Dallas Construction

[houstonfella]

From Dallas Morning News.

New Construction

What will they do with all the empty space? Ahhh, make apartments for the homeless.

[MidtownCoog]

This is what I have been wondering.

It will simply canabalise downtown.

[JasonDFW]

This is what I have been wondering.

It will simply canabalise downtown.

Living here, and watching things progress, I see the exact opposite. In other couple years we'll see who is right.

Jason

[Houston19514]

Living here, and watching things progress, I see the exact opposite. In other couple years we'll see who is right.

Jason

You see downtown canabalising [sic] uptown???

[JasonDFW]

You see downtown canabalising [sic] uptown???

No, what I meant by opposite is I see uptown helping downtown rather than hurting it. Also, 1/3rd of those building the article mentioned were being built were being built downtown not uptown. Also, things like the House, Hunt, One Arts, and the Woodall Deck blur the line between downtown and uptown in a very positive way which I think can potentially do wonders for downtown. Not on its own, but looking at the big picture. Could be wrong, but I've been here since 97 and definitely not seen this type of energy and momentum there.

Jason

[Dallasboi]

If all of the companies downtown decided to relocate to Uptown and Surrounding areas at once What would be the worst thing that could Happen?..........Empty office buildings and no retail,but we will still have the Growing residential base that wouldn't mind driving or walking a half of a mile to uptown or whereever to work party and shop. But from the tourist point of view nothing will look different. They still will see the same Skyscrapers we've always had (magnificent skyline),same urban neighborhoods but even better because it will be full of relocated companies wich will push demand even more and maybe 5 years form no w new companies would again fill up Downtown. So this is actually good news in the worst case scenerio. And we all know that this will never happen so i think we are in a very good position.

[RedScare]

If all of the companies downtown decided to relocate to Uptown and Surrounding areas at once What would be the worst thing that could Happen?..........Empty office buildings and no retail,but we will still have the Growing residential base that wouldn't mind driving or walking a half of a mile to uptown or whereever to work party and shop. But from the tourist point of view nothing will look different. They still will see the same Skyscrapers we've always had (magnificent skyline),same urban neighborhoods but even better because it will be full of relocated companies wich will push demand even more and maybe 5 years form no w new companies would again fill up Downtown. So this is actually good news in the worst case scenerio. And we all know that this will never happen so i think we are in a very good position.

The article stated that no outside companies are relocating. The only movement is downtown firms moving from 20 year old buildings to new ones. How do you figure downtown will fill up with relocated companies?

Empty space is empty space. If developers add 3 million feet of space in an area that has only filled up 2 million feet in 10 years, the vacancy rate can only go up. If downtown tennants are moving to uptown as downtown is trying to revitalize, there will be fewer potential customers for the new stores downtown. The streets will be emptier, and fewer investors will want to open in a downtown that is losing workers.

As for not looking different to tourists, if downtown is dead now, it will have tumbleweeds blowing through it later. Uptown may thrive, but how many hits can downtown take, before it gives up the ghost?

[Dallasboi]

The article stated that no outside companies are relocating. The only movement is downtown firms moving from 20 year old buildings to new ones. How do you figure downtown will fill up with relocated companies?

Empty space is empty space. If developers add 3 million feet of space in an area that has only filled up 2 million feet in 10 years, the vacancy rate can only go up. If downtown tennants are moving to uptown as downtown is trying to revitalize, there will be fewer potential customers for the new stores downtown. The streets will be emptier, and fewer investors will want to open in a downtown that is losing workers.

As for not looking different to tourists, if downtown is dead now, it will have tumbleweeds blowing through it later. Uptown may thrive, but how many hits can downtown take, before it gives up the ghost?

