METRORail On FM 1960

[SpringTX]

People. If you are looking for door to door convenience, you are not going to find that using any type of public transport. Stay in your cars for that one.

Amen to that. Mass transit was good in the 19th century. Today it's good for air travel.

[feufoma]

Amen to that. Mass transit was good in the 19th century. Today it's good for air travel.

Do you guys travel much??? If you do I don't think you'd have such a flippant attitude about transit. Some, limited, inconvenience aside: mass transit can be an exceptionally easy way to get around a city or a country (e.g., the Deutsche Bahn ICE trains; France's TGV; pretty much any city of merit in Europe and now in Asia).

Yes, air travel is still a great way to travel far distances in relatively short time periods. However, if one lives in a city with good rail transit they just go down to the Bahnhof for instance (there's usually several in a large city) and there are numerous trains going to other cities at all times of the day and night. Ditto for inner city travel. No, it's not "door to door convenience" but it's convenient all the same. It just takes some getting used to (and it's a great way to keep the weight off and get some exercise). But the (largely American) attitude to "just stay in your car" is so untenable and myopic. (Another example of our perceived "superiority" over other countries and cultures to really be a bunch of drivel.) I'd encourage all of you to travel (internationally) if you don't already. I think that some of your attitudes toward mass transit and the positive impact it can have on a city (or a country) would definitely change for the better.

[Pumapayam]

I think that some of your attitudes toward mass transit and the positive impact it can have on a city (or a country) would definitely change for the better.

I just don't think 1960 is ready for new Urbanization. They are happy being the older version of Katy.

[Houston1stWordOnTheMoon]

Do you guys travel much??? If you do I don't think you'd have such a flippant attitude about transit. Some, limited, inconvenience aside: mass transit can be an exceptionally easy way to get around a city or a country (e.g., the Deutsche Bahn ICE trains; France's TGV; pretty much any city of merit in Europe and now in Asia).

Yes, air travel is still a great way to travel far distances in relatively short time periods. However, if one lives in a city with good rail transit they just go down to the Bahnhof for instance (there's usually several in a large city) and there are numerous trains going to other cities at all times of the day and night. Ditto for inner city travel. No, it's not "door to door convenience" but it's convenient all the same. It just takes some getting used to (and it's a great way to keep the weight off and get some exercise). But the (largely American) attitude to "just stay in your car" is so untenable and myopic. (Another example of our perceived "superiority" over other countries and cultures to really be a bunch of drivel.) I'd encourage all of you to travel (internationally) if you don't already. I think that some of your attitudes toward mass transit and the positive impact it can have on a city (or a country) would definitely change for the better.

Hillarious from start to finish

I just don't think 1960 is ready for new Urbanization. They are happy being the older version of Katy.

And the laughter continues

[DaTrain]

People. If you are looking for door to door convenience, you are not going to find that using any type of public transport. Stay in your cars for that one.

True story: There is no such thing as door-to-door convenience in Houston. Even if we have the main Street Metrorail line, count up how many minutes it tales to walk from a LRT station across 2/3 of a massive parking lot to Reliant Stadium itself. Same thing goes for HCCS Central (cross four city streets to campus, huh??!), Fannin South (the park and ride obviously), and much of Downtown Houston (outside the immediate Main Street Corridor). Now THAT is NOT door-to-door convenience; but if you're just being too lazy to use your legs in a sprawl-influenced small piece of the city...

Now Texas Medical Center has that advantage of door-to-door because its built up AGAINST Fannin Street with at least THREE LRT stations; same thing for Hermann park, and the UH Downtown. Now THAT IS door to door convenience because you can just get off METRORail, just cross the street, walk RIGHT INTO the buiding without the suburban sized Black Top to hold you back.

[musicman]

Now Texas Medical Center has that advantage of door-to-door because its built up AGAINST Fannin Street with at least THREE LRT stations; same thing for Hermann park, and the UH Downtown. Now THAT IS door to door convenience because you can just get off METRORail, just cross the street, walk RIGHT INTO the buiding without the suburban sized Black Top to hold you back.

That is assuming you work on Fannin. I was on Holcombe recently to visit a hospitalized friend and if i would have ridden the train it would have been a long walk. definitely not door to door. I will say that i did see a trolley as i was driving off. I believe it said TMC circulator so this may feed from the rail.

[ricco67]

That is assuming you work on Fannin. I was on Holcombe recently to visit a hospitalized friend and if i would have ridden the train it would have been a long walk. definitely not door to door. I will say that i did see a trolley as i was driving off. I believe it said TMC circulator so this may feed from the rail.

you're right it does feed into the rail. I was there yesterday and the walking over to The Baylor building by the Mouse House (which is just as far as MD Anderson, where I assumed you went to), and it wasn't that bad of a walk at all. I think it just depends on what all you're willing to walk to.

