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Tully Stadium


TheNiche

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I'm looking at a land use map of the Energy Corridor, and there is a massive blob of publicly-owned land along Dairy-Ashford, completely engulfed by commercial and multifamily uses. Some of that blob has to remain; it is a high school and an elementary school. But the stadium and sports complex?

Considering the health of the office and apartment markets in the Energy Corridor, does it strike anyone as a possibility that Spring Branch ISD might one day sell out their well-located stadium to developers, take the cash, and run? ...perhaps build a new stadium and sports complex somewhere in either the Addicks or Barker reservior?

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I'm looking at a land use map of the Energy Corridor, and there is a massive blob of publicly-owned land along Dairy-Ashford, completely engulfed by commercial and multifamily uses. Some of that blob has to remain; it is a high school and an elementary school. But the stadium and sports complex?

Considering the health of the office and apartment markets in the Energy Corridor, does it strike anyone as a possibility that Spring Branch ISD might one day sell out their well-located stadium to developers, take the cash, and run? ...perhaps build a new stadium and sports complex somewhere in either the Addicks or Barker reservior?

God I hope not, That is right next to my old high school, I love Tully with its grassy hills!

tully2.jpgtully.jpg

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Considering the health of the office and apartment markets in the Energy Corridor, does it strike anyone as a possibility that Spring Branch ISD might one day sell out their well-located stadium to developers, take the cash, and run? ...perhaps build a new stadium and sports complex somewhere in either the Addicks or Barker reservior?

That would be a little tough. Forget the environmental impact studies and flooding concerns such a plan would spawn. It's never going to happen for a very simple reason... neither of those areas is within Spring Branch ISD. Both are in Katy. HISD's westernmost boundary is Highway 6, but the Addicks reservoir across the highway is in KISD proper.

Tully Stadium was built in 1965 and is in great shape. Of course, when only 100 or so people come to the games (that's for both sides combined), it doesn't put much wear and tear on the facility. I went to an Aldine/Spring Woods game last year and I counted - yes, counted - just over 100 people. That's a shame. I've done a history of Aldine's football team and when we were in the same district as the SBISD schools in the mid 1960s, the same Aldine/Spring Woods game would draw over 5,000.

On the bright side, at least I didn't have long to wait at the concession stand.

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That would be a little tough. Forget the environmental impact studies and flooding concerns such a plan would spawn. It's never going to happen for a very simple reason... neither of those areas is within Spring Branch ISD. Both are in Katy. HISD's westernmost boundary is Highway 6, but the Addicks reservoir across the highway is in KISD proper.

Tully Stadium was built in 1965 and is in great shape. Of course, when only 100 or so people come to the games (that's for both sides combined), it doesn't put much wear and tear on the facility. I went to an Aldine/Spring Woods game last year and I counted - yes, counted - just over 100 people. That's a shame. I've done a history of Aldine's football team and when we were in the same district as the SBISD schools in the mid 1960s, the same Aldine/Spring Woods game would draw over 5,000.

On the bright side, at least I didn't have long to wait at the concession stand.

Well perhaps the low turnout is an indicator that the land has a higher and better use. Would it be that difficult for the City of Houston to allocate land for a replacement stadium and sports complex from George Bush Park, the largest municipal park in the United States? Especially once Memorial Drive gets punched through? There's nothing that says that a stadium has to be located within the school district's boundaries, after all, right? And then both the City of Houston and SBISD would stand to benefit because non-taxable land would be converted to revenue-producing property that would quickly (I suspect) have some very high-value commercial improvments on it.

Seems like a winning idea to me.

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Well perhaps the low turnout is an indicator that the land has a higher and better use.

Huh?!?

Those two have nothing to do with each other.

Has more to do with Spring Woods has a terrible team, has had a terrible team for a LONG time and that the demographics of the Spring Woods High School attendance zone has dramatically changed and these new residents don't much care for high school football. The value of the land has zip to do with that.

Wouldn't surprise me if SBISD did sell off a good portion of the parking lot. Seems like there's a lot more parking than is necessary.

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Huh?!?