Development happens in waves and I think that we all know that.Look at the 90's here in Dallas....(nothing happened ) All I'm saying is that if we completely hollw out downtown(as you Houstionians would say)it wouldn't look good but we wouldnt be as bad off as it is being portrayed.Because who's to say that 5 or maybe 10 years after we "Hollow " it out it wont become a hot market again and fill up?Then we would have all of the companies that left the 1980's towers for uptown, making uptown thrive, and the new companies that found a new intrest in the central Business districtcausing it to thrive as well.But like I posted earlier...this is the worst case scenerio and the chances of this really happening is very slim.So we are indeed in a good position REDSCARE

[NDtexan]

Development happens in waves and I think that we all know that.Look at the 90's here in Dallas....(nothing happened ) All I'm saying is that if we completely hollw out downtown(as you Houstionians would say)it wouldn't look good but we wouldnt be as bad off as it is being portrayed.Because who's to say that 5 or maybe 10 years after we "Hollow " it out it wont become a hot market again and fill up?Then we would have all of the companies that left the 1980's towers for uptown, making uptown thrive, and the new companies that found a new intrest in the central Business districtcausing it to thrive as well.But like I posted earlier...this is the worst case scenerio and the chances of this really happening is very slim.So we are indeed in a good position REDSCARE

That's a confusing and unlikely theory...what really needs to happen is all the giant companies with HQ in the burbs need to come back to the CBD, im talkin about Exxon, AMR, Southwest, EDS, JCPenney, Kimberly-Clark, TI, and the list could go on forever; unfortunately this is just as unlikely.

[TexasStar]

The article stated that no outside companies are relocating. The only movement is downtown firms moving from 20 year old buildings to new ones. How do you figure downtown will fill up with relocated companies?

Empty space is empty space. If developers add 3 million feet of space in an area that has only filled up 2 million feet in 10 years, the vacancy rate can only go up. If downtown tennants are moving to uptown as downtown is trying to revitalize, there will be fewer potential customers for the new stores downtown. The streets will be emptier, and fewer investors will want to open in a downtown that is losing workers.

As for not looking different to tourists, if downtown is dead now, it will have tumbleweeds blowing through it later. Uptown may thrive, but how many hits can downtown take, before it gives up the ghost?

I'm glad most Texans aren't as pessimistic as you are, RedScare. In the city I was born in, New Orleans, they took that approach for years and as a result they watched Houston, Dallas, and Atlanta leave them in the dust.

Thankfully, Dallas developers are still prone to taking a few chances. I'm also glad that, historically, the optimists seem to outnumber the pessimists in Dallas, in Houston, and all over Texas.

That's why this state is as great as it is.

[houstonfella]

Let 'em build. It will all end up with real low rents for Class A office space ....bottom dollar. Good luck. Houston has learned to build on a reality basis and been better off for it... naturally we have more Fortune 500 companies, taller buildings and a bigger city because of our patience and, grasshopper, we shall prevail. Ouch this will make sense tomorrow because that chardonnay is kicking in ...

Texas Star.. we think alike. and that's an optomtistic thang.... here's to Texas no matter what city

[troyboy]

I'm not from Texas (thank god), but I'm fond of both Dallas and Houston, which is why these which city is better post are so tiresome and mundane. But I will say what I do like about Dallas is that it seems developers are willing to take huge risks here. So opposite from Fort Worth where developers seem cautious of building anything. In the four years,I've been here, I'm amazed at the construction. I'm very optimistic about Dallas's future. This city is changing faster than any city I've seen. And even if I eventually leave Texas, I'll continue to watch it's progress. Dallas is and will simply become the most urbanized city in Texas and I have no doubt that these buildings will fill up as the country continues to take notice.

[Gary]

This city is changing faster than any city I've seen. And even if I eventually leave Texas, I'll continue to watch it's progress. Dallas is and will simply become the most urbanized city in Texas and I have no doubt that these buildings will fill up as the country continues to take notice.

And what do you base these statements on?

[Willy1]

That's a confusing and unlikely theory...what really needs to happen is all the giant companies with HQ in the burbs need to come back to the CBD, im talkin about Exxon, AMR, Southwest, EDS, JCPenney, Kimberly-Clark, TI, and the list could go on forever; unfortunately this is just as unlikely.