[musicman]

you're right it does feed into the rail. I was there yesterday and the walking over to The Baylor building by the Mouse House (which is just as far as MD Anderson, where I assumed you went to), and it wasn't that bad of a walk at all. I think it just depends on what all you're willing to walk to.

I was a little rushed and drove so it was just easier to park nearby. I do bike and skate thru the med center fairly regularly. Best way to see the twin waterwalls.

[CALMSP]

i think its a great idea...................however, certain conditions do apply...................

1. Run the 1960 line from Lake Houston all the way to 249 (Willowbrook Mall)

2. Line must be either elevated or underground and must run through IAH, which would have lines that connect to downtown.

[houstonmacbro]

If you put light rail on 1960 i think you would see more train/car collisions than the Main street line.

How about an elevated monorail like at Disney.

[cnote]

Can somone please explain the difference between 1960 and the Richmond/Westheimer corridor from DT to the Beltway, because I really don't see it...It seems to me that any argument against rail on 1960 would apply to Richmond as well. Also, on 1960, there are still plenty of lots to build stations. I certainly don't think a Nuke is any more warranted in either location. Also, the stip mall sprawl didn't stop at 1960, 2920 is the new 1960...out west it will probably be Fry Rd.

This is not to say I think rail on 1960 is a good idea becuase I am just not sure anyone would use it or want it...but it is not so laughable that everyone should be so dismissive of the OP...

[lockmat]

Can somone please explain the difference between 1960 and the Richmond/Westheimer corridor from DT to the Beltway, because I really don't see it...It seems to me that any argument against rail on 1960 would apply to Richmond as well. Also, on 1960, there are still plenty of lots to build stations. I certainly don't think a Nuke is any more warranted in either location. Also, the stip mall sprawl didn't stop at 1960, 2920 is the new 1960...out west it will probably be Fry Rd.

This is not to say I think rail on 1960 is a good idea becuase I am just not sure anyone would use it or want it...but it is not so laughable that everyone should be so dismissive of the OP...

density potential?

[cnote]

seems to me that either place has the same amount of "potential"...but I think you are on to something in that everyone here is being a little harder on 1960 because it is further out, but aesthetically it is no different. But as it stands, is Richmond substantially more dense than 1960 from 45 to 249?

[TheNiche]

Can somone please explain the difference between 1960 and the Richmond/Westheimer corridor from DT to the Beltway, because I really don't see it...It seems to me that any argument against rail on 1960 would apply to Richmond as well. Also, on 1960, there are still plenty of lots to build stations. I certainly don't think a Nuke is any more warranted in either location. Also, the stip mall sprawl didn't stop at 1960, 2920 is the new 1960...out west it will probably be Fry Rd.

This is not to say I think rail on 1960 is a good idea becuase I am just not sure anyone would use it or want it...but it is not so laughable that everyone should be so dismissive of the OP...

1960 has less employment along it than does Westheimer or Richmond. It lacks a Houston Galleria, it lacks all the office buildings and condos in that area, it lacks a Greenway Plaza, and it lacks an easy connection to Downtown Houston or the Texas Medical Center.

There are parts of Westheimer and Richmond that are somewhat similar to 1960 aesthetically, but those are also the parts of Westheimer or Richmond that don't do so much for ridership.

[cnote]

1960 has less employment along it than does Westheimer or Richmond. It lacks a Houston Galleria, it lacks all the office buildings and condos in that area, it lacks a Greenway Plaza, and it lacks an easy connection to Downtown Houston or the Texas Medical Center.

There are parts of Westheimer and Richmond that are somewhat similar to 1960 aesthetically, but those are also the parts of Westheimer or Richmond that don't do so much for ridership.

I was speaking more aesthetically but...I will give you Greenway Plaza and the Galleria, but 1960 has many low rise office complexes all along the stretch, and has the HP offices near 249. If it connected to the airport and a line to greenspoint and downtown, I don't think it would be such a stretch. Like I said, I don't think rail is a good idea, maybe if it connects to many other rail lines that need to be built first. But aesthetically, there are many other roads in Houston that are just as ugly...including Richmond and Westheimer between 610 and the Beltway. The problem with 1960 is that many people who work on it live on it as well, and a rail line does not provide enough benefit to get them out of their cars.

Do you think people will live downtown and ride the rail to Greenway Plaza? Will they live in the Ghetto apartment complexes on Richmond and do the same? Who will ride this rail?

I guess I just don't find the concept as obscenely outragious as everyone else who responded to the OP...he didn't say a timetable...

