship... When McCain gets into office, you can count on a Supreme Court that will be hostile to your rights, as a gay man. A repeal of Lawrence? Perhaps. We'll all look to you as our model of abstinence as you sacrifice your bedroom privacy rights for the rest of us. You will obey the law, right? Meanwhile, the rest of us will be pushing for equality under the law, to make this country a better place for everyone. No one deserves second class citizenship in this country. No one.

Your right, but a lot of people are. But what rights will we all have when we're in another "Great Depression"? We can be a free as a bird in our Hoovervilles. Look, I've stated how I don't want to vote for either party. I even took off my McCain/Palin HAIF Bumper sticker signature. I'm only being extreme because none of y'all understand and jump to conclusions and assume when I say anything. I know I should be more serious and more thoughtful on what I say, even more so on this topic.

I have my insane views, and you've all made that very clear. I can't have my cake and eat it too. I get it, and thats why I'm not voting.

Where have I been the past 8 years? Well 7 of them in Houston, enjoying my life to the fullest. Where were you? And when the Supreme Court goes Westbury Baptist Church on all of us, Then you'll find me in Europe.

Edited October 14, 2008 by Montrose1100

[memebag]

Because the Democrats told the banks to loan to everyone, without the bank to have some collateral like house titles... So the Banks eventually got greedy and thats why we're in this mess.

First, banks don't do what Democrats (or Republicans) tell them to do. They do whatever the law allows if they think it will make money. Both Democrats and Republicans relaxed existing regulations and prevented new regulations that would have stopped banks from making bad loans and creating freaky derivatives that are at the core of the current financial crisis. The difference is that Republicans shouted the loudest for deregulation and hailed it as the savior of Western civilization. Democrats just went along because they were stupid.

You have to be aware of that already. So really, why don't you want Obama to be president?

[Montrose1100]

So really, why don't you want Obama to be president?

From what I've gathered, he's not fit to be President. High Taxes, even for small businesses!

Stanford University Economist, Michael Boskin: “History teaches us that high taxes and protectionism are not conducive to a thriving economy, the extreme case being the higher taxes and tariffs that deepened the Great Depression. While such a policy mix would be a real change, as philosophers remind us, change is not always progress.” (“Obamanomics is a Recipe for Recession” The Wall Street Journal, July 29, 2008)

Edited October 14, 2008 by Montrose1100

[memebag]

From what I've gathered, he's not fit to be President. High Taxes, even for small businesses!

Can you cite a source for Obama's plan to raise taxes on small businesses? Maybe something that contradicts the info on his web site: http://www.barackobama.com/pdf/SmallBusinessFINAL.pdf

[TJones]

Can you cite a source for Obama's plan to raise taxes on small businesses? Maybe something that contradicts the info on his web site: http://www.barackobama.com/pdf/SmallBusinessFINAL.pdf

Isn't Obama's plan to raise taxes on those making over $250k a year ? So, let's say the average PROFIT of a business is 8% to 10% of gross sales. A small business with sales of just $4 million in a good year will put these businesses in the BIG tax bracket.

Here you go meme. http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0708/11670.html

[RedScare]

Isn't Obama's plan to raise taxes on those making over $250k a year ? So, let's say the average PROFIT of a business is 8% to 10% of gross sales. A small business with sales of just $4 million in a good year will put these businesses in the BIG tax bracket.

Here you go meme. http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0708/11670.html

A small business with sales of $4 million would only pay higher taxes if their profit was over $250,000. Those with profits under $250,000 would not get an increase. Additionally, the increase would only be on the income ABOVE $250,000. The first $250,000 would not be changed. So, if I made $300,000, I would pay an extra 4.9% on the last 50,000....about $2,450.

I know that I cannot speak for everyone, but I would not mind paying an extra 2500 bucks on my 300K profit to help keep my country from going bankrupt. That's just me, but it may help explain why the wringing of hands and gnashing of teeth has little effect on me. I believe that those of us who have benefitted the most from living in this country should do the most to keep it afloat. Arguments that I am not greedy and selfish enough to demand lower taxes just do not hold sway with me.

The National Debt was $5.7 Trillion when Bush took office. It is currently $10.3 Trillion, and will likely be $11.5 Trillion when Bush leaves office. Think about that. Bush and his supporters have DOUBLED the National Debt in 8 years. He had a surplus when he took office. Someone has to pay that bill. If the country goes bankrupt, who will be hurt most? The poor will remain poor. What will the upper middle class and wealthy do?

[memebag]

Isn't Obama's plan to raise taxes on those making over $250k a year ? So, let's say the average PROFIT of a business is 8% to 10% of gross sales. A small business with sales of just $4 million in a good year will put these businesses in the BIG tax bracket.