AMR was never a Dallas company - AMR headquarters are in Fort Worth and always have been. Southwest won't leave Love Field to build offices downtown.... They'll build near Love if anything at all. Actually, I saw a guy showing off plans for Love Field area inmprovements at lunch last week - wait till those announcements are made! Major changes coming to the Love Field area!!!! EDS was always in Plano, and the campus they built will not be abandoned to move DT... It just wouldn't make sense. The other big campus companies are also unlikely to give up the campus way of life for high rise HQ because it would change the whole culture of their companies and the employees who are used to working in Plano and Richardson are not going to be willing to drive to DT Dallas. Dallas is going to have to attract new businesses to fill those spaces.

However, Dallas is in a pretty good position because DT Dallas is undergoing a makeover right now and it's just started really developing a lot of things that will change the entire tone and atmosphere of DT Dallas. Most of the older vacant buildings are being converted to residential units so the downtown population of Dallas is going to explode in the next year or two as these units come online. Most of the big developements are pre-selling and selling out before construction even begins. Dallas has to build the residential population downtown first, after the people move to DT, then big business will naturally follow... and so will retail and nightlife. DT Dallas is on the verge of major changes. The folks in Houston don't see it, but those of us who are in DT Dallas everyday are just awe-struck by the amount of construction and development going on in both DT Dallas and Uptown. Dallas is doing what Dallas does best - reinventing itself yet again.

[troyboy]

And what do you base these statements on?

What the vast majority of people on this forum base thier statements on...opinion. I say Dallas is changing faster than any city I have ever seen. If you disagree that would be your opinion, since you don't know what cities I've seen. "Dallas is the most urbanized city in Texas". Wiith neighborhoods like Uptown, Oaklawn, Cedars, Mockingbird Station/SMU and a hugely successful and expanding lightrail system, coupled with the fact that I have gone almost two weeks without using my car for anything...I don't see myself being able to do that yet in Houston, Austin, Fort Worth, or San Antonio. Then add the mixed use projects going up everywhere. That's led me to believe in the changing face of urban Dallas, . And if you disagree that would be your opinon too, unless you can prove to me otherwise. My believe that these buildings will fill up is also my opinion, mixed with a little optimism. If you disagree, unless you're equipped with a fortune-telling crystal ball, that would be your opinion also.

[Gary]

What the vast majority of people on this forum base thier statements on...opinion. I say Dallas is changing faster than any city I have ever seen. If you disagree that would be your opinion, since you don't know what cities I've seen. "Dallas is the most urbanized city in Texas". Wiith neighborhoods like Uptown, Oaklawn, Cedars, Mockingbird Station/SMU and a hugely successful and expanding lightrail system, coupled with the fact that I have gone almost two weeks without using my car for anything...I don't see myself being able to do that yet in Houston, Austin, Fort Worth, or San Antonio. Then add the mixed use projects going up everywhere. That's led me to believe in the changing face of urban Dallas, . And if you disagree that would be your opinon too, unless you can prove to me otherwise. My believe that these buildings will fill up is also my opinion, mixed with a little optimism. If you disagree, unless you're equipped with a fortune-telling crystal ball, that would be your opinion also.

While it's nice that you haven't used your car in weeks, that doesn't necessarily mean a more urban area. With Houston's little 7.5 mile rail system, I can go the grocery store, museum, liquor store, church, bars, laundramat, cleaners, fast food joint, restaurants, movie's etc, etc. I do agree that Dallas is making good stride's in it's urbanization, and I also think that Houston's huge potential to urbanize it's midtown area has fallen somewhat short. That being said, I still don't believe that Dallas is more urban, rather I believe the opposite. Houston's inner loop comes across as a much larger urban area than does midtown Dallas or anything in Dallas to me, but as you stated, it's just my opinion.

[troyboy]

but as you stated, it's just my opinion.

I'm glad you realize that.

[C2H]

The article stated that no outside companies are relocating. The only movement is downtown firms moving from 20 year old buildings to new ones. How do you figure downtown will fill up with relocated companies?

Empty space is empty space. If developers add 3 million feet of space in an area that has only filled up 2 million feet in 10 years, the vacancy rate can only go up. If downtown tennants are moving to uptown as downtown is trying to revitalize, there will be fewer potential customers for the new stores downtown. The streets will be emptier, and fewer investors will want to open in a downtown that is losing workers.

