Citizens National Bank At 402 Main St.

[C2H]

My wife and I had dinner at the Spindletop while I was in Houston July 28-30, 2007.

I guess some people scream panic when black folks dominate an entertainment area.

This is the truest statement that alot of forumers on here often try to avoid saying. I notice when people of color come and dominate an aera, people say the place has been overun by thugs!

Sorry to play the racecard here but many know this to be true.

[ToolMan]

I have to disagree to an extent above the two posts above me. Downtown "WAS" diverse with people only looking for a good time. Now there are bars closing because of shootings - MBar. I thought a heard a few gunshots this weekend and asked my neighbor about it...he said he heard some too.

Turn down the bass on the car stereo, quit driving in circles, and quit hanging out in parking lots. And yes, I realize white kids were doing this on the Richmond strip back in the 90

[MetroMogul]

I'm just going to have to assume some of you all don't get out much.

First of all; I'm going to address the noise issue. Most of the new loft developments are in and around the north and eastern edges of downtown. There is frequent train traffic in those areas. You mean to tell me that vibrations and airhorns from trains are less offensive than the noise from actual patrons of the few remaining clubs and bars downtown? Come on, it's downtown, like someone said; if you want quiet, move to the Woodlands. Even if the clubs do move out and something else is developed in their place, you're still going to have a noise factor involved, particularly if you want a 24 hour living/mingling area as many are dreaming about instead of the current clubs. This is why this city is so behind on so many levels; you want a certain amenity and the benefits, but at the same time want none of the inconveniences it may bring. I remember many years ago right after the rail was built and DT really took off, people couldn't say enough nice things about the club scene. NOW, it's a problem, um, okay.

Second; downtown is not the place to be anymore. It's dead. When my cousin and I used to go back in the golden days of 2004 and 2005, there was a huge crowd from Wednesday on. It was always racially mixed on the weekends, though, at this point blacks were in the minority. They only frequented two bars that I can remember; Suede and Club Glo, and to a much lesser extent M Bar. Now, here's something else I wanted to touch on, this whole "they don't play our type of music anymore" crap. It's no secret now that

Grasshopper is black and young, but in 2004, it was mostly white and hispanic and guess what; they played the same music then as they do now, hip to the hip hop and you don't stop! Crazy I know, white people liking stuff us blacks like, but it's true.

Third; the whole "thugs" issue. I know you guys are trying your DARNDEST to stay PC, but come on, you can't fool ol' Jason. Just like

northbeaumont's "African-American rigged" comment, I see right through the text. I've gone downtown alot, and hey, maybe it's because I was intoxicated and somehow temporarily blinded, but I didn't see any white people who would fit any sort of "thug" description. Like I said, maybe I missed them, but I can only go by what I saw. So, who are these "thugs" we're talking about, hmmm? And let me make this clear for you, downtown does not have any thugs frequenting those clubs on a regular basis. Real thugs, they go to places where they can still wear a white tee shirt and jean shorts and be admitted with no problem. Places far away from the serene downtown scene, places you'd wet your Ralph Lauren khakis if you even passed by.

Fourth; parking lot pimping. Um, WHERE?! Hell, I wish I stumbled upon some of that! Sounds much more fun than anything going on downtown. Let ask you all something; you guys ever been into a predominantly African-American club? Of course not, silly me. Let me tell you why we mill around before we go into one, if at all. There's an internal dispute between black men and women. You see, black women are perfectly content with dancing with each other now while we feed them drinks. Is that worth $20 and up? That's the decision we're making when we're "loitering." Downtown is so bad now, you really have to think before you just spend your hard earned money. Sorry if that bothers or frightens you.

Fifth; the violence. Boy oh boy, let me explain. Before the rail, downtown was a wasteland so no one was there. Then the rail came, then the clubs and bars and of course for a time, the people. When people come into an area, crime increases. Just a natural law, sorry to say. And for all of the people going in and out of downtown in these past few years, I think the crime rate is relatively low. But that's just me thinking outside the box. If some of you wish to believe that Main St. is Sarajevo, be my guests.