Those two have nothing to do with each other.

Has more to do with Spring Woods has a terrible team, has had a terrible team for a LONG time and that the demographics of the Spring Woods High School attendance zone has dramatically changed and these new residents don't much care for high school football. The value of the land has zip to do with that.

Wouldn't surprise me if SBISD did sell off a good portion of the parking lot. Seems like there's a lot more parking than is necessary.

Exactly. If the value of its use as a sports complex has declined, perhaps the land could be put to greater productive use as an office park or mixed-use urban zone. Hell, I'd think that the high schoolers would appreciate that kind of an environment enough to make it worthwhile for those few who care to drive over to a sports complex in the reservoir. Seems like everyone could be made more happy, and the school district could really cash out.

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Huh?!?

Those two have nothing to do with each other.

Has more to do with Spring Woods has a terrible team, has had a terrible team for a LONG time and that the demographics of the Spring Woods High School attendance zone has dramatically changed and these new residents don't much care for high school football. The value of the land has zip to do with that.

Wouldn't surprise me if SBISD did sell off a good portion of the parking lot. Seems like there's a lot more parking than is necessary.

Besides, I believe Memorial and Stratford get higher attendances at American football games.

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I'm looking at a land use map of the Energy Corridor, and there is a massive blob of publicly-owned land along Dairy-Ashford, completely engulfed by commercial and multifamily uses. Some of that blob has to remain; it is a high school and an elementary school. But the stadium and sports complex?

Considering the health of the office and apartment markets in the Energy Corridor, does it strike anyone as a possibility that Spring Branch ISD might one day sell out their well-located stadium to developers, take the cash, and run? ...perhaps build a new stadium and sports complex somewhere in either the Addicks or Barker reservior?

You're starting to sound like Plastic. What's next, elevated moving sidewalks for Downtown?

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No.

Honestly, what is so far out about this idea (other than that the City, a school district, and the Corps of Engineers would have to cooperate)?

My answer: Why not consider the games played by Memorial High School and Stratford High School?

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My answer: Why not consider the games played by Memorial High School and Stratford High School?

Just to be clear, I'm not advocating the removal of SPISD's football program. Just a physical relocation of where the games are held. That's all.

In fact, they might just promise some share of the proceeds from the land sale to the athletics department in excess of what it'd take to relocate the facilities, so that everybody could come out ahead.

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Just to be clear, I'm not advocating the removal of SPISD's football program. Just a physical relocation of where the games are held. That's all.

In fact, they might just promise some share of the proceeds from the land sale to the athletics department in excess of what it'd take to relocate the facilities, so that everybody could come out ahead.

You're assuming the purpose of high school athletics is to make money. It isn't. Yet.

Hopefully that will never be the case, as the pursuit of ever more money has ruined college football. High school football is the last bastion of amateur sport, where one can go enjoy a game and watch players take the field pretty much for the enjoyment and experience of representing their schools and neighborhood. However, dark clouds loom on the horizon and that may not be the case for much longer and that's a damn shame.

Tully is a perfectly fine stadium located in fairly close proximity to all the SBISD schools. I'm still trying to figure why in the world you're advocating the district do anything whatsoever.

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Those corporate campuses are on much quieter and better hidden places like Enclave where there doesn't seem to be a shortage of land.

Yeah, Enclave still has vacant land because those parts of the Energy Corridor that are more accessible to the Katy Freeway are already largely built out or spoken for. ...well that, and Sysco owns and is holding in inventory quite a bit of vacant land for some reason. They even tore down their old building and built in its place for their headquarters expansion rather than do something on one of their many greenfield sites. Most of the non-Sysco construction in that area is multifamily residential, with a smattering of retail and hospitality as well.

Much more new office construction is occuring off of I-10 between Dairy Ashford and Highway 6, where BP, Shell, Conoco, and Trammell Crow each have major projects under way. I'd hardly consider that area tranquil.

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You're assuming the purpose of high school athletics is to make money. It isn't. Yet.