EDIT: I should disclose that I think an east west rail line should have gone through DT from the convention center (even out east to the cruise ship terminal!!!) out to the Galleria and Westchase...but I realize the engineering would be a pain on that one...

[ricco67]

1960 has less employment along it than does Westheimer or Richmond. It lacks a Houston Galleria, it lacks all the office buildings and condos in that area, it lacks a Greenway Plaza, and it lacks an easy connection to Downtown Houston or the Texas Medical Center.

There are parts of Westheimer and Richmond that are somewhat similar to 1960 aesthetically, but those are also the parts of Westheimer or Richmond that don't do so much for ridership.

Since 1960 lacks a "Galleria" or "Greenway plaza", it does not deserve a rail line? No employment along 1960? Gee, I wonder where all those people during rush hour are going to.

Having lived in the area (fallbrook/Grant) and having to deal with all the issues that were there, I would have to disagree with you. Willowbrook mall is adjacent to a number of other shopping centers and makes traffic quite painful, and yes it can be considered a major employment center, its just not the high paying jobs you think rail should support. Now I will grant you that it is nothing compared to the Galleria, but FEW places can be LIKE the galleria, just because they aren't high end, doesn't mean that you should dismiss the numbers so readily. The traffic in the area is increasing by leaps and bounds (to the point TXDot is building an UNDERPASS at 1960 Kuykendahl) and Houston can actually be AHEAD of the traffic congestion curve.

Rail is viable in the area if it is designed properly with the proper connections, with proper stations/parking at certain stations. Will it be better if 290 had a line? yes, but I believe that it went further onto I-59, it could connect to the airport (via a shuttle) for business travelers AND employees. You can correct me if you don't think that IAH isn't a major employment center as well.

Don't let your Anti-Metro/Rail bias blind you to possibilities.

Is Metro perfect? No. Can they do a better job? Yes.

[TheNiche]

Since 1960 lacks a "Galleria" or "Greenway plaza", it does not deserve a rail line? No employment along 1960? Gee, I wonder where all those people during rush hour are going to.

Having lived in the area (fallbrook/Grant) and having to deal with all the issues that were there, I would have to disagree with you. Willowbrook mall is adjacent to a number of other shopping centers and makes traffic quite painful, and yes it can be considered a major employment center, its just not the high paying jobs you think rail should support. Now I will grant you that it is nothing compared to the Galleria, but FEW places can be LIKE the galleria, just because they aren't high end, doesn't mean that you should dismiss the numbers so readily. The traffic in the area is increasing by leaps and bounds (to the point TXDot is building an UNDERPASS at 1960 Kuykendahl) and Houston can actually be AHEAD of the traffic congestion curve.

Rail is viable in the area if it is designed properly with the proper connections, with proper stations/parking at certain stations. Will it be better if 290 had a line? yes, but I believe that it went further onto I-59, it could connect to the airport (via a shuttle) for business travelers AND employees. You can correct me if you don't think that IAH isn't a major employment center as well.

Don't let your Anti-Metro/Rail bias blind you to possibilities.

Is Metro perfect? No. Can they do a better job? Yes.

So what are the numbers, eh? And what number of them are within a quarter mile of FM 1960, much less the rail platforms?

No, don't even bother saying "I don't know, a whole bunch," because I've done a lot of the work for you. Behold the marvelously low employment density along 1960 as compared to the Richmond/Westheimer corridors.

Rail is not viable in the area not only because jobs are insufficiently concentrated along the route, and not only because the urban form is not greatly conducive to transit, but because linking 1960 in a way as would be necessary to generate meaningful ridership would be tremendously expensive. Even if METRO is going to waste it on poorly-implemented rail somewhere else, it would be extraordinarily easy to conceive of a better use of those funds.

And as for your accusation that I might be tooting a different horn if Willowbrook jobs paid more, that's utterly false. I'd readily advocate a properly-designed light rail route that linked Houston to Pasadena. Pasadena has employment density. Same goes for Sharpstown, Greenspoint, and IAH...but not 1960.

P.S. - I'm not anti-rail, I'm anti-stupid...which inherently encompasses the near-entirety of potential anti-METROness. Rail has its place in the world, and this isn't it.

[cnote]

Rail on Richmond is stupid (now), rail on 1960 is stupid (now)...build rail along the freeways to DT dang it!!!!! let busses connect the interior DT, Uptown, Med Center triangle. Metro has it backwards...

[H-Town Man]

All that light rail on Richmond would do is link up our region's three largest job centers (working with the Main St. line), along with just about every tourist destination in Houston, and run through one of the city's densest areas. No, that doesn't make sense...

[TheNiche]

All that light rail on Richmond would do is link up our region's three largest job centers (working with the Main St. line), along with just about every tourist destination in Houston, and run through one of the city's densest areas. No, that doesn't make sense...