Sixth and last (like the Wards); Midtown. Hey, guys, Midtown is really not popping like you'd think. Smith Street is, yes, that's nice and I commend it for that. But hey, you know that other, darker part of Midtown, like around San Jacinto and Fannin? Yeah, that's midtown too. And guess what? *Pulls you close and whispers in your ear* There's clubs over on dem dere streets, and whoo wee, they ain't doing too well partner. You know XO Bar, Red Star, Rich's, they've all seen better days.

You know what's funny. The only places I know that have been consistent with clientale over the last several years are semi hole in the wall spots where "thugs" hang out. I'm talking Metropolis, Club Butta, Candy Shop, and um, Connections. That just goes to show you that black people, even those thugs in are midst, are not the harbingers or club and bar death. But hey, maybe I'M the crazy one.

[The New Juniper]

I am new to this thread and haven't had the luxury of reading the entire thing. So, i apologize if i repeat something here. But to me, the downtown club issue has nothing to do with black/white. It has everything to do with people feeling safe. if for some reason the blacks and whites feel like they cannot hang out in the same clubs, there is more than enough room and club space for everyone to have a good time.

No race has cornered the market on the criminal element. I would guess you have an equal chance of getting mugged by a black, white or mexican. The problem is not who is committing the crime, the problem is that the crime is being committed.

If i am white, do i feel any safer knowing the potential rapist around the corner is white also? Of course not.

Get the criminals out of downtown. Put more lights. Put more cops. Everything else is rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic.

[N Judah]

Deck chairs on the Titanic? Is that what downtown Houston has turned into? Or is it just another "phase" like we've come to expect from Houston?

[musicman]

i will be a hater......pete's dancing marlin has closed.....seems their employess weren't informed of the closure. downtown is sure is DOWN. this was one of the few original businesses left.

Edited September 8, 2007 by musicman

[Jax]

I also noticed that latin american restaurant across from the Rice Hotel on main was closed... or possibly being renovated.

Since when did Pete's close? It seemed to be open last week...

Edited September 8, 2007 by Jax

[musicman]

I also noticed that latin american restaurant across from the Rice Hotel on main was closed... or possibly being renovated.

Since when did Pete's close? It seemed to be open last week...

the cuban place was already closed. pete's had a sign labor day saying they were closed for 3 days.....employees weren't told a thing.....they went back....and well....it isn't reopening. it was one of maybe two restuarnts that was still open since the rail.....mia bella hang in there!!!!!!!

EDIT: i biked downttown tonight....VERY ghetto.

Edited September 8, 2007 by musicman

[Jax]

I like Mia Bella and it never seems to be empty. Pete's did though...

I was downtown the Saturday night of the labor day weekend at Shay McElroy's, and it seemed like there were lots of people around. I was sitting outside, and there were actually people walking on the sidewalk from 10 pm until about 2 am when I went home. The later it was, the more crowded it seemed to get. So downtown is not completely down. I hope things get better...

[musicman]

I like Mia Bella and it never seems to be empty. Pete's did though...

I was downtown the Saturday night of the labor day weekend at Shay McElroy's, and it seemed like there were lots of people around. I was sitting outside, and there were actually people walking on the sidewalk from 10 pm until about 2 am when I went home. The later it was, the more crowded it seemed to get. So downtown is not completely down. I hope things get better...

i like mia bella too.....but nearby it is hood. when i rode my bike on main and was smelling BO...that's not a good sign.

[WesternGulf]

i will be a hater......pete's dancing marlin has closed.....seems their employess weren't informed of the closure. downtown is sure is DOWN. this was one of the few original businesses left.

I admit I have not been to this place in a couple of months but that is some shocking news. They easily beat the Aquarium as far as seafood. It really does seem like downtown is re-inventing itself every few years for better or worse.

[The Great Hizzy!]

Until you have an actual neighborhood where a larger percentage of people invest in residential properties, you're going to have a trendy, phase-in/phase-out type of place. DT IS changing--again--and it may take a year or two (or three) to see what it becomes. But if you want something a little more stable, more enduring, it'll require a surplus of people who actually LIVE there.

[Jax]

I keep forgetting that the Metro has only been around for 2 years (is that right). It's such a short time. Things change fast here!

Were there any restaurants on Main before the rail?