Hopefully that will never be the case, as the pursuit of ever more money has ruined college football. High school football is the last bastion of amateur sport, where one can go enjoy a game and watch players take the field pretty much for the enjoyment and experience of representing their schools and neighborhood. However, dark clouds loom on the horizon and that may not be the case for much longer and that's a damn shame.

No, I'm just looking for a way to show you that this can be a win-win deal if the stakeholders are cooperative.

Tully is a perfectly fine stadium located in fairly close proximity to all the SBISD schools. I'm still trying to figure why in the world you're advocating the district do anything whatsoever.

Yes, you are correct that there is nothing wrong with Tully Stadium. I'm not saying that anything is wrong with it or that new facilities are needed.

What I'm saying, though, is that the land on which the stadium is currently located is worth a sufficiently large sum of money that SBISD and other taxing jurisdictions might consider working together to relocate the facilities to a tract of land that could never possibly be utilized by taxable entities in the future (i.e. one of the reservoirs). By doing so, the school district would recognize a substantial and immediate cash flow and all taxing entities would be able to draw additional tax revenues from non-residential land uses, which means that either 1) the same services could be provided at a lower tax rate or 2) a higher level of service could be financed without raising taxes.

The secondary impacts are that the private sector is able to utilize that massive block of land to its highest and best use, which would likely include some combination of multifamily, office, retail, hosptiality, and possibly other uses. Moreover, if SBISD were to place deed restrictions on the site in such a way that development created positive externalities, it could raise area land values to the point that some of the cruddy apartments east of Tully would be redeveloped or substantially renovated. When apartments see rental rate appreciation, the demographics change, most frequently in ways that are in the school district's favor. Fewer children, wealthier households, larger tax base.

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Might as well sell Stratford High while they're at it. After all, it's located right next Tully. I'm sure that would work quite well as a multi-use development too.

Your idea from a strictly business point of view is quite sound. If I had a business where Tully Stadium is, I'd take your advice and run to the bank. But from a school district point of view, it makes no real sense. A school district doesn't exist to make money, it exists to educate students. It would have to be an extraordinary deal for them to do what you suggest.

But then, they have done such a deal in the past. They did sell a junior high school campus (I believe it was a junior high) on the Katy Freeway that now serves as a site for a multi-story high-rise.

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yes a corporate campus next to a school is a great idea. I highly doubt it would work out. The closest corporate campus is north a few miles for conoco but it has no impact on Stratford. That use would cause too much of a traffic hazard in the area and more ROW.

If it was created into housing, it would be low income (see the area). Unless the person that utilizes area also buys the apartments and surrounding townhomes, etc and redevelops it.

What I want to know is what is katy isd going to do with the land off hwy 6?

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Might as well sell Stratford High while they're at it. After all, it's located right next Tully. I'm sure that would work quite well as a multi-use development too.

Your idea from a strictly business point of view is quite sound. If I had a business where Tully Stadium is, I'd take your advice and run to the bank. But from a school district point of view, it makes no real sense. A school district doesn't exist to make money, it exists to educate students. It would have to be an extraordinary deal for them to do what you suggest.

But then, they have done such a deal in the past. They did sell a junior high school campus (I believe it was a junior high) on the Katy Freeway that now serves as a site for a multi-story high-rise.

The high school needs to exist on land that is not prone to flooding, and thus cannot be moved into the reservoir. At some point way off down the road, Stafford and other schools in our region may be reconstructed in a more vertical way, but that isn't likely to make sense anytime in the forseeable future.

The reason that Tully Stadium is such a good target for this kind of a deal is that it can be replaced without becoming unreasonably expensive...that doesn't mean that SBISD wouldn't go to the extremes of CFISD's Berry Center...and after the land sale, they could probably afford it if they wanted to...but that is left to their discretion. And if it floods from time to time, the improvements are only used seasonally, and then only for a few hours at a time for any given game, so the episodic impacts would be much less lasting or costly than they would be if they struck a fully-functioning high school or other similar facilities. Moreover, high school stadia tend not to be technically complicated, and could be built so as not to be affected by floods except to the extent that they would need to be washed down after such an event.