Not the way it is proposed. Elevate it or bury it, but get it the hell out of my way. And if that makes it too costly, then don't do it at all.

[cnote]

All that light rail on Richmond would do is link up our region's three largest job centers (working with the Main St. line), along with just about every tourist destination in Houston, and run through one of the city's densest areas. No, that doesn't make sense...

a bus would be cheaper, and after riding the red line, I don't think it would be any slower...that red line really doesn't move like I thought it would. I think rail makes more sense moving people at high speeds over large distances like our freeway system leading to downtown. Moving people short distances with many stops seems like the defintion of a bus route or even a trolley line.

Edit:: we already have designated ROW running down the middle of every major freeway to boot!

[H-Town Man]

Not the way it is proposed. Elevate it or bury it, but get it the hell out of my way. And if that makes it too costly, then don't do it at all.

Once its built, I'm afraid that it will be you who needs to get out of its way.

a bus would be cheaper, and after riding the red line, I don't think it would be any slower...that red line really doesn't move like I thought it would. I think rail makes more sense moving people at high speeds over large distances like our freeway system leading to downtown. Moving people short distances with many stops seems like the defintion of a bus route or even a trolley line.

Edit:: we already have designated ROW running down the middle of every major freeway to boot!

Everyone who wasn't already opposed to the line thought it was better than a bus when they rode it. Most urban rail systems have many stops.

[TheNiche]

Once its built, I'm afraid that it will be you who needs to get out of its way.

Exactly my point. It diminishes mobility.

Everyone who wasn't already opposed to the line thought it was better than a bus when they rode it. Most urban rail systems have many stops.

Compare our system to Dallas. We have a hell of a lot more average stops per mile. I really wish that they'd offer express TMC-Downtown bus service with no stops since it'd save so much time.

[cnote]

Everyone who wasn't already opposed to the line thought it was better than a bus when they rode it. Most urban rail systems have many stops.

Hmm, so everyone that wasnt against the rail thought it was better than a bus...I wonder if that was because it was cleaner and newer and didn't come with the stigma that bus transportation has...or because the majority of people that weren't against the rail were for it...

I also don't care what most urban rail systems in different cities do, I want what works best for my city. And I think Houston would benefit the most from High Speed transit to move commuters in and out of the city. Basically aiding the existing freeways in doing their job, with busses or trolleys as the secondary infrastructure, maybe even replaced with rail lines eventually if you really want it. I don't think the rail is bad, just not best. If we would have gotten the Olympics maybe it would have been worth it...

[H-Town Man]

I also don't care what most urban rail systems in different cities do, I want what works best for my suburb.

fify

[cnote]

fify

I live in unincorporated Harris County, my suburb is your city before you know it.

If you enjoy paying for rail lines down Main and Richmond..and you think it eases congestion in the areas in which it runs...then I am happy for you! Do you sit awake at night and lament all the tax dollars that are spent building highways from MY suburb to YOUR city? Houston would be so much better if just left the suburbs out of the equation wouldn't it???

Houston and the suburbs are symbiotic..they need each other, they should plan accordingly.

[houstonmacbro]

As someone that lives off 1960 (at Ella) I would love a line that had rapid transit the entire length of 1960 (say Atascocita --or at least Humble-- to the outer edges of 290).

That would be awesome.

[H-Town Man]

If you enjoy paying for rail lines down Main and Richmond..and you think it eases congestion in the areas in which it runs...then I am happy for you! Do you sit awake at night and lament all the tax dollars that are spent building highways from MY suburb to YOUR city? Houston would be so much better if just left the suburbs out of the equation wouldn't it???

Houston and the suburbs are symbiotic..they need each other, they should plan accordingly.

For fifty years we have been paving the inner city with freeways so that people from the suburbs could get in and out. Now we are actually using tax money for something that helps the inner city. Deal with it.

[CDeb]

For fifty years we have been paving the inner city with freeways so that people from the suburbs could get in and out. Now we are actually using tax money for something that helps the inner city. Deal with it.

Your implication that freeways do not help the inner city is narrow minded.

[cnote]

I think the point here is that the rail doesn't help the inner city enough to justify the costs....maybe we just need to give it more time and the rail will lead to new bars and restaurants and office buildings and residential complexes and all the white collar families will leave the suburbs by the thousands and spend millions of dollars on 1,500 square foot brownstones on the rail line and send thier kids to private schools....

Also, the inverse, that commuter rail along the freeways would hurt the inner city is also not true. easier access to the facilities and events downtown and otherwise (Galleria, TMC) would only enhance the ability of white collar suburban families to come downtown and spend money...especially on the weekdays...