That's not raising taxes on small business, that's raising taxes on people who make more than $250k per year. Why should they be excluded because they own small businesses?

[RedScare]

That's not raising taxes on small business, that's raising taxes on people who make more than $250k per year. Why should they be excluded because they own small businesses?

Because they drive Hummer H2s with big decals on the windows?

[TJones]

Because they drive Hummer H2s with big decals on the windows?

Did you two even bother to do the math ? 8% on $4mil is $320k. Look who just fell into Obama's web.

Meme, people who own small businesses usually pay themkselves a salary. They pay taxes on that salary, and then have to pay taxes on their profitable small business under Obama's plan.

Red, couldn't you use that extra $2400 for some more upgrades to your house ? Here, since a big stepper like you isn't worried about $2400 just give me $1500 and I'll leave you alone. I bet people like Mark are worried about that $2400.

Edited October 14, 2008 by TJones

[memebag]

Did you two even bother to do the math ? 8% on $4mil is $320k. Look who just fell into Obama's net.

We know. We're OK with raising taxes on families that make over $250k. Remember? We're voting for Obama, with all the other Marxists.

[Montrose1100]

Obama says that most small businesses do not earn over $250,000 a year. That is clearly a lie.

It is impossible. It cannot be true. Your own instinct tells you that. You in small business know full well it can't be true. Now, the employees of a small business might believe it. Most employees don't get to see the books. But if you're an employee of small business, and there are five or six other employees in your small business (and that's a small business) just add up your combined salaries and find out if your small business has enough to pay them. If you're making $50,000 a year at a small business and there are five of you, that's $250,000 right there. If there are three of you and one's making 30, one's making 70, one's making 60, you can see how just the number of employees will get you close to what Obama says is the top of most small businesses.

That $250,000 is key because he wants all of you who don't make that amount of money to think you're not going to get a tax increase.

Link

Try here too

[TJones]

We know. We're OK with raising taxes on families that make over $250k. Remember? We're voting for Obama, with all the other Marxists.

That isn't how Obama explains it. He tries to tell loyal followers, like yourself, that it is the BIG companies that fall into this category. He doesn't make mention that it is the guy that owns the McDonald's down the street from you, who hires all those folks to do a job. You think he is gonna let higher taxes cut into his Mickey D's profit ? Nope, he is gonna let Jimmy the fry guy go, in order to make up for that money.

Edited October 14, 2008 by TJones

[RedScare]

Did you two even bother to do the math ? 8% on $4mil is $320k. Look who just fell into Obama's web.

Meme, people who own small businesses usually pay themkselves a salary. They pay taxes on that salary, and then have to pay taxes on their profitable small business under Obama's plan.

Red, couldn't you use that extra $2400 for some more upgrades to your house ? Here, since a big stepper like you isn't worried about $2400 just give me $1500 and I'll leave you alone. I bet people like Mark are worried about that $2400.

I did those upgrades on far less than a $320,000 salary. In fact, I've never come close to making that kind of money. Perhaps the fact that I have lived my entire life on far less, I feel like I could spare a few thousand bucks for the country that afforded me the opportunity to make that kind of money.

Again, I apologize to those who make $300,000 a year for me not being more selfish. It is my parents' fault.

[west20th]

Link

Try here too

Please. ID all links to Rush Limbaugh. I almost lost my lunch.

[TJones]

I did those upgrades on far less than a $320,000 salary. In fact, I've never come close to making that kind of money. Perhaps the fact that I have lived my entire life on far less, I feel like I could spare a few thousand bucks for the country that afforded me the opportunity to make that kind of money.

Again, I apologize to those who make $300,000 a year for me not being more selfish. It is my parents' fault.

Fair enough, let's not even use BIG monies. Let's say you only made $30,000 a year. If I stole $240 from you, and redistributed it to the barflys who couldn't afford another round at the wateringhole down the street, and didn't include you in the windfall of drinks, would you be pissed ?

Edited October 14, 2008 by TJones

[RedScare]

Link

Try here too

Are you in college, montrose? Do you buy that math? I sure hope not.

BTW, as one who was a small businessman for the last 15 years, I can safely say that Rush is full of it. I routinely had employees making more money than I. In fact, want to know what is great fun? Try going to your bank to borrow money to PAY your employees! It's so cool! In 2001, our last recession, I had negative income for much of the year! Not $320,000, TJ. Not $250,000, Rush. NEGATIVE income! The good news is neither candidate proposes taxing me when I lose money. The other good news is that business picked up later in the year, so I had to pay taxes on my $18,000. Not that I minded. Much better to pay taxes on 18 grand than get a tax break for losing money....at least in my world.