A school district is an economic actor, not unlike a private sector firm. By utilizing such valuable land, the school district is crowding out the private sector, which would've put the land to a higher and better use. Moreover, such a deal would be beneficial to all taxing and taxable entities with jurisdiction in the area. I really don't see why the issue is so contentious.

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yes a corporate campus next to a school is a great idea. I highly doubt it would work out. The closest corporate campus is north a few miles for conoco but it has no impact on Stratford. That use would cause too much of a traffic hazard in the area and more ROW.

If it was created into housing, it would be low income (see the area). Unless the person that utilizes area also buys the apartments and surrounding townhomes, etc and redevelops it.

Think about all the wealthy households zoned to Stafford HS. In wealthy households, teenagers control a good bit of cash. Think of the opportunities available to many retailers. Not only would they have the good demographics, corporate population, visibility, and accessibility off of Dairy Ashford, but they'd have all these yuppie children as an easily-accessible market. I'd expect more than just a corporate campus in this case.

I'd also expect that new apartments would be solid Class A properties. There are cruddy apartments down Eldridge and Enclave as well, but it hasn't kept Sueba from developing a lot of successful product. The only thing that keeps apartment developers out of this area is that there isn't as much vacant developable land to work with except in areas immediately off of I-10, where land prices are too high for most residential product.

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that is true but would a developer build class A apartments so close to low income housing? in the enclave-eldridge corridor sueba has built away from the class b and c apartments that are housed next to the village school.

it would be a nice retail center but I was only commenting on the corporate campus idea which was posted on the board. other utilizations will likely be better. there are areas north of i-10 which sbisd can use for a new stadium without interfering with reservoirs (eg britmoore).

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that is true but would a developer build class A apartments so close to low income housing? in the enclave-eldridge corridor sueba has built away from the class b and c apartments that are housed next to the village school.

it would be a nice retail center but I was only commenting on the corporate campus idea which was posted on the board. other utilizations will likely be better. there are areas north of i-10 which sbisd can use for a new stadium without interfering with reservoirs (eg britmoore).

If they've got a good land planner, sure.

Use of land along Britmoore would still remove private property with a highest and best non-residential use from the tax rolls. Free land is better land.

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in the enclave-eldridge corridor sueba has built away from the class b and c apartments that are housed next to the village school.

I used to live on Whittington down the street from the Village School. I HATED that school with a passion because they had all this land yet they would NEVER build a parking lot so that people coming to one of their upteen jillion evening assemblies could park somewhere other than on the street blocking traffic. Same goes when school let out in the afternoon all the parents would block traffic clear down the street waiting to pick up little Sally or Junior.

That school was a bad neighbor.

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Darrell Tully Stadium is a 1.2 million dollar stadium. The cost of demolishing the stadium, rebuilding a new stadium, buying new land of (which would be expensive if you buy from the reservoir or another school district) would have a cost at least approaching 2 million dollars if not more. Any developer hoping to invest in the land would have to pay over 2 million dollars to purchase the land from the school district in order to compensate for the expense of this project. Under your plan this land will cost millions of dollars to purchase.

The area is of a lower income, the population investing in the area don't have much money, the demand for the land would be low for this reason. Making it less likely a developer will be willing to invest over 2 million dollars only;y to purchase land in a low-income area.

This area of land is only a few city blocks. The tax income from the residential/commercial development of a few city blocks that would be received by the school district would take years to approach the costs of tearing down and rebuilding the stadium.

So the cost of the project would not be worth the benefit.

I will say this though...they need to replace the AstroTurf with real grass, because the AstroTurf is way too rough for the kids to play on.

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Darrell Tully Stadium is a 1.2 million dollar stadium. The cost of demolishing the stadium, rebuilding a new stadium, buying new land of (which would be expensive if you buy from the reservoir or another school district) would have a cost at least approaching 2 million dollars if not more. Any developer hoping to invest in the land would have to pay over 2 million dollars to purchase the land from the school district in order to compensate for the expense of this project. Under your plan this land will cost millions of dollars to purchase.