[musicman]

I keep forgetting that the Metro has only been around for 2 years (is that right). It's such a short time. Things change fast here!

the LRT opened in 2004 so we're approaching the 4 yr stage.

[sevfiv]

i will be a hater......pete's dancing marlin has closed.....seems their employess weren't informed of the closure. downtown is sure is DOWN. this was one of the few original businesses left.

i overheard that thursday from the folks at Warren's. yeah - no employees knew apparently

[Ethanra]

Yeah, the clubs DT don't have a thug element? Shooting. Individuals wonder why people stop going to the clubs DT and hang out at other areas. This is also why the city is trying to close the clubs down and only allow upscale bars and restraunts to open/ stay open DT. It will continue to make it into a quality livable neighborhood. Why would someone want to buy a $300,000+ condo a couple blocks from this nonsense that is full of thugs?

Edited September 9, 2007 by Ethanra

[VicMan]

Ethanra: More details are needed. Did the man talk to the killer? Did they get into an argument?

Also, a poster named Apu said: "

You can put a club in downtown, mid-town, put a silk suit on the doorguy/bouncer, have a fancy dress code, make sure to let in mostly girls, or whatever, but at the end, any club no matter how classy, is going to attract thugs and the underworld. That's why they're popular."

So, do you agree with Apu's statements?

Edited September 9, 2007 by VicMan

[jfre81]

Why would someone want to buy a $300,000+ condo a couple blocks from this nonsense that is full of thugs?

They already do this in places like Uptown and Meyerland (both a stone's throw away from Gulfton) so why not?

[Guest Marty]

Yeah, the clubs DT don't have a thug element? Shooting. Individuals wonder why people stop going to the clubs DT and hang out at other areas. This is also why the city is trying to close the clubs down and only allow upscale bars and restraunts to open/ stay open DT. It will continue to make it into a quality livable neighborhood. Why would someone want to buy a $300,000+ condo a couple blocks from this nonsense that is full of thugs?

That's why I stopped going to clubs and bars, Just making eye contact with someone can get you shot these days.

[Jax]

I was downtown again on Saturday night from 10 to 12 and it was far from dead. The people who came along with me were all amazed and said they had never seen downtown so active, even during regular business hours. I may post some photos later. The quality isn't great but I snapped a few when I was walking around.

The bad news was that I got a $55 parking ticket for parking in an area where the no parking sign wasn't clearly visible. I saw a sign that said "metered parking 9-5" and figured it was okay since it was late. If I had gone to the meter, I would have seen the sign posted on the meter that said no parking. Apparently I wasn't the only one. The cop told me every 5 minutes another guy parks there and gets a ticket. And he said it wasn't his job to tell them not to park there, just to give out the tickets.

=(

[Ethanra]

They already do this in places like Uptown and Meyerland (both a stone's throw away from Gulfton) so why not?

Uptown is a little farther then a stone's throw away from Gulfton. In DT, the clubs are two or three blocks away........

[Jax]

Actually, some of the clubs are on the same blocks as the lofts/condos, right?

It kinda sucks for the people living in those places, when pretty much all there is on their block is clubs. They live in a great walkable neighborhood but aside from a few restaurants the only thing they can walk to is clubs. That's why downtown really needs to mix it up a bit with some nice retail. Hopefully the Pavillions will help out with that. Every other city can make retail successful downtown, so why not Houston?

I know the downtown population is small, but it seems to me that there are enough people living close to downtown to make it work. Instead of driving all the way to the Galleria, I'm sure people from Neartown/Montrose/Midtown/East End/heights would go downtown if retail actually existed downtown. Downtown is actually closer and more convenient for a lot of these people than the Galleria.

It's 5 miles from where I live to the Galleria, but it's only 2.5 miles to downtown.

[Poppahop]

Instead of driving all the way to the Galleria, I'm sure people from Neartown/Montrose/Midtown/East End/heights would go downtown if retail actually existed downtown.

People from those neighborhoods rarely go to the Galleria. In the nine years I most recently lived in the Museum District, I went to the Galleria maybe twice, both times mainly just to take a walk. Just about everybody I am friends with feels the same. There's no real need to go there.

As for the shootings, wherever there are drunks plus guns, that's gonna happen.