As for not looking different to tourists, if downtown is dead now, it will have tumbleweeds blowing through it later. Uptown may thrive, but how many hits can downtown take, before it gives up the ghost?

touche Red.

I have to hand it to Dallas though. Like someone said, they're not afraid to take risks. At the same time though, i can see why Dallas didn't want to handle any more of the Katrina evacuees. They build all these cool projects but when it comes time to give a helping hand, Big D comes up a little short

[dalparadise]

While it's nice that you haven't used your car in weeks, that doesn't necessarily mean a more urban area. With Houston's little 7.5 mile rail system, I can go the grocery store, museum, liquor store, church, bars, laundramat, cleaners, fast food joint, restaurants, movie's etc, etc. I do agree that Dallas is making good stride's in it's urbanization, and I also think that Houston's huge potential to urbanize it's midtown area has fallen somewhat short. That being said, I still don't believe that Dallas is more urban, rather I believe the opposite. Houston's inner loop comes across as a much larger urban area than does midtown Dallas or anything in Dallas to me, but as you stated, it's just my opinion.

Good post.

[troyboy]

Good post.

That is a great post and I'm glad you guys in Houston can do all of that in 7.5 miles. But unfortunately, I have more than 7.5 miles to go. I can use Dart rail to go visit friends in South Dallas (Oak Cliff) , Plano and Fort Worth and not use my car. Yesterday I rode the rail to work downtown, my dentist, the mall (Northpark), and the gym. And I can do this all in a reasonable timeframe...rather quickly. I know I could do this in Houston with the bus system (My cousin is a car-less student in Houston and he's always bumming rides because it simply take too long to do everything he needs to do by bus.) And soon I'll be able to ride the rail to both airports, Fair Park and Deep Ellum. I apologize for growing up on the east coast where having a car was somewhat optional and I would love to live in a city where I can easily get around without one...that's a huge part of urbanization, IMO. I simply hate driving if I don't have to. My parents retired to Sugarland, so I visit Houston often..and guess what...you need a car in Houston...desparately. So that's a huge factor of why I feel Dallas is more urban than Houston. I like Houston a great deal, in some ways more than Dallas, but regarding mass transit...Dallas simply kicks Houston's butt.

[Gary]

That is a great post and I'm glad you guys in Houston can do all of that in 7.5 miles. But unfortunately, I have more than 7.5 miles to go. I can use Dart rail to go visit friends in South Dallas (Oak Cliff) , Plano and Fort Worth and not use my car. Yesterday I rode the rail to work downtown, my dentist, the mall (Northpark), and the gym. And I can do this all in a reasonable timeframe...rather quickly. I know I could do this in Houston with the bus system (My cousin is a car-less student in Houston and he's always bumming rides because it simply take too long to do everything he needs to do by bus.) And soon I'll be able to ride the rail to both airports, Fair Park and Deep Ellum. I apologize for growing up on the east coast where having a car was somewhat optional and I would love to live in a city where I can easily get around without one...that's a huge part of urbanization, IMO. I simply hate driving if I don't have to. My parents retired to Sugarland, so I visit Houston often..and guess what...you need a car in Houston...desparately. So that's a huge factor of why I feel Dallas is more urban than Houston. I like Houston a great deal, in some ways more than Dallas, but regarding mass transit...Dallas simply kicks Houston's butt.

My point was not to compare Houston's rail to that of Dallas, it was to say that rail doesn't necessarily mean more urban.

Secondly, Your making DART sound like it's a wonderful transit system that appeals to all Dallasites, when in fact, the vast majority of Dallasites don't use it. In other words, Dallas is just about as car oriented as Houston.

[TexasStar]

...Secondly, Your making DART sound like it's a wonderful transit system that appeals to all Dallasites, when in fact, the vast majority of Dallasites don't use it...

No, I think he was just saying DART is better than what Houston has.

Seeing as how you guys are so much into comparisons.

[Gary]

No, I think he was just saying DART is better than what Houston has.

Seeing as how you guys are so much into comparisons.

C'mon, don't start. Again, I was in no way comparing our rail systems and I made that clear, or so I thought. In my last post I was simply stating that DART's lines are used by maybe 5% of the population, thus to call Houston a car oriented city is the pot calling the kettle black.