The area is of a lower income, the population investing in the area don't have much money, the demand for the land would be low for this reason. Making it less likely a developer will be willing to invest over 2 million dollars only;y to purchase land in a low-income area.

This area of land is only a few city blocks. The tax income from the residential/commercial development of a few city blocks that would be received by the school district would take years to approach the costs of tearing down and rebuilding the stadium.

So the cost of the project would not be worth the benefit.

I will say this though...they need to replace the AstroTurf with real grass, because the AstroTurf is way too rough for the kids to play on.

The City of Houston would likely be more than willing to sell or lease SBISD a portion of the George Bush Park that is within the Barker Reservoir. They may even do so at a steeply discounted price. Government-to-government sales often work out that way. After all, the City stands to gain from all the taxable value that would be created by putting the Tully tract back into private ownership. And besides, most of George Bush Park is underutilized.

And the revenues from sale of the 2.03-million-square-foot (46.6-acre) tract, which is hardly "a few city blocks", if the price ends up being ONLY $4 per square foot, would be $8.1 million, with annual income from property taxes of over $132k (just for the land, not counting what would be built on it). I think that this is extremely conservative, and that the sale price could very easily be double that amount. If you add the immediate proceeds to the present value of the tax revenue in perpetuity at 5% discount rate, the conservative estimate of present value of the benefit to the school district is in excess of $10 million. ...and that's assuming that nothing adding to taxable value is ever developed on the site in the future.

As far as your negative assessment of demographics, you must be smoking something. ...hopefully not Plastic's sausage. The growing number of households within a five-mile radius of Tully Stadium are smaller and wealthier than typical households within the Houston-Baytown-Sugar Land MSA. The population is by far better educated, is older than most, tends to be employed in white-collar occupations, and has a disproportionate tendency to be self-employed and work from home rather than commute. On top of all that, the median value of owner-occupied homes is 46% higher than the Houston MSA median.

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The City of Houston would likely be more than willing to sell or lease SBISD a portion of the George Bush Park that is within the Barker Reservoir. They may even do so at a steeply discounted price. Government-to-government sales often work out that way. After all, the City stands to gain from all the taxable value that would be created by putting the Tully tract back into private ownership. And besides, most of George Bush Park is underutilized.

And the revenues from sale of the 2.03-million-square-foot (46.6-acre) tract, which is hardly "a few city blocks", if the price ends up being ONLY $4 per square foot, would be $8.1 million, with annual income from property taxes of over $132k (just for the land, not counting what would be built on it). I think that this is extremely conservative, and that the sale price could very easily be double that amount. If you add the immediate proceeds to the present value of the tax revenue in perpetuity at 5% discount rate, the conservative estimate of present value of the benefit to the school district is in excess of $10 million. ...and that's assuming that nothing adding to taxable value is ever developed on the site in the future.

As far as your negative assessment of demographics, you must be smoking something. ...hopefully not Plastic's sausage. The growing number of households within a five-mile radius of Tully Stadium are smaller and wealthier than typical households within the Houston-Baytown-Sugar Land MSA. The population is by far better educated, is older than most, tends to be employed in white-collar occupations, and has a disproportionate tendency to be self-employed and work from home rather than commute. On top of all that, the median value of owner-occupied homes is 46% higher than the Houston MSA median.

The City of Houston would absolutely be willing to sell George Bush Park, especially since it is owned by Harris County. Hell, I'd be willing to sell it, too. Tell SBISD to call me.

As for this GREAT deal that SBISD gets for selling the property, your numbers don't exactly spell "great deal". Spring Branch currently has a paid for facility in an accessible location that is considered one of the more beautiful high school stadiums in the state. Cy-Fair just spent $80 million to build a new complex. Conroe is spending $35 million. Spring Branch cannot be expected to build an inferior facility several miles outside of their district boundaries (SBISD's eastern boundary is LOOP 610!) just so some money grubbing developers can have an address in the Energy Corridor. The selling price would necessarily need to exceed the cost of new land, new construction, sufficiently upgraded to overcome the inevitable harsh reaction from SBISD taxpayers and voters for demolishing their jewel of a stadium, and still have money left over.