[west20th]

That isn't how Obama explains it. He tries to tell loyal followers, like yourself, that it is the BIG companies that fall into this category. He doesn't make mention that it is the guy that owns the McDonald's down the street from you, who hires all those folks to do a job. You think he is gonna let higher taxes cut into his Mickey D's profit ? Nope, he is gonna let Jimmy the fry guy go, in order to make up for that money.

Vote McCain. SAVE JIMMY THE FRY GUY!!!"

[TJones]

Vote McCain. SAVE JIMMY THE FRY GUY!!!"

LOL! I am glad you are finally seeing the light west !

[westguy]

D Magazine's editor endorses Obama:

(Since I cannot post the whole thing, I will just choose an excerpt.)

...

But today it is so-called conservatives who are cemented to political programs when they clearly don

[Montrose1100]

Are you in college, montrose? Do you buy that math? I sure hope not.

I just googled whatever and put it up. I really don't care anymore, and I'm just gonna vote independent or whatever is 3rd on the ballot. If the country is going to hell in a Hand basket, might as well hold the handle!

[RedScare]

Fair enough, let's not even use BIG monies. Let's say you only made $30,000 a year. If I stole $240 from you, and redistributed it to the barflys who couldn't afford another round at the wateringhole down the street, and didn't include you in the windfall of drinks, would you be pissed ?

Do you really think that a bar analogy is going to change my opinion that those fortunate enough to succeed in this country should invest the most in ensuring its solvency? At what point would you concede that perhaps we as a nation should start paying our bills? If not at $11.5 Trillion, perhaps at $15 Trillion? $20 Trillion? When? John McCain's plans would add $5 Trillion to our debt in 10 years, while Obama's would add $3.6 Trillion. Remember, these estimates were calculated BEFORE the government decided to throw $2 Trillion at the economy.

This talk about lowering taxes while our debt is spiraling upward reminds me of the GM talk about SUV sales being unaffected as the price of gasoline shot up. We see how that one turned out. While I understand why BOTH candidates talk of tax cuts, it still annoys me. Why can't Americans handle the truth? Who among us REALLY thinks we can continue to run deficts approaching $1 Trillion per year forever? Do you really think you won't be around when it comes time to pay the piper? Do you REALLY think that the days of easy credit and unbridled spending while lowering taxes will return? Do you REALLY think that John McCain and his running mate have any idea what to do with the economy?

Bad bar analogies and accusations of Marxism aside, I am willing to pay my fair share. If that means tax increases for those making UNDER $250,000 (which includes me), so be it. Telling me I am not selfish enough is really just not going to make me change my mind.

[N Judah]

I really don't care anymore, and I'm just gonna vote independent or whatever is 3rd on the ballot. If the country is going to hell in a Hand basket, might as well hold the handle!

Actually that puts you squarely on the side of Sarah "End of Days" Palin. And another tally mark for the GOP!

Edited October 14, 2008 by N Judah

[memebag]

I just googled whatever and put it up. I really don't care anymore, and I'm just gonna vote independent or whatever is 3rd on the ballot. If the country is going to hell in a Hand basket, might as well hold the handle!

But you still haven't explained why you don't want Obama to be president. He isn't going to raise taxes on small business. Why are you so opposed to him and so apathetic at the same time?

[TJones]

It is not about being selfish, you hit on the point though, it is about what is FAIR ??? A Flat Tax is fair in my opinion. Why should anyone be penalized for working harder than others, to make more money, yet you would have us all on the same level of income by taxing only those who work harder to make everything fair ? In your world I guess meme is right, "Grasshoppers R00L !!!" My potential of income depends on how hard I decide to work. When you were in private practice, it was the same way for you. Why should I be forced to supplement other's incomes with my hardwork ?

Taxes WILL be raised for everyone if Obama is elected. Before you ask "HOW?", I will tell you, again. When the Bush tax cuts expire, will Obama sign off on those, or will he let them slide ?

No, I don't think McCain knows enough, but he can certainly hire the right economists that do know.

Meme, could you please explain your logic of how Obama isn't going to be raising taxes on small businesses, when over 2/3s of them make over $250k ?

Edited October 14, 2008 by TJones

[memebag]

Meme, could you please explain your logic of how Obama isn't going to be raising taxes on small businesses, when over 2/3s of them make over $250k ?

He hasn't proposed raising taxes on small businesses. If the owner or an employee of a small business makes over $250k, those taxes will increase.

Payscale.com lists the median salary for a small business owner at around $70,000. Where are you getting your numbers?

Why should I be forced to supplement other's incomes with my hardwork ?

Because you live in the USA.

[BryanS]

Meme, could you please explain your logic of how Obama isn't going to be raising taxes on small businesses, when over 2/3s of them make over $250k ?

If the owners of those businesses are netting 250K+ a year, in personal income... PAY UP. If you re-invest 200K/year back into the business, so you net 50K/year - different story.