[troyboy]

^^^^^^

Thank you TS. That's exactly what I was saying. This is TEXAS and the whole idea of lightrail and mass transit is pretty new and scary to these car lovin' folks. And I never said it appealed to every Dallasite. I said I was able to go without my car...I don't know about everyone else. It's sad to say, but even cities with very good rail systems (which I feel DART is) still have daily traffic jams...Portland, New York, Seattle, Chicago...not just Dallas. But for the fourth largerst city in the U.S., Houston's mass transit should be way ahead of where it is. But Dallas has passed it, and once Austin's rail comes on line, it will probably surpass Houston also. And as far as light rail not being an indicator of urbanization, I'm trying to think of one U.S. city considered to be a model of urbanization that doesn't have some type of mass transit like rail or subway. I find it telling that cities that are trying to urbanize all see mass transit as a vital component.

[RedScare]

The thread topic was the 3 million square feet of new office space under construction in Uptown and Victory, and whether that would hurt Downtown's recovery. It was not about DART, and certainly not about METRO. The fact is, Dallas CBD is at 23.5% vacancy, as of July 2006. Companies are leaving Downtown to take space in Uptown and Victory. This is according to brokers in DALLAS, not somewhere else. New relocations are coming to Plano and North Dallas, not the CBD.

I cannot blame developers in Dallas for building in Uptown and Victory, if they are filling up those new buildings like they are. But, the question remains, who will fill up the buildings downtown if so many companies are leaving for these new buildings? The old buildings being retrofitted for residential have already been taken off the books. So, this 23.5% vacancy is actually based on a smaller amount of space.

Can anyone point to a source that shows new companies moving to the CBD? Optimism is all great, if we're rubber trees, but it doesn't spend very well. Is optimism by non-CEOs the only thing the Dallas CBD has going for it? Is downtown being left to the few pioneers willing to live there? Because, it looks like downtown is being abandoned by the people that matter...corporate CEOs. It appears that Downtown Dallas is shifting a couple of miles to the north...at least that's the way the Dallas Morning News is making it sound.

[Gary]

^^^^^^

Thank you TS. That's exactly what I was saying. This is TEXAS and the whole idea of lightrail and mass transit is pretty new and scary to these car lovin' folks. And I never said it appealed to every Dallasite. I said I was able to go without my car...I don't know about everyone else. It's sad to say, but even cities with very good rail systems (which I feel DART is) still have daily traffic jams...Portland, New York, Seattle, Chicago...not just Dallas. But for the fourth largerst city in the U.S., Houston's mass transit should be way ahead of where it is. But Dallas has passed it, and once Austin's rail comes on line, it will probably surpass Houston also. And as far as light rail not being an indicator of urbanization, I'm trying to think of one U.S. city considered to be a model of urbanization that doesn't have some type of mass transit like rail or subway. I find it telling that cities that are trying to urbanize all see mass transit as a vital component.

Geeez man, did you read my last two posts? Let me say it again... Having rail doesn't necessarily mean an area is more urban. Does it help? Of course. When I was making mention of Houston's rail, I was attempting to make the point that I could do all of the things you were describing Also. That is as long as everything I needed to do was within walking distance from my stops. This of course applies to Dallas as well. In other words, if your friends place wasn't off the rail line you would probably be driving. That would apply to almost every Dallasite.

Also in regards to my last post I was wondering why you seem to be slamming Houston as a car oriented city, when Dallas is just as car oriented. I'm waiting for you to respond in context.

[troyboy]

Geeez man, did you read my last two posts? Let me say it again... Having rail doesn't necessarily mean an area is more urban. Does it help? Of course. When I was making mention of Houston's rail, I was attempting to make the point that I could do all of the things you were describing Also. That is as long as everything I needed to do was within walking distance from my stops. This of course applies to Dallas as well. In other words, if your friends place wasn't off the rail line you would probably be driving. That would apply to almost every Dallasite.

Also in regards to my last post I was wondering why you seem to be slamming Houston as a car oriented city, when Dallas is just as car oriented. I'm waiting for you to respond in context.