It is an absolute certainty that neither the Spring Branch school board members, nor the parents are interested in moving a well known and centrally located facility INSIDE their district boundaries to a far flung, hard to reach location, just for a couple of bucks. I realize that, at your age, it may be hard to understand why these parents and educators do not understand your "higher and better use" logic. But, they don't...or more accurately, they will refuse to. And frankly, you haven't even thrown out numbers good enough to make anyone even listen.

Moreover, high school stadia tend not to be technically complicated, and could be built so as not to be affected by floods except to the extent that they would need to be washed down after such an event.

BTW, where did you get this idea? You clearly have not been to a new high school stadium lately. Talk to a few architects and get back to me. Fact is, you could never permit a new stadium to be built in a flood plain, much less a resevoir. This is a building, not a golf course.

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The City of Houston would absolutely be willing to sell George Bush Park, especially since it is owned by Harris County. Hell, I'd be willing to sell it, too. Tell SBISD to call me.

As for this GREAT deal that SBISD gets for selling the property, your numbers don't exactly spell "great deal". Spring Branch currently has a paid for facility in an accessible location that is considered one of the more beautiful high school stadiums in the state. Cy-Fair just spent $80 million to build a new complex. Conroe is spending $35 million. Spring Branch cannot be expected to build an inferior facility several miles outside of their district boundaries (SBISD's eastern boundary is LOOP 610!) just so some money grubbing developers can have an address in the Energy Corridor. The selling price would necessarily need to exceed the cost of new land, new construction, sufficiently upgraded to overcome the inevitable harsh reaction from SBISD taxpayers and voters for demolishing their jewel of a stadium, and still have money left over.

It is an absolute certainty that neither the Spring Branch school board members, nor the parents are interested in moving a well known and centrally located facility INSIDE their district boundaries to a far flung, hard to reach location, just for a couple of bucks. I realize that, at your age, it may be hard to understand why these parents and educators do not understand your "higher and better use" logic. But, they don't...or more accurately, they will refuse to. And frankly, you haven't even thrown out numbers good enough to make anyone even listen.

It is about three miles west to the Barker Reservoir/George Bush Park and about 1 1/4 miles north to Addicks. Not too far, really. I have to admit that I was caught off guard with George Bush Park being a County facility, considering that it is within the city limits of Houston, but it appears that you are correct. That fact changes nothing, however, since Harris County is also a taxing entity with jurisdiction over this area that has something to gain from such a deal. And if the County passes it up, the City could always permit development of lands leased for Cullen Park from the Corps of Engineers. I don't suspect that they'd be likely to use their veto power, if there is any, so long as the local political players are in agreement.

SPISD doesn't have to match the excessive spending of Cy-Fair or Conroe. I suppose that that is their perogative, as the use of the proceeds from the sale of the Tully lands would permit them some flexibility in budgetary matters. However, if all they were to do is build replacement facilities, I'd expect that they'd come out ahead.

The taxpayers may initially balk at the idea, true, but would they balk at a lower tax rate or at the prospect of a higher expenditure per student? Honestly, I doubt it. And meanwhile, the money-grubbing developers are just being set up to be taxed (never mind their contribution to the regional economy). Commercial development is what every taxing entity and the residents of the respective jurisdictions desire most. You know that, Red. In fact, I think it was you who introduced me to that concept.

I suppose that you are correct that my numbers come with a high degree of uncertainty. That's why I low-balled them. I think that there's much more value to be had, frankly, but am hesitant to stick my neck out without better data to back me up.

BTW, where did you get this idea? You clearly have not been to a new high school stadium lately. Talk to a few architects and get back to me. Fact is, you could never permit a new stadium to be built in a flood plain, much less a resevoir. This is a building, not a golf course.

Again, you're thinking of these grandiose stadia the likes of which Cy-Fair evidently thinks that they can't do without. I'm talking about comparatively low-tech replacement facilities. If SBISD wants to upgrade beyond that, well that's up to them. Talk to a few *good* professional architects. There is always a way around these little hassles.

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