DT is not Dodge City by any means, it's just that every shooting down there gets tons of attention. I am sure that the Club Next incident was not the only incident in H-Town that night.

[RedScare]

Just to be clear, this club is not in Downtown proper. It is in the warehouse district on the other side of 59.

[Jax]

The only place I know in the east end is "Warehouse Live" the music venue. Is that what you are talking about, or is there more to that part of town than I know?

I thought we were talking about Main Street and surrounding areas. At least that's what most people refer to when they mention clubs downtown. Is the other side of the 59 even "downtown"?

[Ethanra]

Is the other side of the 59 even "downtown"?

I think DT ends at 59, so no. As far as retail, I think it will work. Their is some, and even a department store that works DT. Their is more DT retail here then some other large city DT's that are close to us. To create a central area, like DT, for people to go shopping is going to be difficult, because their is plenty of other established options within a couple miles. Their is the village, River Oaks shopping center, highland village etc... Thies places not only have higher-end stuff but their is avrg. shopping there as well, for example the Gap... HP is the "kick in the butt" DT needs and I think DT will have its fair share of retail before we know it, but not as much as we would like because of the other popular areas that are close...

[musicman]

The bad news was that I got a $55 parking ticket for parking in an area where the no parking sign wasn't clearly visible. I saw a sign that said "metered parking 9-5" and figured it was okay since it was late. If I had gone to the meter, I would have seen the sign posted on the meter that said no parking. Apparently I wasn't the only one. The cop told me every 5 minutes another guy parks there and gets a ticket. And he said it wasn't his job to tell them not to park there, just to give out the tickets.

=(

how's that LRT workin for ya?

[Jax]

Which larger cities are you thinking of with less retail downtown? LA maybe, but what else? The only cities bigger than Houston are Chicago, NY, and LA right? Maybe LA has less downtown shopping options (I don't know LA well) but the other two definitely have more, as well as smaller cities like Austin.

A friend of mine told me yesterday that there is more to do in downtown Dallas than Houston, but I've never been there myself to compare. He said the shopping options downtown were good and that there were more people around in the day, while Houston had more people around at night (at least on Saturday night when we were there).

[Jax]

how's that LRT workin for ya?

Hahahaha!

I knew you were going to say that, musicman. I even started to write a little comment in my post explaining why I was not taking the light rail but then I thought, nah, nobody is really going to ask that.

if you must know every little detail, I was in the heights at an art gallery opening (three of my photos are at the Houstonist photo show at the M2 Gallery), and I was driving with a bunch of my grad student friends (only one of them has a car). So rather than driving to my apartment and having my friends meet me there, and then walking to the light rail and taking the rail downtown, I just got him to follow me downtown and we parked and went to a bar. None of the people I was with had ever been downtown at night before. One of them had gone during the day and vowed there was no reason to ever return. I wanted to show them some of the places that I like downtown (Shay McElroys, Flying Saucer) that are not as empty as main street square on a sunday morning. They were all impressed.

So no, the LRT is not working well for me when I go to the Heights, or when I travel between the Heights and Downtown. That's why I have a car. If the rail ran between the Heights and Downtown, there would have been no question - I would have taken it. Everybody decided at the end of the night to take the rail downtown next time, as long as we aren't going there from the Heights.

Do I really need to explain myself every time I mention that I drive somewhere? Don't you know Houston well enough to understand that the public transit isn't convenient in every part of the city? It only really works if I'm going between the Medical Center / Rice / Museum District and downtown. Hopefully in the future, I will be able to go more places without having to drive.

Edited September 10, 2007 by Jax

[musicman]

They already do this in places like Uptown and Meyerland (both a stone's throw away from Gulfton) so why not?

LOL.when the cotton exchange went ghetto (and the other club), the clientele also started hitting les givrals on congress. the owners of les givrals were opening in the evenings giving the downtown patrons another food option. well the new clientele started trashing the place nightly, throwing food, etc. they decided not to open at nights because of this.

Hahahaha!I knew you were going to say that, musicman. I even started to write a little comment in my post explaining why I was not taking the light rail but then I thought, nah, nobody is really going to ask that.Do I really need to explain myself every time I mention that I drive somewhere?

of course not. i like to joke. no harm intended. we looked for you at the show sat but we went in and left quickly.