I don't think I ever intentionally slammed Houston as a car oriented city. This a car loving state...Dallas is no exception. I was only saying I was lucky Dallas's has light rail that has evolved enough that someone who did not grow up in a car oriented area and doesn't really like to drive, can get to areas near and FAR from my home without sitting in traffic all day. And what's this?.. "if your friends place wasn't off the rail line you would probably be driving." Really? You think?? My whole point was I could visit them without driving because, thank goodness, DART LIGHT RAIL GOES THERE.

[JasonDFW]

The thread topic was the 3 million square feet of new office space under construction in Uptown and Victory, and whether that would hurt Downtown's recovery.

Actually, I don't believe that article stated that, which I alluded to before. The article is more about feelings that concisely stating raw numbers so it's tough to tell, but two of those buildings of the 6 I believe make up that number, are actually not in uptown or victory but the CBD.

And to your comment of what businesses are moving downtown, the headquarters of 7/11 is moving down there. I've seen in print or through employees (my next door neighbor for instance) of several law firms that they are heading down there as well. They've basically said they now feel they need to have a presence down there.

What I think you miss being hundreds of miles away, is the spillover effect (say from Victory) I see which directly impacts areas south of 30 that are the chief reason the CBD is not the prime spot it could be. In addition to any issues that area has on its own, you've got the huge gravitational force of the highest capacity airport in the world. That whole situation changed for the better with respect to downtown after the congressional vote Friday, and changes described in other threads you (and especially 2112) like to poke fun at are going to have an even larger effect on the CBD.

Jason

[Gary]

. And what's this?.. "if your friends place wasn't off the rail line you would probably be driving." Really? You think?? My whole point was I could visit them without driving because, thank goodness, DART LIGHT RAIL GOES THERE.

You don't have to be so facetious, I was not trying to get in a war with you. You initially we're making the point that Dallas was more urban because of MARTA, I on the other hand was attempting to point out that MARTA does not necessarily mean it's more urban than Houston. I've made my point as to why that is and you seem to want to pick a fight instead.

Let's just drop it.

[RedScare]

Actually, I don't believe that article stated that, which I alluded to before. The article is more about feelings that concisely stating raw numbers so it's tough to tell, but two of those buildings of the 6 I believe make up that number, are actually not in uptown or victory but the CBD.

And to your comment of what businesses are moving downtown, the headquarters of 7/11 is moving down there. I've seen in print or through employees (my next door neighbor for instance) of several law firms that they are heading down there as well. They've basically said they now feel they need to have a presence down there.

What I think you miss being hundreds of miles away, is the spillover effect (say from Victory) I see which directly impacts areas south of 30 that are the chief reason the CBD is not the prime spot it could be. In addition to any issues that area has on its own, you've got the huge gravitational force of the highest capacity airport in the world. That whole situation changed for the better with respect to downtown after the congressional vote Friday, and changes described in other threads you (and especially 2112) like to poke fun at are going to have an even larger effect on the CBD.

Jason

Jason, I agree that the article included under construction and planned buildings in it's estimate. 1.75 million sf is under construction, with 1.8 million sf planned. As for buildings in the CBD, they are all on the Woodall Rogers feeder road, with 7-11 going to the Arts District. This is about as far from the center of the CBD as one can get and still call it the CBD. In fact, 7-11's building is actually NORTH of American Airlines Center (by latitude), and EAST of Uptown.

The article also spoke of the many law firms that are moving to new space in Uptown, not Downtown. That is the question I am asking...is there any knowledgeable source that contradicts what is in the article?

As for missing the "spillover effect" of Victory and, I suppose, Uptown, it appears that the Dallas Morning News is missing it as well. Why is it that it is so clear to you and troyboy, yet the real estate writers at the DMN cannot see it?

And, can you show me a study or an article that suggests that an airport 25 miles Northwest of the CBD, and a future distribution center 25 miles Southeast of the CBD will cause the CBD to rebound? The DFW area is growing by leaps and bounds currently, but the CBD is shrinking.

I am not trying to dis you or downtown, but your logic flies in the face of the current facts, as well as historical trends. It just looks like the developers and tenants are leaving downtown to the dogs.